Anyone have experience with B&W subs?

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tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
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642
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The 45 day trial is definitely nice - and needed for the internet direct companies. Still a bit of a hassle since you have to lug a gigantic, 125 lb box around, but at least they're paying for it.

still not sure. I also get 45 days to return to Best Buy with no fee. Could always get one of each and compare them side by side....

It's a trade off. But the reason internet direct subs are more recommended is because it's better bang for your buck. Because they are internet direct only it means they can spend that savings on a better product.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
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642
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http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/asw-610xp/asw-610xp-measurements

asw610xpbasicresponse.jpg


That frequency response for $1200? Complete joke.

This is an SVS SB-1000 at less than half the price.

FR-SB-1000.jpg


If you can DIY as in the sense of gluing pieces of wood together a Martycube flatpack from chalugadp on AVS and an Ultimax 18 will get you ~116db @20Hz without breaking a sweat or your bank account.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1529375/martysub-flatpacks-veneer-speaker-stands

~$900 built would get you something along the red line on that graph with an inuke 3000.
ba75ca95_graph.png

Pretty much this.
If you're the type of person who would purchase a $3000 laptop over an equivalent $1500 one then get B&W. It's a name brand. If you aren't into branding, go with an internet direct company. internet direct companies compete on price/performance while name brand companies compete based on name recognition/marketing.

But like he just said, if you really actually care, you'll just build it yourself and get the most performance.

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um18-22-18-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-518
I'd get that if they were ever in stock and I wanted the best bang for my buck possible with an 18 inch sub. But well, there are TONS of people trying to get their hands on that sub, so I'd probably just pick up the UM15, a flatpack box, and some Duratex paint and make myself a plain black sub that will have amazing performance.

How it works is this:
Big name company : If you care about brand names, pick this. If you want the LEAST amount of hassle humanly possible and have a large company to blame if things go wrong, pick this. It's the worst performance.

Internet Direct Company: This is the best performance you'll get without having to actually get some tools out. But companies can go under meaning that sometimes, you'll be left out to dry with claiming a warranty (rare but it's happened).

DIY: Best performance, most work. But with a subwoofer box, it's the least timeconsuming/easiest thing. I think total actual time spent gluing the box can be an hour at most with an actual kit. Finishing your box to your liking is where you'll have an issue. If you want a gloss paint, chances are you'll be disappointed. But if you don't have a specific hard to do finish requirement then you'll be fine.
 

gus6464

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2005
1,848
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The reason I recommended Reaction Audio is because all their subs use Yung or Dayton plate amps which can be purchased at parts-express. One of the guys from the company has a long post on AVS about why they went this route and it's because they want to make sure that if they were to go under you can still get a replacement amp for their sub easily. I commend them for doing this. 99% of the time the thing that will go bad on a sub is the amp while the driver will last a very very long time. Now many companies have come and gone but SVS has been around for a very long time and odds are they are not going anywhere but they are not the supreme bang for buck they once where but still better than any name brand you get in a big box store.

Take a look at the Reaction PS 215X
http://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/ps-215x-powered-subwoofer

It uses this amp:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-spa1000-1000w-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-809

You know you are getting a good quality amp with that sub. Also with their 10% off coupon right now puts it at $1000 shipped for a damn nice sub.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/asw-610xp/asw-610xp-measurements

asw610xpbasicresponse.jpg


That frequency response for $1200? Complete joke.

This is an SVS SB-1000 at less than half the price.

FR-SB-1000.jpg

That does look nice, but 10x better? I wouldn't go that far, so you should probably settle down with the hyperbole. However, Audioholics has not reviewed the ASW 10CM, which is the one I was more considering anyway, and some of the difference between those two looks like the difference in curves between sealed and ported.

How it works is this:
Big name company : If you care about brand names, pick this. If you want the LEAST amount of hassle humanly possible and have a large company to blame if things go wrong, pick this. It's the worst performance.

Internet Direct Company: This is the best performance you'll get without having to actually get some tools out. But companies can go under meaning that sometimes, you'll be left out to dry with claiming a warranty (rare but it's happened).

DIY: Best performance, most work. But with a subwoofer box, it's the least timeconsuming/easiest thing. I think total actual time spent gluing the box can be an hour at most with an actual kit. Finishing your box to your liking is where you'll have an issue. If you want a gloss paint, chances are you'll be disappointed. But if you don't have a specific hard to do finish requirement then you'll be fine.

I'm sorry but this analysis is kinda over the top. "Worst performance", "need someone to blame if something goes wrong"...ok. You certainly pay more for name brands, but to insinuate that they're bad and the only reason to get one is to have someone to blame is hardly true.

I know that with a well known brand like B&W you're paying more for the name - but that doesn't mean it's a bad speaker. Like you said, you get a warranty. You actually have the opportunity to listen to the product before dropping a grand on it. It holds its value better should you decide to sell it at some point. These are tangible benefits.

Anyway, I am aware that B&W is overpriced which is part of why I posed this thread rather than just buying one - but so far, no one seems to actually have owned one, let alone a B&W and a competitor, which is unfortunate. My best bet may be what I posed earlier to Anubis.
 

gus6464

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2005
1,848
32
91
That does look nice, but 10x better? I wouldn't go that far, so you should probably settle down with the hyperbole. However, Audioholics has not reviewed the ASW 10CM, which is the one I was more considering anyway, and some of the difference between those two looks like the difference in curves between sealed and ported.

You realize it takes double the amplifier power per 3db output gain? For that B&W to achieve a 9db gain in output it would require 8x the base power it puts out. Problem is you would probably hit xmax long before dropping that kind of power into the thing.

BTW the SB1000 is a sealed sub so I don't know where you getting that it's a difference between ported and sealed.

In a HT environment the subsonic frequencies in HT soundtrack are felt more than they are heard. Reason being is because you will have a low pass filter set to 80Hz most likely and frequencies below that are very hard to localize with your hearing.

What on earth makes you think the 10CM will fare better? Have you even looked at the specs on the B&W website? It's the same exact thing with a shiny box. You are paying $300 for a glossy box.

It's your money dude so if you want to drop $1500 on an incredibly overpriced piss poor sub do it. Enjoy that glossy box and B&W sticker.
 
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tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
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That does look nice, but 10x better? I wouldn't go that far, so you should probably settle down with the hyperbole. However, Audioholics has not reviewed the ASW 10CM, which is the one I was more considering anyway, and some of the difference between those two looks like the difference in curves between sealed and ported.



I'm sorry but this analysis is kinda over the top. "Worst performance", "need someone to blame if something goes wrong"...ok. You certainly pay more for name brands, but to insinuate that they're bad and the only reason to get one is to have someone to blame is hardly true.

I know that with a well known brand like B&W you're paying more for the name - but that doesn't mean it's a bad speaker. Like you said, you get a warranty. You actually have the opportunity to listen to the product before dropping a grand on it. It holds its value better should you decide to sell it at some point. These are tangible benefits.

Anyway, I am aware that B&W is overpriced which is part of why I posed this thread rather than just buying one - but so far, no one seems to actually have owned one, let alone a B&W and a competitor, which is unfortunate. My best bet may be what I posed earlier to Anubis.

Way to take it personally. It's a general as possible summation. Worst performance when compared to diy and Internet direct companies is clearly what that means. And you know it.
And this "you never owned it so you don't know how it performs". There are parameters, On subs. Just like how we know how a certain processor performs without having owned it by knowing the architecture, you can know how a subwoofer will perform by knowing it's parameters.
You asked a question, the answer has been the same by everyone, get something else, and then you're upset with the answer? No one is forcing you to spend the money efficiently, get the b&w if it makes you happy man.
Edit: I really don't understand why everytime this type of thread comes up where someone asks for a recommendation from ht specialists about what type of sub to get, they'll simply ignore the advice of every poster. There are people trying to help someone from making a pretty large mistake. Take advice from people when it's given. I asked the same question on avs forum a couple of years ago. Difference was I took the time to learn/understand why people were saying what they said and how things worked. Learn a thing or two first, and you'll save yourself some cash and get what you need the first time around. But well, many people have to learn the hard way first and you wouldn't be the first person to come back looking for and
upgrade.
 
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Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
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Way to take it personally. It's a general as possible summation. Worst performance when compared to diy and Internet direct companies is clearly what that means. And you know it.
And this "you never owned it so you don't know how it performs". There are parameters, On subs. Just like how we know how a certain processor performs without having owned it by knowing the architecture, you can know how a subwoofer will perform by knowing it's parameters.
You asked a question, the answer has been the same by everyone, get something else, and then you're upset with the answer? No one is forcing you to spend the money efficiently, get the b&w if it makes you happy man.
Edit: I really don't understand why everytime this type of thread comes up where someone asks for a recommendation from ht specialists about what type of sub to get, they'll simply ignore the advice of every poster. There are people trying to help someone from making a pretty large mistake. Take advice from people when it's given. I asked the same question on avs forum a couple of years ago. Difference was I took the time to learn/understand why people were saying what they said and how things worked. Learn a thing or two first, and you'll save yourself some cash and get what you need the first time around. But well, many people have to learn the hard way first and you wouldn't be the first person to come back looking for and
upgrade.

Go back and read your post to which I replied - you took the subject matter and turned it into being about the buyer, not the product. I didn't make it personal.

You're misinterpreting my point about experience. It seems that, when I ask people about this subject, they either aren't terribly familiar with the internet direct companies, but are with bowers, or vice versa. I've yet to find someone, whether it's here or elsewhere, that has experience with both. And yes, those people I'm talking to that haven't heard of SVS are generally knowledgeable about the subject matter.

Your analogy to processors is an interesting one because we all know that specs don't tell the whole story. For starters, a processor with more cores or a higher clock speed isn't always the fastest, and even if a device uses a processor that benchmarks faster, that device doesn't always actually superior in all scenarios - which is why I was looking for personal experience, not just graphs. I'm not denying the specs; I've just already seen those.

You realize it takes double the amplifier power per 3db output gain? For that B&W to achieve a 9db gain in output it would require 8x the base power it puts out. Problem is you would probably hit xmax long before dropping that kind of power into the thing.

BTW the SB1000 is a sealed sub so I don't know where you getting that it's a difference between ported and sealed.

In a HT environment the subsonic frequencies in HT soundtrack are felt more than they are heard. Reason being is because you will have a low pass filter set to 80Hz most likely and frequencies below that are very hard to localize with your hearing.

What on earth makes you think the 10CM will fare better? Have you even looked at the specs on the B&W website? It's the same exact thing with a shiny box. You are paying $300 for a glossy box.

It's your money dude so if you want to drop $1500 on an incredibly overpriced piss poor sub do it. Enjoy that glossy box and B&W sticker.

Sorry I thought you posted PB1000. Anyway, the 600 and CM lines aren't just different boxes, hell, you can physically see that they are different cones. I did listen to the 600 vs CM centers pretty extensively before choosing there, and those certainly sounded very different, which is why I have reason to believe the CM fares better. Did someone at B&W steal your dog or something? You seem very upset that some dude on the internet won't take your word that they make the worst speakers on the market.
 
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gus6464

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2005
1,848
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Sorry I thought you posted PB1000. Anyway, the 600 and CM lines aren't just different boxes, hell, you can physically see that they are different cones. I did listen to the 600 vs CM centers pretty extensively before choosing there, and those certainly sounded very different, which is why I have reason to believe the CM fares better. Did someone at B&W steal your dog or something? You seem very upset that some dude on the internet won't take your word that they make the worst speakers on the market.

Please point where I said that all B&W speakers are garbage. Also I never said that the 600 series and CM series speakers are the same. I said that the 610XP and CM10 subs are the same which they absolutely are. The speakers are not identical but the subs sure as hell are. For some reason you seem to be stuck thinking that I have something against B&W when it's actually quite the opposite. If you read the other speaker thread you would see that my favorite speaker is the B&W 802D. It is one of the best engineered speakers on the planet. The 805D2 and PM1 are also superb and much closer to the realm of attainability for a lot of people.

There is a reason why manufacturers like Velodyne and JL exist. If you walked into a high end HT shop and told the guy you had 20k to blow on a full HT I bet you 90% of them would never recommend you a sub from the same manufacturer as the speakers. That is because with pretty much every single big box speaker manufacturer out there the sub is an afterthought.

Also did you even bother to read the specs on the 610XP and CM10? They are word for word identical. Hell even the boxes are identical in size cept for the CM10 being half an inch shorter in depth. If anything I would say the 610XP is a better sub as it has beefier rubber surround so it might have a higher excursion so it should take a bit more power.

BTW I would be telling you the same thing if you said you wanted a Focal, KEF, Monitor Audio, etc. sub. That their subs are stupidly overpriced for what you get. The only manufacturer I have encountered that at least cares somewhat about their subs is Definitive Technology. Even then I would still direct you to an ID sub maker.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
even the def tecs are over priced for what they are, the Supercube reference is a prime example of this.

edit: its not made anymore but my point still stands
 

gus6464

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2005
1,848
32
91
even the def tecs are over priced for what they are, the Supercube reference is a prime example of this.

edit: its not made anymore but my point still stands

Exactly. I just mentioned Def Tech because at the end of the day even the supercubes are superior to those B&W subs.

OP is stuck on the mentality that one buys subs the same way you buy speakers which is far from the case. You can know how a sub will sound and perform by looking at the measured specs.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
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Please point where I said that all B&W speakers are garbage. Also I never said that the 600 series and CM series speakers are the same. I said that the 610XP and CM10 subs are the same which they absolutely are. The speakers are not identical but the subs sure as hell are. For some reason you seem to be stuck thinking that I have something against B&W when it's actually quite the opposite. If you read the other speaker thread you would see that my favorite speaker is the B&W 802D. It is one of the best engineered speakers on the planet. The 805D2 and PM1 are also superb and much closer to the realm of attainability for a lot of people.

Look at the product page for the 610XP and the 10CM. Look at the picture. Ignore the box, just look at the speaker itself.

Does this …
ASW610XP_Black_OFF.jpg


… really look like it "sure as hell is" identical …

ASW-10CM_Gloss-Black_OFF.jpg


… to this? I'm not arguing the specs - just use your eyes. Does that look like an identical speaker to you? Maybe they're similar, maybe they even use the same amp. Certainly could be. But "identical"? Clearly not.

Also did you even bother to read the specs on the 610XP and CM10? They are word for word identical. Hell even the boxes are identical in size cept for the CM10 being half an inch shorter in depth. If anything I would say the 610XP is a better sub as it has beefier rubber surround so it might have a higher excursion so it should take a bit more power.

So again, they're identical, except for when they're not.

BTW I would be telling you the same thing if you said you wanted a Focal, KEF, Monitor Audio, etc. sub. That their subs are stupidly overpriced for what you get. The only manufacturer I have encountered that at least cares somewhat about their subs is Definitive Technology. Even then I would still direct you to an ID sub maker.

I listened to this sub at Best Buy, they had it right next to the 10CM: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/definiti...ofer&cp=1&lp=8

It did sound pretty good, but not as good as the B&W, at least in their setup in a Magnolia room, whatever that’s worth.

Exactly. I just mentioned Def Tech because at the end of the day even the supercubes are superior to those B&W subs.

OP is stuck on the mentality that one buys subs the same way you buy speakers which is far from the case. You can know how a sub will sound and perform by looking at the measured specs.

I'm not "stuck" in that mentality. If I were stuck in that mentality I wouldn't have posted this thread, I would have just gone out and bought the B&W. If you read through, the only person I'm really arguing with is you, which seems to be what you want anyway. All you've done in this thread is attack my system, be derisive, and employ excessive hyperbole to make your point. You say you can find 10 subs that are "10x better" than the B&W, which you haven't done. You say the 610XP and 10CM are "identical", which they aren't. I’m just responding to those claims, which really aren’t adding anything to the discussion.

I'm not disagreeing that someone like SVS makes a very good sub, possibly as good or better, certainly for less money. Again, if you read, you'd see that my issue with ID companies isn't the quality of their product – it’s the fact that I'm supposed to buy it without hearing it first. You say you know these things from the specs - well, if I were an audiophile that could do such things, I wouldn't be posting asking for advice, would I? Plus, not every room is the same. Maybe the SB13-Ultra is the best in this price range, and maybe you can really notice its superiority in a 5,000 square foot theater room with cathedral ceilings - but that's not my room. The customer service people there recommended the PB-2000 or dual PB-1000s anyway. Specs and charts aside, maybe my ear just prefers something different than your ear. These are all reasons why it's advantageous to actually listen to a sub before you buy it. The 45 day return policy helps with that, but you still have to deal with potentially crating up and sending back a 150 lb box, that you already precariously lugged into your basement.

I do have the option of doing what I suggested earlier - buying the B&W and the SVS, and returning the one that loses. If all goes as you say it will, that means the B&W goes back - which, hey, is easier! Small box + a 5 minute drive to the store! But what if the question, then, becomes SVS vs Rhythmik vs Epik? Now you've got the same issue to contend with, except they're all ID companies. It's just not an ideal shopping experience. I realize that that shopping experience is part of WHY they're better for the money. It's a trade off. This is why I was hoping to find people more experienced with both, unfortunately, I have not yet. That’s all.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
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even the def tecs are over priced for what they are, the Supercube reference is a prime example of this.

edit: its not made anymore but my point still stands

I don't think they are overpriced esp. compared to their higher end peers.

There is R&D and customer service things that go into this.

My first home theater in 1995 was Def Tech BP20s, CLR1000, BP10's, Def Tech 15" sub, Rotel amps and preamp, marantz for CDs, Mitsubishi for VCR and their 35" Corian topped TV at the time....(have no idea why they topped it with Corian).
 

giantpandaman2

Senior member
Oct 17, 2005
580
11
81
Eww, just looking at the volume of the cones (or lack thereof) of those drivers on the B&W subs tells me they're going to be wimpy.

Is $600-1000 worth it for the ideal shopping experience? That's everyone's choice.

Epik is out of business. Both Rhythmik and SVS make very good subs for the money. Really can't go wrong with either one.

Honestly, people just need to understand there will always be tradeoffs. Like B&W, then get it. Sure you could have gotten more for your money, but you had the shopping experience you wanted. Prefer long term value over shopping experience? Go internet direct. In either case, you can't bitch about the other.

Broad brush or not, any subwoofer bought through the dealer system is not going to have the same value as a good ID subwoofer maker. No matter how good a customer service the ID company has, it can't equal the experience of a knowledgeable dealer/showroom.
 

gus6464

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2005
1,848
32
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Funny thing how a cheap $65 Infinity driver looks much better built than the driver in that $1500 box.

$65 driver
41567188_IMG_0852.jpeg

60dd76f8_IMG_0853.jpeg


No matter how good a customer service the ID company has, it can't equal the experience of a knowledgeable dealer/showroom.

You honestly think he dealt with someone knowledgeable at Best Buy?
 
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gar655

Senior member
Mar 4, 2008
565
0
71
The reason no one can answer your question is that no one in their right mind would pay $1500 for that B&W sub, so no one owns one. At least here and on the audio forums where people know better.

And your room size doesn't mean you can't take advantage of what a SVS SB13 Utlra can provide. You don't HAVE to turn the volume up. the advantages of a sub like the Ultra can be heard at low volumes as well.

It's no contest between even the SB1000 or SB2000 and the B&W let alone comparing it to the SB13 Ultra.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
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Funny thing how a cheap $65 Infinity driver looks much better built than the driver in that $1500 box.

$65 driver
41567188_IMG_0852.jpeg

60dd76f8_IMG_0853.jpeg

...and you say I'm the one impressed with shiny things. :rolleyes:

You honestly think he dealt with someone knowledgeable at Best Buy?

I didn't talk to anyone that worked at Best Buy about their opinion on speakers. I have, however, talked to a guy that used to work at Magnolia (the real one, pre-Best Buy) and another that sold speakers for Myer Emco. The former recommended the B&W, the latter said arguably the B&W was the smoothest sub they sold but he would recommend Velodyne as a better value.

Anyway, remember n my last post when I said insinuated that you're not trying to be helpful, you're just trying to be derisive, pick fights, and talk trash? I'd recommend you re-read your last post as a prime example. Go pick a fight somewhere else.
 
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Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
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The reason no one can answer your question is that no one in their right mind would pay $1500 for that B&W sub, so no one owns one. At least here and on the audio forums where people know better.

And your room size doesn't mean you can't take advantage of what a SVS SB13 Utlra can provide. You don't HAVE to turn the volume up. the advantages of a sub like the Ultra can be heard at low volumes as well.

It's no contest between even the SB1000 or SB2000 and the B&W let alone comparing it to the SB13 Ultra.

Even the sales people at svs said the SB13-ultra or PB12-plus would be overkill for my space.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
19,723
6,805
136
Is that the 608? How do you like it?

I like it very much. I use it in the 2.1 setup you can see in my sig. It might not be the deepest, but I bought it primarily for listening to music, for which (after the right calibration) I think it does a really good job, and the smaller bass might be a bit faster than the larger domes.

It's still does a good job for rumbling in movies, and is perfect for my needs. I live in an old apartment building, so I also have to consider my neighbors.

I've had a 12" Cerwin Vega Sub, and this is better in every regards.

I think this review pretty much sums it up.
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/au...i-fi-and-av-speakers/b-w-asw608-423217/review
 
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tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
OP, we want to help you. We all really do but if you really want to learn/make the best choice for your money you have to be open to what we're saying and try to understand.

The best analogy I have to what you're asking is it's basically like saying
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/desktop...x-series/x510/
"Has anyone had experience with this PC and is it a good purchase for the price?"

Now if I told you there was a better PC for the money would you ignore that statement because I've never owned that specific PC?

Now we can tell what PC is better for what task or if it's better at all tasks based on parameters/specs. We know that AMD's Kabini will be destroyed by Intel's Haswell, but we also know that they're not competing in the same market. We know that you can find a Mercedes with similar performance as a Hyundai and that yes, the Mercedes cost more and looks better, has a couple more features sometimes but that most of the worth is in the name brand (and I'm a Mercedes enthusiast as well and I'll admit that the money could be spent elsewhere but Mercedes is just what I like).

We'll try and explain it to you as best as we can as to why your choice of a B&W sub isn't an optimal choice. But either you can A) believe/trust us (Everyone has agreed the B&W isn't the best choice so it's not like there are varying opinions really), or you can B) do your own research and learn everything there is to learn about subwoofers/speakers.

I recommend A if you don't plan on making this a hobby. I took route B) last year when I purchased my Polk Audio towers and Klispch RW-12D sub. I didn't want to learn too much, but took the advice of forum users on avsforum. I later came back to learn more once I got the "bug" as people call it I guess. Learned more and I was at the SAME crossroad you were except with speakers. Route B is hard and time consuming and there is so much to learn about how sound works that unless you really love home theater and spend lots of time on it, it's not worth learning.
-----------------------------
Also on a side note, I just can't help myself and I don't mean to insult you but the reason that infinity speaker was shown to you had nothing to do with it's annoying shine (which is the reason it's actually not recommended is because of it's shine). It's because of the actual build quality of the subwoofer. It's hard to actually understand the point he's trying to show unless you've seen the speakers/subs in other companies. Even my B&W speakers right now that I just tore apart to repair so I can sell them, the internals of those compared to the DIY kit I have ordered is ridiculous.

Anyway, I've really tried to help you understand OP in many ways as possible throughout this thread. I really would like you to pick something you'll enjoy/get the maximum experience from the first time around. I feel lots of us in this thread are posting because that's how we feel. This hobby is great, and we want others to get the same enjoyment out of it we do. It's easy to just let you make a choice and take the B&W because ignorance is bliss. We have ALL thrown away money in this thread on less optimal choices. We are speaking from experience.

But sometimes, you really do have to learn for yourself.

I hope you'll listen to the advice we have all tried to give you here. Or I hope you'll at least head over to AVSForum and ask over there as well and get the same answers and maybe someone will explain it in a way that clicks with you.

Edit:

I just read post #36 of yours and I think I understand your issue. You're just worried that you can't hear each sub first which is why many of us have purchased these subs and have written reviews and done measurements online. So when you ask whether SVS, HSU, or Epik is better, we do have those numbers actually as well as TONS of listening experience from members. Google "Avsforum shootout" or just head to the subwoofer section and start browsing. If I could link you to the threads I would but I don't remember the name to google for them. I've read hundreds of those types of threads because I was in the same position you were. I didn't know how I could compare subs/speakers I could hear, to those I didn't.

I'd say the most eye opening experience though was reading threads on AVSForum of people tearing down their speakers. Just taking them apart to compare the internals of speakers like B&W, Polk Audio, etc. compared to Internet Direct companies internals. Then, seeing those internals, and comparing them to the DIY market or the "Assemble it yourself" market (which I prefer since I'm not genius with woodworking/eletrical stuff). As you move from each market, the internals change and get much better and the product gets much better.

Really though, when you compare speakers/subs you'll want to compare to similar companies. So we know that HSU/SVS > B&W/Polk/(A lot of companies I don't undderstand why so many companies make bad subwoofers...) but you want the comparison of B&W vs Polk or HSU vs SVS. For that, we have lots of posts on AVSForum about it.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1367811/subwoofer-shootout-subwoofer-roundup-url-lists

That's a megathread of subwoofer shootouts.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012

That one above is a specific shootout. One of the first subwoofer comparison threads I read on internet direct companies.
 
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Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Tential I do appreciate the advice and I am listening - the only person responding here to which that is not the case is gus, for the aforementioned reasons. Please don't take the fact that I'm rebuffing his attempts to be a superior, derisive person not really interested in helping anyone, as me ignoring everone. And the only reason I mocked him for the shiny sub is because he thinks the only reason to get a CM sub is the shiny box. I was just turning his nonsense around.

Anyway, your laptop analogy still works the way I'm saying. If you compare an Apple and Acer laptop with similar specs, the Acer will undoubtedly perform as well or better for less money. That doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons / preferences to go Apple, and that those reasons can extend beyond the shiny aluminum case, and if you haven't used MacOS it's hard to have a legitimate, real world opinion as to all of its merits and detriments.

And no - I would not buy an Apple laptop.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
On a side note.
I placed an order for:
Dayton 15 Ultimax
NU-4 6000 (no dsp yes I'm cheap and I know I'll want one later)
Knockdown box for the 15 Ultimax (3 CU FT, I have another 4 CU FT box halfway finished just need to make the subwoofer cutout. Going to test a paint job on the 3 CU ft box first though before I mess up my own 4 CU box that I made)

Placed that on 3/24. Forgot about it, thought it was canceled, just got the shipping confirmation yesterday. Can't wait to say goodbye to my Klipsch RW-12D. Wish I had understood that reviews for speakers/subs on amazon/casual home theater users are pointless for enthusiasts. Had no where near the output I actually wanted. Great subwoofer, but well as any person here probably knows, you can never have enough bass.

Can't wait to order the second one by the end of this year.

Just need those Volt Coaxials from DIYSoundgroup now and those Tux-1099s later down the road and I'll be set.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
Tential I do appreciate the advice and I am listening - the only person responding here to which that is not the case is gus, for the aforementioned reasons. Please don't take the fact that I'm rebuffing his attempts to be a superior, derisive person not really interested in helping anyone, as me ignoring everone. And the only reason I mocked him for the shiny sub is because he thinks the only reason to get a CM sub is the shiny box. I was just turning his nonsense around.

Anyway, your laptop analogy still works the way I'm saying. If you compare an Apple and Acer laptop with similar specs, the Acer will undoubtedly perform as well or better for less money. That doesn't mean there aren't legitimate reasons / preferences to go Apple, and that those reasons can extend beyond the shiny aluminum case, and if you haven't used MacOS it's hard to have a legitimate, real world opinion as to all of its merits and detriments.

And no - I would not buy an Apple laptop.

So in response to that "There are legitimate reasons to get the Apple."
Yes, there are because it's different OSes. But that doesn't apply to subwoofers so it's a flawed analogy. The best way I can explain this though is to say you can get two laptops with the SAME hardware. Put mac on one and call it an apple and put windows on one and call it an acer. So they will perform different. This is similar to hooking up your subwoofer to a onkyo receiver and using audyssey to calibrate it vs hooking it up to yamaha and using ypao (however you say their auto calibration system).

The best analogy is the analogy I gave in that post. That post uses a Lenovo gaming desktop. Look at the specs of that Gaming desktop. You can find a gaming desktop for 1.25k that will demolish that desktop. Yet some people will still purchase the Lenovo gaming desktop because Lenovo is a brand they know and trust. It's peace of mind. Also, Lenovo probably has a longer warranty and a more REILABLE warranty. Some internet direct companies have some ridiculous warranty policies (none which we have recommended you as most of those companies have died out).

So when you look at the Lenovo Gaming Desktop, you can beat it out by going with another company like ibuypower (or some other internet direct company) or beat it out by going DIY.

I dunno how many more analogies I can really give you but the main point is just extremely clear. When it comes to subwoofers B&W just doesn't make good subs for the money. And it's not like we're picking on B&W or anything, it's a number of commercial brands. In fact, the only subwoofer that you can easily find in stores that is regularly recommended is the Klipsch RW-12D.

Edit: But analogies aside since that's what we've been discussing, the whole point is quite simple. There isn't a good reason to get the B&W sub over equivalent options. Just plain and simple. I wish I could give you a good reason that the B&W would shine it but there isn't a category. Unless you count being small as a win, but there are still subs that are just as small, with the same performance at a lower cost. It just is how it is. What I've learned over the years with this is that it's REALLY easy to sell bad audio products. I can look back at the products I've bought and it just makes me feel swindled a bit. I wish I could say it in a way that would make you understand it the way the users in this thread do but I don't know if we can.

http://www.avsforum.com/f/155/diy-speakers-and-subs

I read hear for about 6 months or so. I started at around your knowledge level which I understand where you are coming from and the amount of frustration it is trying to understand WHY a product is better than another one, especially in audio, and you think "well, there has to be a reason why people would get that?" and trust me, you can try to figure it out. But post on there for a bit, you'll get other forum members who are engineers who are able to explain it to you in better words than I can and you'll realize why so many internet direct companies popped up.

The short thing though is that simply put. Commercial offerings didn't give enthusiasts what we wanted so smaller internet direct companies started up that actually would cater to us.
I suggest though that you pick up the B&W sub if it has a return policy. Then, pick up a cheap sub that is recommended/highly praised like the Klipsch RW-12D (There is a new model don't know what it's called). You can most likely find both locally. Sit down and listen to both and you'll see.

But well, it's impossible for us to 100% convince you of this without listening to it yourself as I can kind of tell that you're that type of person and that's perfectly fine. I feel like you have to learn for yourself and I learned it myself picking up the Klipsch RW-12D. Now that I've heard other subs in comparison to it, and know how DIY subs sound to it, and will soon have my DIY Dayton 15 Ultimax system up to again compare to it, I've realized that there is a reason why thousands of internet users all agree about things like this but I think you may have to first see for yourself. But I'd at least go with a cheaper offering lol. Don't learn this lesson on a $1500 purchase. Learn it on a $300 one like I did.
 
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