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Another nail in Crucial/Micron's coffin.

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That's what "free shipping" does to companies. They make no money or lose money on "free shipping" deals. Every company is playing the waiting game to see who will fall out of the race. It's like amazon. They played the waiting game for like 5 years and then tons of companies got out of the market.

Amazon had venture capital to stay in business. Micron doesn't.

Amazon sells a huge assortment of stuff. Micron only sells one thing: Dram.

Amazon is losing 10-30 million a quarter (though recently they posted a PROFIT). Micron is losing HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS per quarter, as is Hyundai and Infineon.

If dram prices keep going the way they're going, "Shipping" will be the biggest cost associated with DRAM. It'll cost more to ship the stuff than it will to manufacture it.


 
I just want to say that this is one of the most interesting threads that I have seen here.

I have certainly reconsidered my opinion about Rambus. It's just too bad that their memory is so expensive. I just checked, and I can get 512MB of PC2100-R for $150 from Crucial, or $115 from Kingston.

That's a shame.
 
For server and high end workstation, it is entirely arbitrary to the processor's raw power. DEC Alpha's were the most powerful CPU's when they were at their peak. DEC just expected its raw performance would be the sole marketing point, however, they were dead wrong. Now, the Alphas are going to die out. With Alpha and HP's PA procs being phased out in favor of Itanium, I think the Itanium has a lot going for it.
 
Originally posted by: dexvx
For server and high end workstation, it is entirely arbitrary to the processor's raw power. DEC Alpha's were the most powerful CPU's when they were at their peak. DEC just expected its raw performance would be the sole marketing point, however, they were dead wrong. Now, the Alphas are going to die out. With Alpha and HP's PA procs being phased out in favor of Itanium, I think the Itanium has a lot going for it.

Pretty hasty prediction considering HP *just* started selling them. The EV7 is new technology. It's NOT meant as a competitor to Itanium.

This is targeted at an entirely different market segment than Itanium. The EV7 is aimed towards biomedical research sciences where extremely fast computing is required regardless of cost.

The point I was making is that DDR doesn't cut it here. But interestingly, RDRAM does. And everyone had the chance to make this memory the *STANDARD*, but JEDEC ruined it for everyone. Instead, the key players decided to try and Squash rambus' patents in court rather than pay a tiny royalty. Probably since they were too proud to admit that they couldn't do a better job themselves.

Oh well. Look at 'em now 🙂
 
100% BS. The cost of manufacturing SDRAM has been comparable for 3 years. In fact, it was on par with SDRAM pricing back in the day. It is now MORE EXPENSIVE to manufacture DDR, hence the HUGE losses by the Dramurai.

Reducing RDRAM core size by 8 percent will not make the die size ? a key factor in determining manufacturing cost ? equal to that of lower-cost SDRAMs, which can be more than 20 percent smaller than 800-MHz RDRAMs. But to Toshiba, it is a step in the right direction to make RDRAMs a mainstream product.


From EETimes 3 years ago.

Back in 2001, Samsung got it down even cheaper. They also noted that RDRAM added a cost of "around $100 to the cost of a PC" versus SDRAM (not DDR, just plain ole SDRAM). That margin is even less today. Is DDR cheaper? Sure! How can it not be when it's selling at a huge loss? But is that the answer to the semiconductor industry? I think not. How long can this go on?


i dont know if its just me, but i dont understand what you are trying to say.

but, what i was saying was that, back in the beginning DDR was cheaper. Not after making revisions! Plus, what about buying the equipment to manufacter the memory. Also, you have to buy them in pairs. 2 rimm sticks WAS too expensive, point!

And another point, I love how you attribute all the companies losses to only manufacturing DDR. What about court and lawyer expenses, etc. please show the direct relation of the losses you posted with the manufacturing cost that is causing them the loss!


Well, they needed something faster than SDRAM at the time, and DDR was nowhere in sight at the launch of the P4. Leave it to JEDEC to slow things down for everyone.

I thought DDR boards were first to sell on the market.. i could be wrong on this one. Could you give me some date.
And another thing, even if you are right about this point, what was stopping intel from using it when DDR did come out??????????


Or maybe right here. Not looking very rosy, eh? Especially when everyone was going on and on about how "Microsoft is behind X86-64 all the way".... The truth *IS* out there, but it's not as pretty as everyone thinks.

your article only supports what i say! ???? heres a clip:

"A Microsoft executive would only say that a version supporting Opteron's 64-bit capabilities will come sometime after that launch and before the next major release of the OS code-named Black Home. "We haven't been able to settle on what that [64-bit Operton OS] product will look like, what the schedule will be or how we will announce it yet," said Bob O'Brien, group product manager for Microsoft's Windows Server division. O'Brien said he expects Microsoft ultimately will support the 64-bit Opteron features in a manner similar to how it first supported Itanium, with an interim release product specific to that CPU. One observer said that product could come later this year or in 2004."(EEtimes - http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20030320S0053)
 
i dont know if its just me, but i dont understand what you are trying to say.

but, what i was saying was that, back in the beginning DDR was cheaper. Not after making revisions! Plus, what about buying the equipment to manufacter the memory. Also, you have to buy them in pairs. 2 rimm sticks WAS too expensive, point!

Right, but the reasons were completely artificial. Just like DDR's cheap price now is artificial. From Micron's latest quarterly filing with the SEC

Gross Margin

The Company's gross margin has been significantly impacted by the timing of inventory write-downs. In recent periods, average selling prices for the Company's semiconductor products have been below manufacturing costs, and accordingly the Company's results of operations, cash flows and financial condition have been adversely affected.


So.... the bottom line is: Micron is selling their products at a price lower than what it costs to manufacture them. Right there in black and white.

And another point, I love how you attribute all the companies losses to only manufacturing DDR. What about court and lawyer expenses, etc. please show the direct relation of the losses you posted with the manufacturing cost that is causing them the loss!

See above. As far as Micron goes, they have not yet seen their day in court with Rambus. However, they are under investigation by the FTC for price fixing and dumping. But as their 10Q statement clearly shows, they are losing money as a result of their products being sold below manufacturing cost.

I thought DDR boards were first to sell on the market.. i could be wrong on this one. Could you give me some date.
And another thing, even if you are right about this point, what was stopping intel from using it when DDR did come out??????????

The first Rambus chipset was the i820 and the i840 for workstations in late 1999. They were out LONG before DDR hit the scene.

Intel *DID* support DDR for the P4 with the 845D chipset. Nothing was "stopping" intel from doing so, just like nothing was stopping them from supporting SDRAM. The first DDR chipsets didn't come around until 2001. This is why Intel originally wanted Rambus to be the dominant memory. They were way ahead of JEDEC.

"A Microsoft executive would only say that a version supporting Opteron's 64-bit capabilities will come sometime after that launch and before the next major release of the OS code-named Black Home."

That's a LONG way away. Either way, I don't see the opteron/Athlon64 going anywhere in the market except for a tiny percentage of "enthusiasts".



 
Originally posted by: Ice9


That's a LONG way away. Either way, I don't see the opteron/Athlon64 going anywhere in the market except for a tiny percentage of "enthusiasts".
Like the Itanium/Itanium 2 has done better... Just wait and see.

 
Originally posted by: Ice9
Originally posted by: dexvx
For server and high end workstation, it is entirely arbitrary to the processor's raw power. DEC Alpha's were the most powerful CPU's when they were at their peak. DEC just expected its raw performance would be the sole marketing point, however, they were dead wrong. Now, the Alphas are going to die out. With Alpha and HP's PA procs being phased out in favor of Itanium, I think the Itanium has a lot going for it.

Pretty hasty prediction considering HP *just* started selling them. The EV7 is new technology. It's NOT meant as a competitor to Itanium.

This is targeted at an entirely different market segment than Itanium. The EV7 is aimed towards biomedical research sciences where extremely fast computing is required regardless of cost.

Oh well. Look at 'em now 🙂

HP and Compaq own PA RISC and DEC, respectively. The next generation EV8 has already been transferred for next generation Itanium design. The PA RISC has not had a significant change in ... 10 years? Based on HP roadmaps, it will die out in the next 5-10 years. With HP investing so heavily in Itanium, it would be stupid to have it compete with their own in house design. They are clearly paving the way for Itanium as the Alpha and PA RISC sucessor.

And BTW, at peak FPU, a 1Ghz McKinley can beat a 1.25Ghz EV7 Alpha. Many firms choose to stay with PA RISC and Alpha simply because their existing systems are that.

There is nothing illegal about dumping memory prices below cost. It is more or less competition, but at the current rate, a lot of companies will be bankrupt. Instead of complaining, im buying.

Like the Itanium/Itanium 2 has done better... Just wait and see.

It has done quite well. Far exceeding the expectations of many execs (granted those were conservative expectations).
 
Originally posted by: SeekingTao
Originally posted by: Ice9


That's a LONG way away. Either way, I don't see the opteron/Athlon64 going anywhere in the market except for a tiny percentage of "enthusiasts".
Like the Itanium/Itanium 2 has done better... Just wait and see.

The Itanium isn't targeted at people's desktops.
 
HP and Compaq own PA RISC and DEC, respectively. The next generation EV8 has already been transferred for next generation Itanium design. The PA RISC has not had a significant change in ... 10 years? Based on HP roadmaps, it will die out in the next 5-10 years. With HP investing so heavily in Itanium, it would be stupid to have it compete with their own in house design. They are clearly paving the way for Itanium as the Alpha and PA RISC sucessor.

Yeah, that's fine and all.. but we're talking 5 to 10 years from now. The EV7 and the Cray X1 both use: RDRAM.

There is nothing illegal about dumping memory prices below cost. It is more or less competition, but at the current rate, a lot of companies will be bankrupt. Instead of complaining, im buying.

But there *IS* something illegal about price collusion, and that's what the FTC investigation is about. There's hard evidence that collusion is what made DDR the standard. However, there is ZERO evidence that Rambus did anything anticompetitive as the FTC has accused. In fact, all evidence speaks to the contrary. I have absolutely no doubt that Rambus will ultimately prevail against the FTC (though I think it will take an appeal to do it). I also have absolutely no doubt that the companies currently stealing their property will eventually have to pay up - if they're still in business to do so.
 
But there *IS* something illegal about price collusion, and that's what the FTC investigation is about. There's hard evidence that collusion is what made DDR the standard. However, there is ZERO evidence that Rambus did anything anticompetitive as the FTC has accused. In fact, all evidence speaks to the contrary. I have absolutely no doubt that Rambus will ultimately prevail against the FTC (though I think it will take an appeal to do it). I also have absolutely no doubt that the companies currently stealing their property will eventually have to pay up - if they're still in business to do so.

Collusion is rather hard to prove isnt it? If 1 major DRAM manufacturer lowered their price, others would have to oblige, otherwise they wouldnt be selling any DRAM.

Yeah, that's fine and all.. but we're talking 5 to 10 years from now. The EV7 and the Cray X1 both use: RDRAM.

It doesnt matter... the DECs and PA RISCs will both be extinct soon.

But the most important thing: Buy or Sell RMBS now?
 
Originally posted by: SeekingTao
Originally posted by: Ice9
Originally posted by: Bonesdad
Micron is based in my hometown of Boise Idaho. They are a MAJOR employer here...and Crucial is NOT Micron. Crucial is a small division of Micron. I don't wish any ill on Micron or Crucial. They make quality product.


Crucial is MICRON'S LARGEST OUTLET for DRAM. They are 100% Micron. If Micron goes, Crucial goes. Quality product or not, they are dying an ugly death, and those bastards deserve it.

If you drove a Chevy would hate Ford that much too? Yours is a case of brand loyalty taken to the extreme Ice9.

How can you call them bastards? I think you're the bastard. Without Crucial i'm sure atleast 50% of the people on these boards would have had to go elsewhere with their memory. There aren't too many places you can find quality memory for crucial prices.

Bill
 
Collusion is rather hard to prove isnt it? If 1 major DRAM manufacturer lowered their price, others would have to oblige, otherwise they wouldnt be selling any DRAM.

Leave that to the lawyers. There's apparently evidence that it happened.

But the most important thing: Buy or Sell RMBS now?

If you mean from an "investment strategy", I'd wait for a few things to happen.

First off, the FTC case could go either way.

If the FTC grants Rambus summary judgement based on the proof they've presented in their pre-trial motions, their stock will shoot up to 20-30 overnight since the fight is essentially over.

Of course, the FTC could reject every legal precedent and evidence that Rambus has presented during the pre-trial motions, and eventually rule against Rambus. If the summary motion isn't granted by the ALJ, you can be 100% sure that Rambus will lose. Should this happen, the stock will likely tank to 5, and THAT'S when you should buy. Since the CAFC will wind up with another Rambus case that has prior precedents set, the verdict will be overturned practically overnight.

Thus far in the preliminary motions phase, the FTC has been denied both requests (the first to grant a summary default judgement against Rambus, the 2nd to depose Richard Crisp, who they claim is a key witness in this case.

Rambus recently admitted evidence showing that Mitsubishi Electronics (MELCO) brought up the fact that SDRAM was infringing on Rambus' 1990 patents, and that the panel members chose to ignore it and try to force Rambus to make it public domain. They also provided proof that all the companies who are not paying royalties today all signed NDA's with regards to Rambus technology back in 1990, well before they were invited to JEDEC.

The bottom line is that no reasonable person could find Rambus guilty of anything. If this judge doesn't dismiss this case (or if the FTC doesn't drop theirs), Rambus will lose regardless of how long the trial takes. It will be clear that the judge is crooked. We'll see how it all pans out.

Another thing to watch for is the Infineon 'en banc' ruling. Most (over 90%) en banc rulings are denied UNLESS serious legal errors have been made. Infineon hasn't made any claims to that effect, so there's nothing to even suggest that en banc will even be granted. If En Banc is granted, then the entire reversal will be reviewed by the ENTIRE CAFC panel of 9 judges, which would take a few more months.

If en banc is NOT granted, then Infineon has a big decision to make. They can go back to the lower court against Rambus and go back to trial in virginia - however by doing so, the CAFC precedent stands, meaning Rambus can't be found guilty of Fraud, and their patents are deemed 100% valid...

OR they can settle. It's likely they would settle, since losing at this point would mean paying back royalties, PLUS legal fees covering the original trial (7.5 million), the CAFC proceedings (undisclosed) and the NEW trial, whatever fees they rack up.
 
How can you call them bastards? I think you're the bastard. Without Crucial i'm sure atleast 50% of the people on these boards would have had to go elsewhere with their memory. There aren't too many places you can find quality memory for crucial prices.
Bill

They're bastards because they're stealing someone elses property. They're also using their political influence in an attempt to kill off the most innovative memory technology company *ever*.

 
Originally posted by: Ice9
Originally posted by: MrFiTTy
Ice9, im curious, what do you do for a living?

Engineer for Salomon Smith Barney (Citigroup).

The reason i asked is because your attitude towards EVERY topic i have seen you post in has always been "Im right im right, no one else is."

How do you know everything you say is accurate?

Do you personally work for crucial or any of the companies you insult? oh no you dont?

So you cant be 100% sure of these things can you, or can you? Oh you think you can.

You have no right to insult crucial like that, they are a good company and make / if not made at least good RAM.

All companies come to an end or die out at some point.
This is why we have high quality products these days, because someone comes along with a more revolutionised updated idea and puts it into action.

Everything in life is done through trial and error, and learning from your mistakes. Crucial will not necessarily disappear because you say they will
rolleye.gif


 
Well I can't go against what you're saying because I am not folllowing much of everything, but it does seem like you know what you're talking about. People can say you don't but you seem to have the proof everytime someone asks a question. I am not against everyone else, nor am I with them. My own personal opinion (not knowing much about the companies and the SDRam v. Rambus race) is it seems like you've done your homework 🙂

Bill
 
Originally posted by: MrFiTTy
Originally posted by: Ice9
Originally posted by: MrFiTTy
Ice9, im curious, what do you do for a living?

Engineer for Salomon Smith Barney (Citigroup).

The reason i asked is because your attitude towards EVERY topic i have seen you post in has always been "Im right im right, no one else is."

How do you know everything you say is accurate?

Do you personally work for crucial or any of the companies you insult? oh no you dont?

So you cant be 100% sure of these things can you, or can you? Oh you think you can.

You have no right to insult crucial like that, they are a good company and make / if not made at least good RAM.

All companies come to an end or die out at some point.
This is why we have high quality products these days, because someone comes along with a more revolutionised updated idea and puts it into action.

Everything in life is done through trial and error, and learning from your mistakes. Crucial will not necessarily disappear because you say they will
rolleye.gif

Actually, hes quite a modest guy. He did admit he was wrong on several things in that other really big thread about RDRam vs DDR SDRam.
 
Hi everyone. 😉 Just stopped in after the thread exploded. Never thought it would do that, heh. I'm going to print it out to read on the bus. 😀

At any rate, something is going to turn around the industry. The question now, is it going to be with or against the will of the Dram companies? If they don't turn around their pricing structure they're all gonna go bankrupt and the DDR Prices will explode as the lone straggler who comes out of the price war imediatley tripples or quadruples RAM prices.
 
The reason i asked is because your attitude towards EVERY topic i have seen you post in has always been "Im right im right, no one else is."

How do you know everything you say is accurate?

Because I back them up with fact.

Do you personally work for crucial or any of the companies you insult? oh no you dont?

So you cant be 100% sure of these things can you, or can you? Oh you think you can.

You have no right to insult crucial like that, they are a good company and make / if not made at least good RAM.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary of what's been posted *publicly* by Micron, I would have to say that my guess is FAR more educated than yours... Unless of course you have evidence to back up YOUR claims.

Everything in life is done through trial and error, and learning from your mistakes. Crucial will not necessarily disappear because you say they will
rolleye.gif

Well, you have your predictions based on whatever the hell you're basing it on. I have my predictions based on documented fact. I will CONTINUE to base my opinions on fact.

Don't come to the table looking for an argument with people unless you're prepared to back up your claims. That's how I look at this kind of stuff. If i'm wrong, I'm wrong. But don't just say i'm wrong and expect me to concede. Prove it.

No offense, it's just that people get *RABID* when it comes to Rambus being right about ANYTHING. The fact that they're thriving in a market where the biggest dram makers are crumbling just burns people up, because people REALLY REALLY REALLY want to believe that Rambus is just a shady bunch of crooks.

When they find out otherwise, even when HARD EVIDENCE supports it and the LEGAL SYSTEM VINDICATES THEM, they think up other reasons for why they're STILL a shady bunch of crooks.
 
Think you got your finger stuck on the shift key a few too many times there 😉

1) Im not coming to any table for any argument.

2) My claims are based on "FACT"

Crucial do / did make VERY good RAM and have created themselves a good name, you want me to get evidence? I dont think I need to, and tbh, I shouldnt have to bother seeing as you know so much about them already 😉

3) Im going to bed now and cant be bothered to look at a computer screen for at least another 12 hours 🙂

Edit: 4) Where in my earlier post did you see me make any predictions? No where eh?
rolleye.gif


Goodnight.

Dan
 
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