And we take a step back - measles return

[DrPizza]

I'm not so sure.... There are two ex-coworkers who had similar issues with vaccines. They took their two year old boys to get vaccines who were perfectly normal, no issues with health or allergies. Two months after they vaccines, they started to have severe problems with digesting protein in their bodies and multiple other issues I can't recall.

Now, it could be pure coincidence but knowing two people, three kids seems rather odd to me. I hear similar stories all the time so there is a skeptic in me.

You know, I noticed something. In almost every car accident, the car was traveling on the road before the accident. I think roads cause accidents.

That's the type of analysis you just employed - correlation DOES NOT MEAN causation. Of course the two events are correlated. You know something that's also closely correlated with those two events? A particular age.

 

[Exterous]

I'm undecided about that, but there are perhaps good reasons to make them mandatory. A decision not to vaccinate your child affects more than just your child's health. It affects the health of others. And even if it did only affect your child's health, there's an argument that your child should be protected from your foolish decision. I'm a firm believer that people should be allowed to make foolish decisions, so long as they themselves are the only ones living with the consequences.

Unfortunately I think you would run into too many 'You can't tell me what to do with my child' arguments to gather the political willpower to make vaccines mandatory despite the well proven risks of not doing so. I don't think we'll see much of a change unless people have to see the ugly reality if/when some of these nasty diseases return

 

[PokerGuy]

You know, I noticed something. In almost every car accident, the car was traveling on the road before the accident. I think roads cause accidents.

That's the type of analysis you just employed - correlation DOES NOT MEAN causation. Of course the two events are correlated. You know something that's also closely correlated with those two events? A particular age.

So you're basically saying it's a coincidence. That's very possible, but it might also not be a coincidence. Just because on a large scale there aren't significant causation links established does NOT mean those causation links don't exist in individual cases.

Flying in a plane is on average very safe and the rewards outweigh the small risk, but that doesn't mean planes don't crash. There is a legitimate risk, and people should determine their tolerance for that risk for themselves.

 

[shortylickens]

Saw that the other day.

It would be amusing if innocent people werent suffering.

 

[PokerGuy]

Unfortunately I think you would run into too many 'You can't tell me what to do with my child' arguments to gather the political willpower

I agree with that argument. I personally have no problems with vaccines and will definitely vaccinate my children, it's not up to me or government to tell others what to do.

 

[Exterous]

Lets not pretend that there are no reasons to be concerned about vaccines. There are legitimate ones, but logic would dictate that on average the benefits far outweigh the risks. That's up to each person to decide though.

I'm all for vaccinations, but not for them to be mandated by government.

If these people are so concerned about their child having side effects* from a vaccine then I don't want to see them put their child in a car, have open flames or cooking appliances in the house, let their child near water or ride a bike as all of those activities are far more likely to injure a child than a vaccine. Hell, stairs are more likely to kill/injure your child than a vaccine. I hope they only have a 1 story house with no stairs if they are worried about a vaccine

*Other than the occasionally reported mild symptoms like redness and soreness

 

[Exterous]

I agree with that argument. I personally have no problems with vaccines and will definitely vaccinate my children, it's not up to me or government to tell others what to do.

That is a very flawed premise given that the government already tells everyone certain things they are legally required do, especially in regards to child care.

 

[Brainonska511]

While there might not be valid evidence of a link to autism, that doesn't mean that vaccines carry no risk. On average they are safe and effective, but there are going to be people that react severely to any medication, including vaccines. Lets not pretend that there are no reasons to be concerned about vaccines. There are legitimate ones, but logic would dictate that on average the benefits far outweigh the risks. That's up to each person to decide though.

I'm all for vaccinations, but not for them to be mandated by government.

Vaccines should be forced on people. No man is an island and vaccination protects those that cannot be vaccinated (too young, immune compromised, or too old where the vaccine efficacy is significantly reduced), protects those where the vaccine efficacy was lower (for whatever reason), and prevents people from cropping up to become disease incubators, which allows these diseases to spread to vulnerable populations.

 

[Brainonska511]

Flying in a plane is on average very safe and the rewards outweigh the small risk, but that doesn't mean planes don't crash. There is a legitimate risk, and people should determine their tolerance for that risk for themselves.

There is a risk, but you need to put everything in perspective. Many people are not good judges of risk. If someone was considering plane crashes in a decision to not fly from NY to FL and instead electing to drive, you would probably consider that individual as a bad judge of risk, as you are far more likely to be killed or injured driving compared with flying.

 

[K1052]

I'm all for vaccinations, but not for them to be mandated by government.

Given the susceptibility of the general public to terrible information like the Wakefield paper I don't really agree on matters of public health. That piece of shit killed people for financial gain and the damage is ongoing.

 

[Murloc]

yeah it's a problem here too, it goes along with the vegan/alternative medicine fads, according to which following X theory makes you resistant or stuff like that. Any vegan page on facebook is filled with theories that not eating meat means you don't get cancer or ALS and other crazy ideas like that.
The number of vaccinated children has lowered, 3-5% of the swiss population is against vaccinations according to a poll, and a similar number of children isn't vaccinated.
For measles it's worse because it's not perceived as being as dangerous so some people skip this one.

 

[Texashiker]

Vaccines should be forced on people.

If a woman has the right to control her body, shouldn't we all have the right to say what goes "in" our bodies?

 

[StrangerGuy]

How about if somebody gets the disease and any subsequent complications they didn't vaccinate for, they pay the full cost of treatments and is barred from using medical subsidy and insurance coverage? That should satisfy the "my body my choice" crowd.

"What? Unfair? Hey you chose to be stupid in the first place."

 

[Texashiker]

How about if somebody gets the disease and any subsequent complications they didn't vaccinate for, they pay the full cost of treatments and is barred from using medical subsidy and insurance coverage? That should satisfy the "my body my choice" crowd.

"What? Unfair? Hey you chose to be stupid in the first place."

How about a woman who has an abortion and has complications pay for the extra medical cost themselves, rather than using health insurance.

Unfair? Hey, the woman chose to be stupid and not use birth control in the first place.

~ EDIT ~

How about when a person commits a crime and is thrown in prison that persons family has to pay for their food, medical care, and other expenses. Why should the state have to pay for people breaking the law?

Unfair? Hey, the criminal chose to be stupid and break the law in the first place.

~ EDIT #2 ~

This is not TB, whooping cough, polio or small pox we are talking about.

 

[PokerGuy]

If these people are so concerned about their child having side effects* from a vaccine then I don't want to see them put their child in a car, have open flames or cooking appliances in the house, let their child near water or ride a bike as all of those activities are far more likely to injure a child than a vaccine. Hell, stairs are more likely to kill/injure your child than a vaccine. I hope they only have a 1 story house with no stairs if they are worried about a vaccine

*Other than the occasionally reported mild symptoms like redness and soreness

People are not robots, and they don't evaluate risks strictly based on some probability table in a database. They operate on perceived risk and perceived benefit. Your notion of what is acceptable risk and what is not should not be forced on someone else.

 

[nehalem256]

If a woman has the right to control her body, shouldn't we all have the right to say what goes "in" our bodies?

Haha. I think you got them there.

How come liberals throw a fit if a pregnant 15 year old girl cannot make whatever choice they want despite the obvious enormous practical costs of their decision to society, but then have no issue with forcing vaccines on people because of theoretical problem of them getting measles.

 

[nehalem256]

If these people are so concerned about their child having side effects* from a vaccine then I don't want to see them put their child in a car, have open flames or cooking appliances in the house, let their child near water or ride a bike as all of those activities are far more likely to injure a child than a vaccine. Hell, stairs are more likely to kill/injure your child than a vaccine. I hope they only have a 1 story house with no stairs if they are worried about a vaccine

*Other than the occasionally reported mild symptoms like redness and soreness

Don't forget single parenthood

Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological parents, according to a study of Missouri data published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.

Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.

Girls whose parents divorce face significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2290194&highlight=

Won't somebody think of the children?

 

[Mixolydian]

As much as it pains me to say it, I think a lot of these people are just going to have to learn the hard way. Unfortunate that young lives can/are/will be lost due to something thats so easily preventable.

 

[PokerGuy]

That is a very flawed premise given that the government already tells everyone certain things they are legally required do, especially in regards to child care.

So you think because they already do something it's OK to add more? Since people already rob houses it's OK for more robberies to occur? Talk about a flawed premise.....

I don't believe in government forcing people to do things to themselves or to their children unless it's absolutely critical. I view it much like freedom of speech -- the hurdle for government censoring speech should be very very high, and it should even higher for forcing people to ingest medicines in their body that carry risks.

 

[PokerGuy]

Vaccines should be forced on people.

Nice authoritarian streak you have there.

I disagree completely, I believe such quaint notions like "freedom" and "personal choice".

 

[Texashiker]

As much as it pains me to say it, I think a lot of these people are just going to have to learn the hard way. Unfortunate that young lives can/are/will be lost due to something thats so easily preventable.

The same thing can be said about:

Smoking and lung cancer.

Eating fatty processed foods and heart disease.

Drinking and driving.

Unprotected sex and HIV.

Sharing needles and HIV.

Sharing needles and Hep C.

Its sad when a drug addicted mother passes her HIV to her child. Maybe we should ban drugs along with forcing people to take vaccines.

 

[nehalem256]

Its sad when a drug addicted mother passes her HIV to her child. Maybe we should ban drugs along with forcing people to take vaccines.

Maybe we should ban drug addicts from having children? Or sterilization for those diagnosed with HIV?

Watch how fast liberals have a fit then.

 

[Texashiker]

Maybe we should ban drug addicts from having children? Or sterilization for those diagnosed with HIV?

Watch how fast liberals have a fit then.

Maybe we should bring back the eugenics program from the early 1900s?

California was a world leader in forced sterilization during the 1920s and 1930s. Hitler liked the California model so much he used it as a model for his own program.

 

[Brainonska511]

Nice authoritarian streak you have there.

I disagree completely, I believe such quaint notions like "freedom" and "personal choice".

I believe in freedom and personal choice as well, it's just that sometimes the needs of society trump the freedom of an individual, to put it frankly, be fucking stupid.

 

[fskimospy]

The same thing can be said about:

Smoking and lung cancer.

Eating fatty processed foods and heart disease.

Drinking and driving.

Unprotected sex and HIV.

Sharing needles and HIV.

Sharing needles and Hep C.

Its sad when a drug addicted mother passes her HIV to her child. Maybe we should ban drugs along with forcing people to take vaccines.

None of those examples are good. In the case of drinking and driving it's already a crime and every other one involves individuals choosing to partake in risky behavior.

The problem with not vaccinating people isn't just that you put yourself at risk, it is that you put others at risk who never asked for it. That is why vaccination should be mandatory.