And of course, no one can get shot without some mention of gun control...

[irishScott]

LOL, you are hilarious, you actually think there could be an organised attack that could enter a military base or get close to politicians before anyone knew about it? Have you taken a look at the surveillance that goes on today?

In reality, people aren't like you, they are used to their big screen TV's and their quiet evenings, they don't really know any military tactics and they don't care either, they are not part of your "out in the woods training for the future struggle" team, actually they, much like me and most military men think you are quite pathetic and paranoid little men with delusions of grandeur. You'd pretty much be on your own because no one would want to get involved.

You do realise that what you are proposing is domestic terrorism and there are laws against terrorism? You do realise that you little twats would be brought to court or killed before anything else would really happen?

You might think that your little handguns can compete with the biggest military force in the entire world, but if that is what you think you should propagate for shutting it down, if a bunch of wackos with handguns can defeat the USAF, it is of no use what so ever.




I AM in the military, i am a Captain in the SAS, the TFB, first in where no Americans dared go first in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and i can guarantee you that my team alone could take down most of those assembled without a single man down, we have, TWICE and those were not little fat men with plinkers, those were trained military men, of course, i'm not American so i wouldn't care all that much about it except for maybe having a tea party when all is said and done...

I have a feeling that Loehner was just like you, about to start a revolution, but you see, when insane people try to start revolutions they just fuck themselves right up the arse, they are nothing but criminals, common scum of the earth and the only thing they ever accomplish is to earn the hate of their fellow man.

I love it. When we're talking about something, he flashes his big bad military credentials and pretends we're talking about something else. Stay on topic Sheffield SAS Super Man.

If even 33% of the US population rose up the military and law enforcement would be overwhelmed. We're talking about doomsday collapse-of-Constitution circumstances here, not the current neonazi militia idiots in the woods.

And yes, any "revolution" on the part of the civilians nowadays would be domestic terrorism. The fact that its illegal would be irrelevant if the circumstances existed for it to happen en-masse. (yes it would take more than a handgun ban)

And having talked to some of my friends in the military about this very issue (for the hell of it), I'd have to say you're full of shit.

 

[irishScott]

TOm Delay on TODAY show 1/13, wishes everyone that came to his events were packing guns. He claims he'd feel safe.
Ok... someone pulls a gun, maybe drops a gun, and it goes off.
Then everyone, some 150+ guns, pulled and shooting. Just like your basic John Wayne movie, on a larger scale.
Pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow.
Are people totally insane or what?
People really want to have shootouts in the parking lots, the restaurants, Macy's, hospital waiting rooms, gas stations, churches, political gatherings, airports?
How many kids and adults would be hit in the gun fire?
Like a bar room brawl, except with guns flying off everywhere.
I can't believe people are really that insane. What drugs are these people taking?
What tv shows and movies do they get their fantasy from?

If there were guns at the Saturday shooting in AZ, how many more innocent would have died? A cop or security guard knows how to take one shot and hit their target.
Politicians should have security, always.
The general public would NEVER come close to knowing who to fire upon, and how many times. They would just unload, shooting frantically killing every child, man, woman and dog in sight. This is insane. And when your child is shot eighteen times at some mass shootout in the movie theater parking lot, or at Chuck E Cheese waiting for a pizza and tokens, you would have second thoughts about gun control.
Take it from cops, the police. They are ALWAYS for gun control and AGAINST wild west public shootouts. Why? Because UNLIKE the general deranged public, cops have too often seen these wild west shootouts up close. They know the reality difference between watching John Wayne, and some semi automatic NRA fantasy wet dream. And Cops know that this thinking that everyone should be packing a semi automatic, is total insanity. Trust the cops and their wisdom, most men can't even pee straight, let alone shoot straight. And your kid might be standing near by.

There was a CCW holder in the crowd IIRC. He couldn't get a clear shot due to said crowd, so he didn't take it. People are smarter than you think. Those that carry a weapon for the right reasons especially so. Carrying is a responsibility, and if you think those that recognize that are a minority you don't know many CCW holders.

Trust the cops and their wisdom? Lol. Where are these "wild west shootouts" you speak of? Even in states like Arizona where gun ownership and carry is unrestricted at the state level? They don't happen. Stop quoting the Brady line from the 90s.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Are people totally insane or what? What tv shows and movies do they get their fantasy from?

John Wayne movie... wild west public shootouts... seen these wild west shootouts up close... watching John Wayne...

Looks like you answered your own question.

 

[spidey07]

There was a CCW holder in the crowd IIRC. He couldn't get a clear shot due to said crowd, so he didn't take it. People are smarter than you think. Those that carry a weapon for the right reasons especially so. Carrying is a responsibility, and if you those that recognize that are a minority you don't know many CCW holders.

Trust the cops and their wisdom? Lol. Where are these "wild west shootouts" you speak of? Even in states like Arizona where gun ownership and carry is unrestricted at the state level? They don't happen. Stop quoting the Brady line from the 90s.

Not only that but cops LIKE an armed populace because of the crime reduction. He's got it backwards. I hear very few police who don't support armed citizens carrying. They're out there for sure, but overwhelming minority.

 

[Scotteq]

Not only that but cops LIKE an armed populace because of the crime reduction. He's got it backwards. I hear very few police who don't support armed citizens carrying. They're out there for sure, but overwhelming minority.

I would opine this sentiment among Police is regional: There are clearly supporters of private gun ownership among Officers in my area. But I'll tell you these guys are the minority.

 

[feralkid]

Not only that but cops LIKE an armed populace because of the crime reduction. He's got it backwards. I hear very few police who don't support armed citizens carrying. They're out there for sure, but overwhelming minority.

More talking out of your ass.

If you showed the least bit of interest in facts, not made-up boloney, you'd perhaps be taken seriously now and again.

 

[Modelworks]

One of the things that bothered me about the whole thing is the gun shop saying they had no choice but to sell to him because his check came back clean, even though they were nervous about selling to him. That is utter BS. The laws are clear about things like this. If someone tries to buy a gun you can refuse the sell for ANY REASON the seller wants as long as it isn't based on race. To say that someone could come into a gun shop , start talking to imaginary people or saying really weird things and you are still required to sell to him is BS. The law only says that you are not liable for selling to someone like that, not that you have to sell to them . They wanted the cash.

 

[irishScott]

I would opine this sentiment among Police is regional: There are clearly supporters of private gun ownership among Officers in my area. But I'll tell you these guys are the minority.

In many cases it's based on what makes their job easier. In major cities an unarmed populace means fewer guns on the street for the cops to worry about (in theory). In more rural areas an armed populace is a populace that can take care of itself to a point and saves the local sheriff some calls.

Personally I think major inner cities with gang violence is where the right to carry is needed most (the gangs are already carrying regardless, producing armed criminals and unarmed prey), but that's me.

 

[irishScott]

One of the things that bothered me about the whole thing is the gun shop saying they had no choice but to sell to him because his check came back clean, even though they were nervous about selling to him. That is utter BS. The laws are clear about things like this. If someone tries to buy a gun you can refuse the sell for ANY REASON the seller wants as long as it isn't based on race. To say that someone could come into a gun shop , start talking to imaginary people or saying really weird things and you are still required to sell to him is BS. The law only says that you are not liable for selling to someone like that, not that you have to sell to them . They wanted the cash.

Well neither of us were there. Having heard no first-hand accounts its kinda impossible to judge, he may have been acting relatively normal. But yeah if he was showing obvious signs of mental instability they should have showed him the door and reported it.

 

[Scotteq]

In many cases it's based on what makes their job easier. In major cities an unarmed populace means fewer guns on the street for the cops to worry about (in theory). In more rural areas an armed populace is a populace that can take care of itself to a point and saves the local sheriff some calls.

Personally I think major inner cities with gang violence is where the right to carry is needed most (the gangs are already carrying regardless, producing armed criminals and unarmed prey), but that's me.

/point made


I'm not arguing: Just providing some counterpoint to the assertion the majority of cops believe..."X"...

It varies, just opining that the law in this happy little armpit of the nation tend to be a rather humorless bunch. :\

 

[Darwin333]

TOm Delay on TODAY show 1/13, wishes everyone that came to his events were packing guns. He claims he'd feel safe.
Ok... someone pulls a gun, maybe drops a gun, and it goes off.
Then everyone, some 150+ guns, pulled and shooting. Just like your basic John Wayne movie, on a larger scale.
Pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow.
Are people totally insane or what?
People really want to have shootouts in the parking lots, the restaurants, Macy's, hospital waiting rooms, gas stations, churches, political gatherings, airports?
How many kids and adults would be hit in the gun fire?
Like a bar room brawl, except with guns flying off everywhere.
I can't believe people are really that insane. What drugs are these people taking?
What tv shows and movies do they get their fantasy from?

If there were guns at the Saturday shooting in AZ, how many more innocent would have died? A cop or security guard knows how to take one shot and hit their target.
Politicians should have security, always.
The general public would NEVER come close to knowing who to fire upon, and how many times. They would just unload, shooting frantically killing every child, man, woman and dog in sight. This is insane. And when your child is shot eighteen times at some mass shootout in the movie theater parking lot, or at Chuck E Cheese waiting for a pizza and tokens, you would have second thoughts about gun control.
Take it from cops, the police. They are ALWAYS for gun control and AGAINST wild west public shootouts. Why? Because UNLIKE the general deranged public, cops have too often seen these wild west shootouts up close. They know the reality difference between watching John Wayne, and some semi automatic NRA fantasy wet dream. And Cops know that this thinking that everyone should be packing a semi automatic, is total insanity. Trust the cops and their wisdom, most men can't even pee straight, let alone shoot straight. And your kid might be standing near by.

Isn't it weird that people with concealed weapons permits statistically NEVER EVER commit gun crimes and almost never commit any other crime?

Isn't it weird that you have a MUCH higher chance of being wrongfully shot by a police officer than a person with a concealed carry permit?

Isn't it weird that those wild west type shootouts have yet to materialize even though you and the rest of the anti-gun crowd have been using arguments like the above for probably a decade (or more)?

Don't let facts get in your way though.

 

[xj0hnx]

Isn't it weird that people with concealed weapons permits statistically NEVER EVER commit gun crimes and almost never commit any other crime?

Isn't it weird that you have a MUCH higher chance of being wrongfully shot by a police officer than a person with a concealed carry permit?

Isn't it weird that those wild west type shootouts have yet to materialize even though you and the rest of the anti-gun crowd have been using arguments like the above for probably a decade (or more)?

Don't let facts get in your way though.

What's funny is that there apparently was a CCW holder there, but he was back in the crowd, and by the time he had enough situational awareness about what was happening the shooter was subdued.

 

[Modelworks]

Well neither of us were there. Having heard no first-hand accounts its kinda impossible to judge, he may have been acting relatively normal. But yeah if he was showing obvious signs of mental instability they should have showed him the door and reported it.

It sounded like the shop owner blaming the government for not flagging him on the records check and acting like he was forced to sell to him no matter how the shop owner felt personally. I guess the guy didn't want to admit any guilt for the sale. I wonder if he did have second thoughts when he sold the gun if he is having a hard time dealing with it ?

 

[Modelworks]

In more rural areas an armed populace is a populace that can take care of itself to a point and saves the local sheriff some calls.

I think one of the big differences in rural areas is that a lot of the gun owners have had guns in the home almost forever. I can remember when I was 8 years old and my dad letting me hold his rifle telling me to never point a gun at someone you didn't intend to shoot, and basically instilling respect for the gun from a young age vs learning about it from tv shows and movies or friends. It is a different mindset between the two ways of learning about guns. For me it was always , a gun is a very serious thing, you don't play with it, point it at people, etc. For many other kids that grow up without that though it is a gun is cool, its fun to carry, nobody will mess with you, etc.


There is probably a gun in 1 out of 4 homes around here, many with multiple rifles and shotguns but the incidents of people being shot is rarely even 1 person a year, often going several years.

 

[Darwin333]

I think one of the big differences in rural areas is that a lot of the gun owners have had guns in the home almost forever. I can remember when I was 8 years old and my dad letting me hold his rifle telling me to never point a gun at someone you didn't intend to shoot, and basically instilling respect for the gun from a young age vs learning about it from tv shows and movies or friends. It is a different mindset between the two ways of learning about guns. For me it was always , a gun is a very serious thing, you don't play with it, point it at people, etc. For many other kids that grow up without that though it is a gun is cool, its fun to carry, nobody will mess with you, etc.


There is probably a gun in 1 out of 4 homes around here, many with multiple rifles and shotguns but the incidents of people being shot is rarely even 1 person a year, often going several years.

I got my first gun when I was 9. My Grandpa, who was a farmer in middleofnowheresville Missouri, gave me a .410 crack barrel for Christmas. By the time I was 10 he would let me take the 4 wheeler to one of the fields his cows would graze in with a few boxes of shells to shoot cans and bottles while he was bailing hay. I remember him coming to check on me one day and I missed the last can on the fence twice. He grabbed his twelve gauge and took it out faster than I could grab a shell out of the box and reload. Of course I was big and bad and knew everything so I said I would have hit it too if I was using a 12ga. So my Grandpa went and put the can back on the fence and handed me his 12ga. pump. After it knocked me on my ass he said "kicks like a mule when ya don't have it tight against that shoulder don't it son". He never had to tell me that again and my aim got much better after that "lesson".

Of course I also learned gun safety from him. A year or two earlier I was sitting at a table with him and 4 of his friends during hunting season. They had just came back to the farmhouse and one of the guys pulled out his new revolver to show it off. The revolver got handed around the table and the first thing every single person at the table did when recieving the gun was to open the chamber. I thought they were just looking at it and didn't realize they were checking to see if it was loaded, I guess I figured they knew he wouldn't pass around a loaded gun. Well, guess what I didn't do when it was my turn.... Grandpa very calmly said "boy, put that gun back on the table and stand up" and then in one swift motion he yanked his belt off and pelted me good (as in real friggen good, it hurt like hell to sit back down). To this day the very first thing I do when I pick up a firearm is to check the chamber. It doesn't matter if I just watched 10 people check it and I have already seen that it is unloaded, as soon as I touch it I check myself.

 

[Scotteq]

Isn't it weird that people with concealed weapons permits statistically NEVER EVER commit gun crimes and almost never commit any other crime?

Isn't it weird that you have a MUCH higher chance of being wrongfully shot by a police officer than a person with a concealed carry permit?

Isn't it weird that those wild west type shootouts have yet to materialize even though you and the rest of the anti-gun crowd have been using arguments like the above for probably a decade (or more)?

Don't let facts get in your way though.

What's funny is that there apparently was a CCW holder there, but he was back in the crowd, and by the time he had enough situational awareness about what was happening the shooter was subdued.

WHAT!?!?!?


You mean an Individual who had a Concealed Carry permit actually had the RESTRAINT and SELF CONTROL to keep his weapon holstered until he was sure, rather than whip his gun out and spray the crowd????



OH


MY


GAWD!!



Could that be evidence that a weapon holder excercised Good Judgment rather than risk adding a tragic mistake!?!??!


TELL ME IT ISN'T TRUE!!!

 

[Carmen813]

Why is a 30 round magazine even needed?

A: Because some people can't shoot for shit.

 

[irishScott]

I think one of the big differences in rural areas is that a lot of the gun owners have had guns in the home almost forever. I can remember when I was 8 years old and my dad letting me hold his rifle telling me to never point a gun at someone you didn't intend to shoot, and basically instilling respect for the gun from a young age vs learning about it from tv shows and movies or friends. It is a different mindset between the two ways of learning about guns. For me it was always , a gun is a very serious thing, you don't play with it, point it at people, etc. For many other kids that grow up without that though it is a gun is cool, its fun to carry, nobody will mess with you, etc.


There is probably a gun in 1 out of 4 homes around here, many with multiple rifles and shotguns but the incidents of people being shot is rarely even 1 person a year, often going several years.

I can attest to that. I grew up in a DC suburb with a gun-phobe for a dad and an apathetic mom. So there were no guns in the house. As a kid I basically had the attitude you mentioned, although I never handled a gun until 6th grade Boy Scout Camp (and that was just a bolt-action 22). Ironically though, it was when my dad showed me Saving Private Ryan (I was 13) that I gained a serious, if shocked, respect for guns. Around sophomore year in college I started pursuing them as a hobby, educated myself (watched a lot of nutnfancy and such) and have been shooting ever since. Application for a concealed carry permit is still in progress.

Thing is, I had an outside interest and independent attitude (I didn't like the idea of not being able to defend myself). People from my environment without that attitude (and who live safe enough lives to not need guns) just can't understand why I get excited about something that can kill. Hell my sister and I get into debates about it all the time. I was planning a solo backpacking trip and mentioned that I would like to bring a gun along, she gave me a look like I was sick. I explained I was going alone to a strange area and would need to be completely self-sufficient, I wasn't planning on using it and that it was just a precaution, no different from the PLB I was taking. She responded "yes it's different, it kills things." I said "No shit, and if I run into a rabid animal miles away from help or have to change tires in a shady area I'd like the option." I think she intellectually understood, but she still had this obvious revulsion.

So yeah, it's seems that when you live in a completely safe environment like a lot of my peer group most people just lose any notion of self-defense, thus anything that can hurt gains an evil connotation. I pitty a good chunk of my peer group. One guy I know sang a similar tune until he was robbed in his apartment at knife-point. Now he keeps a 1911 in the nightstand IIRC.

 

[Darwin333]

I can attest to that. I grew up in a DC suburb with a gun-phobe for a dad and an apathetic mom. So there were no guns in the house. As a kid I basically had the attitude you mentioned, although I never handled a gun until 6th grade Boy Scout Camp (and that was just a bolt-action 22). Ironically though, it was when my dad showed me Saving Private Ryan (I was 13) that I gained a serious, if shocked, respect for guns. Around sophomore year in college I started pursuing them as a hobby, educated myself (watched a lot of nutnfancy and such) and have been shooting ever since. Application for a concealed carry permit is still in progress.

Thing is, I had an outside interest and independent attitude (I didn't like the idea of not being able to defend myself). People from my environment without that attitude (and who live safe enough lives to not need guns) just can't understand why I get excited about something that can kill. Hell my sister and I get into debates about it all the time. I was planning a solo backpacking trip and mentioned that I would like to bring a gun along, she gave me a look like I was sick. I explained I was going alone to a strange area and would need to be completely self-sufficient, I wasn't planning on using it and that it was just a precaution, no different from the PLB I was taking. She responded "yes it's different, it kills things." I said "No shit, and if I run into a rabid animal miles away from help or have to change tires in a shady area I'd like the option." I think she intellectually understood, but she still had this obvious revulsion.

So yeah, it's seems that when you live in a completely safe environment like a lot of my peer group most people just lose any notion of self-defense, thus anything that can hurt gains an evil connotation. I pitty a good chunk of my peer group. One guy I know sang a similar tune until he was robbed in his apartment at knife-point. Now he keeps a 1911 in the nightstand IIRC.

Take them on vacation to New Orleans and have a cab driver drop you off in the 9th ward so that yall can take your own walking tour. After 10 minutes or so ask them about their view on guns again, bet you get a different answer.

 

[IEC]

That's really kind of a stupid comparison. Guns are designed to discharge bullets with the ultimate goal of killing and/or incapacitating people. You can't kill 30 people with a quad core processor. Ultimately, a gun's use is either for killing people or practicing to kill people.

I enjoy going to the shooting range but really I'm just practicing so that I am proficient with them. I hope to never have to use one to defend myself but ultimately killing or incapacitating people is the intended use of most firearms. Not so with any of the other things you mentioned.

Disagree, there's a whole series of target sports and even Olympic level competitions that have nothing to do with killing people or practicing killing people.

 

[Tom]

Isn't it weird that people with concealed weapons permits statistically NEVER EVER commit gun crimes and almost never commit any other crime?

Isn't it weird that you have a MUCH higher chance of being wrongfully shot by a police officer than a person with a concealed carry permit?

Isn't it weird that those wild west type shootouts have yet to materialize even though you and the rest of the anti-gun crowd have been using arguments like the above for probably a decade (or more)?

Don't let facts get in your way though.

What are the stats on people without guns commiting gun crimes ?

 

[IEC]

Take them on vacation to New Orleans and have a cab driver drop you off in the 9th ward so that yall can take your own walking tour. After 10 minutes or so ask them about their view on guns again, bet you get a different answer.

Having stayed in the 9th Ward for a week post-Katrina, I completely agree.

 

[irishScott]

What are the stats on people without guns commiting gun crimes ?

How about the Chinese knifeman who killed more people in one killing than the Arizona shooter? Despite have no "crazy 30 round mags", or any mags at all for that matter.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/china.school.attack/

 

[Darwin333]

What are the stats on people without guns commiting gun crimes ?

Statistically the same as those who legally carry concealed weapons.

 

[Darwin333]

How about the Chinese knifeman who killed more people in one killing than the Arizona shooter? Despite have no "crazy 30 round mags", or any mags at all for that matter.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/china.school.attack/

Its even better though, since people with a CCP statistically NEVER commit gun crimes, they are in the same category as those who have never even touched a gun statistically.

That means you are at least just as safe (from a gun crime standpoint) standing in an elevator next to a guy with a legally concealed .45 with 2 12 round mags as you are standing next to a person who has never even seen a gun.

Statistically the risk is the same.

Actually, I am pulling that out of my ass. I am making an assumption that a person that doesn't own a gun can not commit a gun crime and that really isn't true. A person does not have to own a gun to use one.