And of course, no one can get shot without some mention of gun control...

[Muse]

Except for that part where the populace raises in total revolution, crashes the world economy, destroys huge sections of the US, suffers 30+ million casualties, and plunges us into a century of open assassination and martial law. But other than that sure, it would be so much better.

What on earth are you talking about? Because we ban hand guns?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So say there is a civil war and one side invades. Take the French Maquis in WWII. They operated with considerable success despite the Germans employing some of the most brutal counter-tactics known. Obviously their plinkers were useless against the might of the German panz... oh wait they were smart enough to not directly take on tanks...

The point is if you think a heavily armed and determined population isn't at least a partial deterrent you're dreaming. British military arrogance I guess.

Or say aliens invade and take over the bodies of everyone in the south and they have mind bending powers...

What? It's just as believeable as your scenario...

A heavily armed and determined population? Armed with what? plinkers? yeah that would be a good start against tanks, airforce, artillery and missiles.. you'd aim for that jet with your glock and shoot it right down, right? You'd just jump out of the way from all of those artillery shells and avoid the missiles by shooting them down with your trusty old .30-06 high powered rifle... not to mention how you would turn the tanks into swiss cheese with your 12 gauge pistol grip black shotgun...

Son, in reality, you are either with the military or you are dead, no matter what side the military is on, that is the way it is.

This isn't a historical battle, it's not a fucking video game and no, you can't fight the USAF with handguns and expect to live, you just fucking can't.

 

[Muse]

At the cost of being able to defend myself or family effectively from an armed criminal. Obviously we should all be forced to go hand-to-hand with an assailant as opposed to shooting them. I'm glad you've never had the experience of having to or almost having to defend yourself in the moment. If and when you do I imagine you'll be one of the many converts who see the need for a gun after being caught helpless with no chance to even get to a phone.

I'm sorry you have to see the issue in this context. It's pretty typical of gun advocates. I've heard that most gun wounds in the home are due to people other than intruders getting shot.

Yes, to some extent initially, that will be the cost. However as I say in 50 years that criminal (if he even breaks in) won't have a gun. There won't be a lot of them around. Some things take time. Or you can do as Sheriff Dupnik suggests (faceciously) and just place Uzi's in every infant's crib.

 

[irishScott]

Or say aliens invade and take over the bodies of everyone in the south and they have mind bending powers...

What? It's just as believeable as your scenario...

A heavily armed and determined population? Armed with what? plinkers? yeah that would be a good start against tanks, airforce, artillery and missiles.. you'd aim for that jet with your glock and shoot it right down, right? You'd just jump out of the way from all of those artillery shells and avoid the missiles by shooting them down with your trusty old .30-06 high powered rifle... not to mention how you would turn the tanks into swiss cheese with your 12 gauge pistol grip black shotgun...

Son, in reality, you are either with the military or you are dead, no matter what side the military is on, that is the way it is.

This isn't a historical battle, it's not a fucking video game and no, you can't fight the USAF with handguns and expect to live, you just fucking can't.

Did I ever say one could? Nope. I actually made the point (if my comment was too subtle for you) that any resistance would be smart enough to not try and do it. But such a resistance could raid. Blow stuff up. Disrupt any number of things and otherwise cause trouble at the very least.

And no it isn't a historical battle or video game. I guess we're in your fantasy where the military is God and ground troops are invincible to bullets. Keep in mind we're talking ARs, AKs, and full-size full-caliber handguns, not airsoft.

Yes the military would be the deciding factor. Just saying an armed civilian population would be a considerable factor as well.

 

[xj0hnx]

I'm sorry you have to see the issue in this context. It's pretty typical of gun advocates.

It's also pretty typical of people that live in reality, go figure.

I've heard that most gun wounds in the home are due to people other than intruders getting shot.

Got statistics?

Yes, to some extent initially, that will be the cost. However as I say in 50 years that criminal (if he even breaks in) won't have a gun. There won't be a lot of them around.

You live in a dream world. Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws, and sentencing for violators around, and has for close to a century, and look at the mess in that country. Is the magic anti-gun fairy going to wave her wand and magically make the criminals start turning in their guns? We all know criminals wouldn't want to break the law now don't we?

 

[irishScott]

I'm sorry you have to see the issue in this context. It's pretty typical of gun advocates. I've heard that most gun wounds in the home are due to people other than intruders getting shot.

Yes, to some extent initially, that will be the cost. However as I say in 50 years that criminal (if he even breaks in) won't have a gun. There won't be a lot of them around. Some things take time. Or you can do as Sheriff Dupnik suggests (faceciously) and just place Uzi's in every infant's crib.

So what if he doesn't have a gun when he breaks in? Which is safer? Shooting a criminal armed with a crowbar/knife, or engaging him in h2h? You want to have some fun? I'll grab a sharpie, we can meet somewhere, and you try to stop me bare handed before I can mark something vital.

And If you think a gun ban will do anything other than make the black market explode you're dreaming. Hell despite the near century long ban on civilian fully automatic weapons (aside from class III FFLs), I know people, non class III holders, who could very illegally and very easily get me an automatic weapon if I asked and had the right money. All your ban would do is put guns in the hands of criminals only.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Did I ever say one could? Nope. I actually made the point (if my comment was too subtle for you) that any resistance would be smart enough to not try and do it. But such a resistance could raid. Blow stuff up. Disrupt any number of things and otherwise cause trouble at the very least.

And no it isn't a historical battle or video game. I guess we're in your fantasy where the military is God and ground troops are invincible to bullets. Keep in mind we're talking ARs, AKs, and full-size full-caliber handguns, not airsoft.

Yes the military would be the deciding factor. Just saying an armed civilian population would be a considerable factor as well.

It really couldn't, if you think it could you don't know SHIT about the USAF of today.

An armed civilian population would be no factor what so ever, no arms or arms wouldn't matter even a little bit, not even a small bit, i'd suggest you get to the nearest safe room and stay there until it's over, it's pretty much the only way you'll ever survive.

You don't send ground troops to fight ground troops with handguns, you send artillery and tanks along with special teams to track down groups and target them for the airforce, it's a matter of a day or two before you'd surrender and a matter of a week before everyone who doesn't is dead. This is homeland, you don't need to transport anything, this isn't like Afghanistan or Iraq, this is the full strenght of all of the USAF against a group of revolutionaries...

 

[PrinceofWands]

What on earth are you talking about? Because we ban hand guns?

Correct. Any total ban of weapons like that would cause immediate revolution. All politicians who supported it would be assassinated, the police or military who tried to confiscate the weapons would be executed as they came for the weapons, total and utter anarchy. Not all gun owners of course, but more than enough to cause the total collapse of society. As the government increased its authority to attempt to implement the ban more and more people would turn against them. Those unwilling to fight, but still opposed to the action, would undertake economic sanctions (such as refusing to pay taxes). Jails would swell beyond capacity, commerce would crumble, etc.

In short, any attempt to ban firearms in America would be the absolute end of America. That's why it would never happen.

 

[Zorkorist]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It doesn't get much more simple than that.

-John

 

[PrinceofWands]

Or say aliens invade and take over the bodies of everyone in the south and they have mind bending powers...

What? It's just as believeable as your scenario...

A heavily armed and determined population? Armed with what? plinkers? yeah that would be a good start against tanks, airforce, artillery and missiles.. you'd aim for that jet with your glock and shoot it right down, right? You'd just jump out of the way from all of those artillery shells and avoid the missiles by shooting them down with your trusty old .30-06 high powered rifle... not to mention how you would turn the tanks into swiss cheese with your 12 gauge pistol grip black shotgun...

Son, in reality, you are either with the military or you are dead, no matter what side the military is on, that is the way it is.

This isn't a historical battle, it's not a fucking video game and no, you can't fight the USAF with handguns and expect to live, you just fucking can't.

Bullshit to the nth degree. A pilot has no missiles or armor when he's walking to and from the plane or his barracks. Politicians aren't ever in tanks, and without them the whole thing crumbles to anarchy. A little chlorine gas will make short work of a unit unprepared for chemical warfare. Any deployment of heavy munitions against the populace will solidify the populace against the government 80:20 or better, rendering the entire nation destroyed in a few short weeks as total economic and infrastructure collapse occurs. Remember also that since revolutionaries don't wear uniforms the government doesn't know who they are, so it doesn't know who to target with your artillery and air force. Their only options are bomb civilians on a grand scale, or wait for the inevitable. If they do the first they lose. If they do the second they lose.

You don't stand up and fight, you execute one soldier a day per county, from 500 yards, or with an ied. You kill them when they come to do a search for weapons, or you snipe one on the freeway in transit, or you send an ied into a national guard barracks or recruiting station window. Within a year the armed forces are reduced to next to nothing, especially when 30% left the first day refusing to deploy against their brothers and friends in violation of the oath they swore. That doesn't even begin to get into the economic drain, which rendered the government insolvent three months into the whole affair, as nation after nation cuts off ties rather than becoming involved in an internal matter.

I've been in the military, and I guarantee you it wouldn't stand a chance against just 1% of the American population pissed to the point of revolution. Not unless they were willing to completely eradicate the entirety of the population and absolutely the entire infrastructure as well...something our military has never even come close to, even on other people's soil.

 

[BoberFett]

A heavily armed and determined population? Armed with what? plinkers? yeah that would be a good start against tanks, airforce, artillery and missiles.. you'd aim for that jet with your glock and shoot it right down, right? You'd just jump out of the way from all of those artillery shells and avoid the missiles by shooting them down with your trusty old .30-06 high powered rifle... not to mention how you would turn the tanks into swiss cheese with your 12 gauge pistol grip black shotgun...

Oh good, the fake soldier is back for more.

 

[bfdd]

It really couldn't, if you think it could you don't know SHIT about the USAF of today.

An armed civilian population would be no factor what so ever, no arms or arms wouldn't matter even a little bit, not even a small bit, i'd suggest you get to the nearest safe room and stay there until it's over, it's pretty much the only way you'll ever survive.

You don't send ground troops to fight ground troops with handguns, you send artillery and tanks along with special teams to track down groups and target them for the airforce, it's a matter of a day or two before you'd surrender and a matter of a week before everyone who doesn't is dead. This is homeland, you don't need to transport anything, this isn't like Afghanistan or Iraq, this is the full strenght of all of the USAF against a group of revolutionaries...

This is assuming the entire government has turned against the population right? Like the military is completely siding with them? There's no political splits? Because if there was/is to be a revolution, that shit is going to be split and I doubt very much that most of our military would stay behind to kill off the people they enlisted to protect.

 

[silverpig]

It doesn't get much more simple than that.

-John

Actually it could. Define "well regulated militia", "Arms", and "shall not be infringed." No matter which way you cut it, you're operating in grey territory.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Oh good, the fake soldier is back for more.

And the retarded wise and beautiful woman who runs around screaming wildly at democrats and republicans while flailing his arms in pride of belonging to the SPECIAL childrens group of whacked out tea party nutjobs.

Congrats, you are worse than the rest combined.

I am as fake as you want to believe i am, mostly because you actually believe that your fantasy world is true.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Bullshit to the nth degree. A pilot has no missiles or armor when he's walking to and from the plane or his barracks. Politicians aren't ever in tanks, and without them the whole thing crumbles to anarchy. A little chlorine gas will make short work of a unit unprepared for chemical warfare. Any deployment of heavy munitions against the populace will solidify the populace against the government 80:20 or better, rendering the entire nation destroyed in a few short weeks as total economic and infrastructure collapse occurs. Remember also that since revolutionaries don't wear uniforms the government doesn't know who they are, so it doesn't know who to target with your artillery and air force. Their only options are bomb civilians on a grand scale, or wait for the inevitable. If they do the first they lose. If they do the second they lose.

LOL, you are hilarious, you actually think there could be an organised attack that could enter a military base or get close to politicians before anyone knew about it? Have you taken a look at the surveillance that goes on today?

In reality, people aren't like you, they are used to their big screen TV's and their quiet evenings, they don't really know any military tactics and they don't care either, they are not part of your "out in the woods training for the future struggle" team, actually they, much like me and most military men think you are quite pathetic and paranoid little men with delusions of grandeur. You'd pretty much be on your own because no one would want to get involved.

You do realise that what you are proposing is domestic terrorism and there are laws against terrorism? You do realise that you little twats would be brought to court or killed before anything else would really happen?

You might think that your little handguns can compete with the biggest military force in the entire world, but if that is what you think you should propagate for shutting it down, if a bunch of wackos with handguns can defeat the USAF, it is of no use what so ever.

You don't stand up and fight, you execute one soldier a day per county, from 500 yards, or with an ied. You kill them when they come to do a search for weapons, or you snipe one on the freeway in transit, or you send an ied into a national guard barracks or recruiting station window. Within a year the armed forces are reduced to next to nothing, especially when 30% left the first day refusing to deploy against their brothers and friends in violation of the oath they swore. That doesn't even begin to get into the economic drain, which rendered the government insolvent three months into the whole affair, as nation after nation cuts off ties rather than becoming involved in an internal matter.

I've been in the military, and I guarantee you it wouldn't stand a chance against just 1% of the American population pissed to the point of revolution. Not unless they were willing to completely eradicate the entirety of the population and absolutely the entire infrastructure as well...something our military has never even come close to, even on other people's soil.

I AM in the military, i am a Captain in the SAS, the TFB, first in where no Americans dared go first in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and i can guarantee you that my team alone could take down most of those assembled without a single man down, we have, TWICE and those were not little fat men with plinkers, those were trained military men, of course, i'm not American so i wouldn't care all that much about it except for maybe having a tea party when all is said and done...

I have a feeling that Loehner was just like you, about to start a revolution, but you see, when insane people try to start revolutions they just fuck themselves right up the arse, they are nothing but criminals, common scum of the earth and the only thing they ever accomplish is to earn the hate of their fellow man.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It doesn't get much more simple than that.

-John

That is the most perfect description of the National Guard i have ever read.

Too bad they are treated as a part of general military now, they really shouldn't be.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Correct. Any total ban of weapons like that would cause immediate revolution.

LOL, you and your forrest warriors would take down the man, right?

I'm sorry but i find the entire idea hilarious, you and your friends running around playing warfare, i see it as the kids who play D&D...

Tell me, do you say "pew pew" or "bang" when you pretend to shoot each other?

 

[Pr0d1gy]

LOL, you are hilarious, you actually think there could be an organised attack that could enter a military base or get close to politicians before anyone knew about it? Have you taken a look at the surveillance that goes on today?

In reality, people aren't like you, they are used to their big screen TV's and their quiet evenings, they don't really know any military tactics and they don't care either, they are not part of your "out in the woods training for the future struggle" team, actually they, much like me and most military men think you are quite pathetic and paranoid little men with delusions of grandeur. You'd pretty much be on your own because no one would want to get involved.

You do realise that what you are proposing is domestic terrorism and there are laws against terrorism? You do realise that you little twats would be brought to court or killed before anything else would really happen?

You might think that your little handguns can compete with the biggest military force in the entire world, but if that is what you think you should propagate for shutting it down, if a bunch of wackos with handguns can defeat the USAF, it is of no use what so ever.




I AM in the military, i am a Captain in the SAS, the TFB, first in where no Americans dared go first in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and i can guarantee you that my team alone could take down most of those assembled without a single man down, we have, TWICE and those were not little fat men with plinkers, those were trained military men, of course, i'm not American so i wouldn't care all that much about it except for maybe having a tea party when all is said and done...

I have a feeling that Loehner was just like you, about to start a revolution, but you see, when insane people try to start revolutions they just fuck themselves right up the arse, they are nothing but criminals, common scum of the earth and the only thing they ever accomplish is to earn the hate of their fellow man.

Nothing against you, or military in general, but it's kind of sad to read that comment and then realize an RC plane could destroy your whole squad in half a second. War has been rendered obsolete by technological advancement.

 

[PrinceofWands]

LOL, you are hilarious, you actually think there could be an organised attack that could enter a military base or get close to politicians before anyone knew about it? Have you taken a look at the surveillance that goes on today?

In reality, people aren't like you, they are used to their big screen TV's and their quiet evenings, they don't really know any military tactics and they don't care either, they are not part of your "out in the woods training for the future struggle" team, actually they, much like me and most military men think you are quite pathetic and paranoid little men with delusions of grandeur. You'd pretty much be on your own because no one would want to get involved.

You do realise that what you are proposing is domestic terrorism and there are laws against terrorism? You do realise that you little twats would be brought to court or killed before anything else would really happen?

You might think that your little handguns can compete with the biggest military force in the entire world, but if that is what you think you should propagate for shutting it down, if a bunch of wackos with handguns can defeat the USAF, it is of no use what so ever.




I AM in the military, i am a Captain in the SAS, the TFB, first in where no Americans dared go first in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and i can guarantee you that my team alone could take down most of those assembled without a single man down, we have, TWICE and those were not little fat men with plinkers, those were trained military men, of course, i'm not American so i wouldn't care all that much about it except for maybe having a tea party when all is said and done...

I have a feeling that Loehner was just like you, about to start a revolution, but you see, when insane people try to start revolutions they just fuck themselves right up the arse, they are nothing but criminals, common scum of the earth and the only thing they ever accomplish is to earn the hate of their fellow man.

A little American Revolution angst there?

The bolded is the only thing you say with merit. Fortunately it doesn't take many to stage a successful revolution. Less than 10% historically, and even less now that the populations being dealt with are so much greater, and we have so much greater access to resources than previously or in other nations.

We've gone round and round on this at least once before, probably more. Bottom line, you're too ignorant and arrogant to accept reality and I'm too well versed in the subject matter to really care what your opinion is. Fortunately you can sit over there on your island, isolated from us, and we can sit over here, toasting to our separation. In the end it's history that will call the outcome, not either of us.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Count me among those who think you should not be able to buy a gun legally. It would take decades, but in 50 years the incidence of gun violence in the USA would be a fraction of what it's been in the last 50 years.

LOL, maybe if you carpet nuke Mexico and every Latin American country below it.

 

[Triumph]

JoS absolutely loves coming into every thread concerning guns and making sure that everyone knows he is some tough guy in the SAS who has seen more of warfare than you ever will son, and you better recognize that because otherwise he's going to tell us all again and again in another thread about how awesome he is. You're a hardass John, we all get it.

 

[Darwin333]

And of course, no one can get shot without some mention of gun control...

And why not? If people didn't have these guns these people wouldn't be getting shot. Yeah, I know, it all depends on your paradigm. There's no arguing with a sick mind. Jared Loughner asked Gabrielle Giffords at a public event "what's the meaning of political discourse when politician's words have no meaning?" That's not an exact quote (well, maybe it is, it's from memory), but it's essentially what he said. Giffords was literally speechless. Like I said, there's no arguing with a sick mind. However if she'd said something, anything, maybe he wouldn't have stewed in his mind and shot her and the others. Count me among those who think you should not be able to buy a gun legally. It would take decades, but in 50 years the incidence of gun violence in the USA would be a fraction of what it's been in the last 50 years.

Because we have had such great success with the war on drugs. Drug use is a fraction of what it was when we started the "war".

 

[Darwin333]

LOL, what would you do, shoot your little plinkers at the tanks, take out choppers with your glock?

The US would either have the military on the side of the revolutionaries (very unlikely, the military leaders always see a chance to take over and enrich themselves when something like that happens) and your little plinkers wouldn't matter OR they would be on the side of the government and your little plinkers would go plink, plink, plink until you were out of bullets or shot dead.

Don't think for a second that Afghanistan or Iraq is an example of what the US military could do if it was the actual leaders of the US in jeopardy.

At the end of the day, you can have your dreams of world domination with your plinkers, it's just a dream of a madman.

I somehow doubt they would burn and pillage their own country when we wouldn't do it to a country that most people in the States can't even find on a map. Even if the leaders were threatened, they wouldn't want to rule over the rubble that was left anyway.

I will concede that we probably wouldn't like the political results of a "revolution".

 

[Darwin333]

I'm sorry you have to see the issue in this context. It's pretty typical of gun advocates. I've heard that most gun wounds in the home are due to people other than intruders getting shot.

Yes, to some extent initially, that will be the cost. However as I say in 50 years that criminal (if he even breaks in) won't have a gun. There won't be a lot of them around. Some things take time. Or you can do as Sheriff Dupnik suggests (faceciously) and just place Uzi's in every infant's crib.

You have a much higher chance of accidentally (or wrongfully) being shot by a police officer.

 

[sportage]

TOm Delay on TODAY show 1/13, wishes everyone that came to his events were packing guns. He claims he'd feel safe.
Ok... someone pulls a gun, maybe drops a gun, and it goes off.
Then everyone, some 150+ guns, pulled and shooting. Just like your basic John Wayne movie, on a larger scale.
Pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow, pow, boom, pow.
Are people totally insane or what?
People really want to have shootouts in the parking lots, the restaurants, Macy's, hospital waiting rooms, gas stations, churches, political gatherings, airports?
How many kids and adults would be hit in the gun fire?
Like a bar room brawl, except with guns flying off everywhere.
I can't believe people are really that insane. What drugs are these people taking?
What tv shows and movies do they get their fantasy from?

If there were guns at the Saturday shooting in AZ, how many more innocent would have died? A cop or security guard knows how to take one shot and hit their target.
Politicians should have security, always.
The general public would NEVER come close to knowing who to fire upon, and how many times. They would just unload, shooting frantically killing every child, man, woman and dog in sight. This is insane. And when your child is shot eighteen times at some mass shootout in the movie theater parking lot, or at Chuck E Cheese waiting for a pizza and tokens, you would have second thoughts about gun control.
Take it from cops, the police. They are ALWAYS for gun control and AGAINST wild west public shootouts. Why? Because UNLIKE the general deranged public, cops have too often seen these wild west shootouts up close. They know the reality difference between watching John Wayne, and some semi automatic NRA fantasy wet dream. And Cops know that this thinking that everyone should be packing a semi automatic, is total insanity. Trust the cops and their wisdom, most men can't even pee straight, let alone shoot straight. And your kid might be standing near by.