Nope. BLM riots are stupid people doing stupid things. Trump riots are speculation based on nothing. Should they happen, those will be stupid people as well.
woolfe9998
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2013
- 16,188
- 14,094
- 136
I think you are under-estimating Trump's ability to pose legal challenges and demand recounts, delaying things enough to overshoot 1/20 and cause a serious Constitutional crisis.
His own party will come down hard against him. He wont be able to steal the election, but he can make a lot of noise and rally the retarded violent segment of his base who can cause trouble.
dank69
Lifer
- Oct 6, 2009
- 35,348
- 28,631
- 136
Actually, everyone talks about that part of the argument, you just don't listen. Yes taxes go up, but individuals and employers no longer have to pay premiums, and that's the part you neglect for whatever reason.
It's actually more than that. You show up in an emergency room, you get treated. The hospital doesn't eat that expense, it's added into their price structure. The reality is we already pay for UHC, it's just that some folks get crappier service than others.
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 69,060
- 26,949
- 136
Trump riots have been going on for weeks across America so try to pay attention. The Trump rioters are paid with your tax dollars and the rioters wear badges (okay, sometimes they just wear their taxpayer furnished body armor and hide their badges).
Fenixgoon
Lifer
- Jun 30, 2003
- 31,595
- 9,995
- 136
And if we did preventive instead of emergency care, because now everyone has access to health-care, all of the sudden the overall cost drops dramatically...
I don't think it will be close enough for any of that to matter, not on the current trajectory. States run their own elections & have their own recount rules & so forth. The loser has no recourse if the spread is wide enough. It's a whole lot easier for Trump to talk shit on TV than it is to make any headway against any state election board in a court of law.
This crisis will only deepen as we head into the election. It's simply too late to avoid an enormous amount of disease, death & economic suffering. It didn't have to be this way. Trump & his GOP sycophants made it this way.
I think you are expressing the applicable logic and @woolfe9998 his fears, not that all of us liberals don't have them. I would simply add that there is too much power and money at risk without status quo normal presidential succession and even plain old patriotism to allow the country to degenerate into the violence of civil war.
"Narcissism is all well and good for conservative government so long as it doesn't cost me personally"
The golden goose is power and money within the American economy, not Donald Trump.
He's not the only psychopath out there interested only in him or her self.
"We insist you never fuck with the apple cart." Ask Sanders.
nickqt
Diamond Member
- Jan 15, 2015
- 7,545
- 7,691
- 136
Yes, but people who make lots of profits off the inefficiencies in the US healthcare system would lose money, and they currently have money and give it to politicians to maintain the status quo.
woolfe9998
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2013
- 16,188
- 14,094
- 136
I also think he’s wrong that Trump will care about winning in the courts. Yes, he will sue, but not because he expects to win on the merits. The point will be to delegitimize the election, something he will 100% try to do.
So what? If Trump can't win 270 votes in the EC, he's out, simply because he doesn't have the power or the loyalty of the people who could make it different.
I think you underestimate the amount of damage and chaos he can cause, even if he eventually has to leave office.
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
- 46,076
- 33,144
- 136
I'm becoming somewhat less concerned this is going to be a big problem. He will absolutely make a lot of noise in a loss but so much of the county is tuning him out now because he's been screaming for four years that it may be less consequential than it was previously. His "delay the election" suggestion went over like a lead balloon even in Republican controlled states and everybody quickly moved on. The assumption that there can be no life after Trump is not shared by many of the people even inside the Republican Party. There is a next generation of ambitious people looking at 2024 and beyond who will happily consume his political corpse once he's fallen to carve out their own path.
jameny5
Senior member
- Aug 7, 2018
- 300
- 77
- 101
I didn't read this post all the way through because it is very lenghthy. You have to understand that after Trump is long gone this country will try to elect someone close to Trump or worse than him. Democracy will be lost and a little bit taken away from power hungry White men but for the most part our democracy will be intact. Trump's buffoonery will be everlasting and and good material to use for many years to come. The world will see how the US allowed a crook, a racist and corrupt man to be President. And how White America and a few others in this racist and hateful country ate all up!Not long ago, I would have written this off as hysteria.
Not anymore. Not at all. I sense it coming and if we don't do something, this will be it for the United States we knew.
American Democracy Will Die in 100 Days
…Unless Americans Start Understanding How to Fight Nazism — Noweand.co
American Democracy Will Die in 100 Days
…Unless Americans Start Understanding How to Fight Nazism — Now
Americans being abducted off the streets. A mayor being attacked with chemical agents. Secret Police, otherwise known as “Homeland Security,” occupying cities. And an aspiring dictator behind it all. Here’s a bitter truth, made of five smaller ones. America now has 100 days to save its democracy.
Even if, at this late juncture, Americans begin to fight for their democracy, there’s no guarantee of success. Nonetheless. This upcoming election is America’s last chance.
To those of us who lived through authoritarian collapses — and survived them — what’s going to happen in America over the next six months is as simple as it is predictable. That’s not to be a know-it-all blowhard. It’s to warn you.
Fact one. Trump is going to try to steal the election. If this were any other President, I myself would dismiss such an idea as crackpot conspiratorialism. But Trumps not any other President. He’s a man who’s checked every item off the list of Nazi politics, from camps to bans to raids to purges. He’s announced proudly that he doesn’t believe in democracy, or the Constitution, and wants to keep power for as long as he can.
When authoritarians tell you what they are going to do, believe them. They’re like mafiosi: they have to follow through on their threats or they lose all credibility. So when Trump says he’s not going to accede to a peaceful transfer of power, believe him. Americans have spent too long playing dumb, not believing Trump at any stage of collapse so far, from camps to bans to purges — and now it’s almost too late.
Fact two. Trump is still within striking distance of being able to steal the election. Don’t count him out yet, just because he’s sunk a little in the polls. He’s still got an Army of American Idiots behind him — about 40% or so of Americans. That number, it seems, is a hard floor — it doesn’t budge, no matter what. The whys and wherefores — these are mentally broken people regressed to infantile psychologies, who regard Trump as an unconscious omnipotent father figure — are now irrelevant. What is relevant is that thanks to the vagaries of America’s electoral college, Trump can still squeeze out a narrow victory, especially with a little help from Zuck and the Kremlin. Or a narrow enough loss that it can be contested to high heaven — and then turned into a victory thanks to a stacked Supreme Court and a supine Senate.
Don’t count Trump out.
Fact three. This is how authoritarians steal elections: with creeping martial law. Those storm troopers on Portland’s streets, abducting people, beating moms, gassing the mayor? That’s exactly — exactly — how authoritarians institute martial law. Not like in the movies — suddenly. But slowly, one step at a time. One city, town, set of shock troops at a time. Their power are expanded. Your rights are eroded. And before anyone knows it — you’re living in a police state, a place where people feel afraid to express themselves, organize, protest, dissent, vote.
Trump is instituting martial law right before a crucial election that will decide the fate of democracy in America for at least a generation. Probably longer. That’s not a coincidence. It’s a culmination. Of what? Of Trump’s Nazi politics. Camps, bans, raids, purges, institutionalized hate, paramilitaries and secret police — all that’s a pattern. What does it culminate in? The next step of the sequence of implosion. The final seizure of power.
That is what this pattern has been leading up to for four solid years now. It’s what those of us who’ve lived through authoritarian collapses have been trying to warn you of — and failing, because we’ve been dismissed as “alarmists” by mainstream pundits. But by now, I’d bet, you’re pretty goddamned alarmed. You should be, because this is all very real. Those of us who know know because we’ve lived it, and what we know is that collapse proceeds according to a predictable and time-honored pattern. In America, it couldn’t have been any clearer, which is why us survivors of authoritarianism have been trying to warn you as loudly as we can — even if it cost us personally.
That brings me to fact four.
Fact four. Americans have been in denial about what Trumpism really is. What kind of people build…actual concentration camps? Put kids in them? Rip them from their mothers? Set up Gestapos to hunt them in the streets?
There’s only one word for such people. Nazis. That’s one of history’s great lessons — and Americans are the world’s laughingstocks at this point because they’re the only people left in the world who don’t get that this is Nazism reborn. The only people. Like I say, every single person I know asks me why Americans don’t get it every single day now. I’m not exaggerating when I say that. What the? By now, you can see openly and in shocking, weird, and frightening ways that Trumpists really are Nazis. For example, they call slavery a “necessary evil.” For example, they wear swastika masks to Walmart. For example, their Gestapo destroys medical supplies during a pandemic — which is a literal war crime.
Trumpism is American Nazism. Maybe not all Trumpists think of themselves that way — but so what? If you’re happy with Gestapos beating moms and gassing mayors, and kids in concentration camps, guess what…you’re a Nazi. The good American — the non-Trumpist, the one who still believes in democracy and freedom — now has just 100 days to emerge from their foxholes of denial, and begin acting like they finally get that this is America’s final showdown with American Nazism.
If Americans really understood that — and they don’t — what would they do?
That brings me to my fifth fact. Americans aren’t fighting authoritarianism yet — not the way it needs to be fought. And that is a consequence of four long, terrible, painful years of denial.
Look, in any sane nation, Trump would not be the head of state anymore. If Justin Trudeau had gassed mayors…he’d have had to resign tomorrow. If Emanuel Macron had let 150,000 people die of Covid — he’d have been thrown out of office swiftly. If Angela Merkel had ripped kids from their parents and put them in concentration camps, she’d have been tried in German courts for fascism.
People would have lined the streets of Paris, Berlin, and Toronto, day after day — until these leaders resigned.
If Americans really understood that this was their final showdown with Nazism — they’d demand scalps. That Trump resign. That all his white supremacist advisors be thrown out of office — and never find work or friends in society again. They’d line the streets of every major American city. There would be a mass movement calling for the end of American Nazism — politically, culturally, and socially. Millions would park themselves in front of the White House, and not leave until the job was done.
There are stirrings of that, in protest growing across the nation. But so far, they aren’t calling for Trump to resign. What the? Why not? But that’s the point.
The best way to defeat Trump in the upcoming election is to checkmate him — not to have him in one.
That’s how you play this game — because it’s the precise opposite of what he wants, after all. What does he really want? Not to have an election at all, or to postpone it. Maybe Covid will be the pretext. Or maybe it’s the way he’s amping up tensions with China. Maybe it will just be “law and order.” Would you be surprised if Trump tried to cancel the election? Of course not. Nobody sane would be. He’s said he doesn’t want one, more or less, over and over again. That’s how authoritarians usually make their final seizure of power — they don’t win elections, they steal them, thwart them, or destroy them.
Trump is trying to checkmate American democracy. Why else is he sending storm troopers nationwide just before a crucial election? So that — if he can get away with it — there isn’t one, and if he can’t get away with that, so he can terrorize people into not voting.
What’s the best way to deal with that? One way is to encourage people to vote and so forth — to mobilize. But that’s a weak strategy at best, because Trump holds all the cards. He’s the one with the storm troopers and the terror tactics.
The best strategy Americans have right now is to make it impossible for Trump to contest the next election at all, by calling for his resignation — now. That should have happened long ago. Like I said, no other rich nation, and not even most poor ones, would have tolerated what Trump’s gotten away with to date, and I don’t mean the small abuses of power, like bribery and playing golf while the nation burns, I mean the big ones, like camps, Gestapos, storm troopers, and mass death.
“How is this lunatic still in power?!,” the entire world asks, baffled. “Why don’t Americans remove him?” What the world doesn’t understand about Americans is that they’ve been abused by their leaders so long they’ve forgotten how to take power back from failed elites. You don’t have to wait for an election that’s going to be rigged, manipulated, terrorized, and hijacked. You can demand a failed President resign now.
Maybe I’m being optimistic. Still, don’t imagine that I’m telling Americans what to do. Rather, I’m pointing out what a saner nation would have already done. And I’m pointing out the best way to save a democracy that’s in deep, deep peril.
If Americans don’t begin calling for Trump to resign, in a powerful mass movement, then the next six months, after all, are eminently predictable. Those storm troopers being abducting people and beating moms and gassing mayors across the nation. Opponents and critics and dissidents begin getting disappeared to God-knows-where, under the pretext of “homeland security.” Meanwhile, Trump’s buddies in the Kremlin flood social media with disinformation — while Zuck grins and checks his bank account. The Trumpists — the American Nazis — simmer with rage, anticipating the sweet taste of total power.
In the lead-up to election day, the nation’s on fire. Beatings and disappearances and abductions and gassings are now everyday events. Nobody knows what to do, and an atmosphere of frustration, bewilderment, and anger reign. Trump’s tricks have worked. People have been terrorized. Trumpists join storm troopers in intimidating and frightening everyone else. It’s open season, and “law and order” now means the right to abuse and terrorize anyone who’s not part of America’s Nazi movement.
America’s spirit has been broken.
And when election day finally comes, Trump knows his storm troopers, his propagandists, his Idiot Army — all that can eke out enough of a margin for him to steal the election, if not win it outright.
Bang! And then there is no more American democracy for a generation. Trump is America’s Saddam, it’s Gaddafi, and after him come a long retinue of kids and advisors, even more demented and bloodthirsty than him.
That’s how it works.
That’s what us survivors of authoritarian collapse have to warn you of. If any of that sounds outlandish, to you, still, then let me ask you. Did you think, five years ago, that America would be here? That Donald Trump would be sending his…shock troops…to gas American mayors…while mass death surged? What the?
Your rational side is not your ally right now, because you haven’t lived through this. It’s not helping you to overthink what’s about to happen — because Trump and his army of American Nazis aren’t exactly logical. Your rational side has underestimated American Nazism over the last four years for exactly that reason. But there is no more room for mistakes now.
Those of us who’ve survived all this before — we are trying to share our experience with you. Because we need to, because it’s what decent and sane people must do. And that experience can be summed up in three short principles. It’s always worse — much worse — than your rational side thinks. It’s always as bad as — or worse than — your worst, hidden fears. And when you put those two things together, the only conclusion is: you’d better act like this is your last chance to remain a functioning and free society.
Because it is.
MtnMan
Diamond Member
- Jul 27, 2004
- 8,752
- 7,868
- 136
What the people want doesn't matter, how they vote doesn't matter. He doesn't fucking care. He will do everything in his power to suppress voting, de legitimize the results, and fight in every court, and finally simply refuse to concede or even accept the results.
Remember we are not talking about a rational, sane individual here, but a sick little puppy with a plethora of mental issues. Do not expect rational behavior from the insane.
Indus
Diamond Member
- May 11, 2002
- 9,978
- 6,593
- 136
It’s not Nazi Germany, but it’s in no way a healthy democracy. if the situation were simply rational - But this is Trumpworld. Trump has shown a tendency to take the most outrageous path available. What’s more outrageous than being evicted from the White House? His base would love it. What Trump is doing is testing to see what he can get away with, what BS he peddles he thinks will stick... and I'm sure he will attempt to test the system in ways that it has potentially never been tested before. Trump does outrageous things that are outside of the norm. He admitted he lives for chaos and it is the way he likes to govern. Then the challenge for Trump will be to precipitate an issue that deals with the election process. The kind of legal onanism that originalists love to fondle.
There is no secret conspiracy in what he might do - he’s told us directly that he might not recognize the election if it goes against him. It’s pretty clear he has no regard for the country, the people, the constitution, or anything that isn’t him or his. He has no morals. There is really nothing he won't do to get his way, if he thought he could get away with it. Therefore, it makes no sense to plan for anything he COULD do.
No other president that I know of has questioned the legitimacy of our system as much as he has, or even at all. Every other president, and even the losing candidates, have taken pains to make sure there was confidence in the voting process and the orderly transfer of power.
If he does lose, I could just as easily see Trump not showing up to anything relating to the inauguration of the candidate he just lost to. The guy barely shows up to work. He might just take a three month golf vacation from November through January. If he does show up, it won't be out of any respect for tradition or the importance of symbolizing an orderly transition of power. It will be his last chance to stand before a truly giant audience. He can pretend that they want to say farewell to him while simultaneously asserting that his audience was twice as big. Maybe we’ll even see Melania smile with the knowledge that her ongoing nightmare is coming to a close.
There is no secret conspiracy in what he might do - he’s told us directly that he might not recognize the election if it goes against him. It’s pretty clear he has no regard for the country, the people, the constitution, or anything that isn’t him or his. He has no morals. There is really nothing he won't do to get his way, if he thought he could get away with it. Therefore, it makes no sense to plan for anything he COULD do.
No other president that I know of has questioned the legitimacy of our system as much as he has, or even at all. Every other president, and even the losing candidates, have taken pains to make sure there was confidence in the voting process and the orderly transfer of power.
If he does lose, I could just as easily see Trump not showing up to anything relating to the inauguration of the candidate he just lost to. The guy barely shows up to work. He might just take a three month golf vacation from November through January. If he does show up, it won't be out of any respect for tradition or the importance of symbolizing an orderly transition of power. It will be his last chance to stand before a truly giant audience. He can pretend that they want to say farewell to him while simultaneously asserting that his audience was twice as big. Maybe we’ll even see Melania smile with the knowledge that her ongoing nightmare is coming to a close.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 110,603
- 29,236
- 146
It's also weird how bilking the US Taxpayers out of $500 million via tax fraud, to establish his only "fortune" is somehow not thievery. ...alas, there are many idiots in this country that idolize such asshole conmen like Trump.
He'll leave anyway, even if it's heavily sedated & strapped to a gurney for a ride over to St Elizabeth's. Maybe they'll be able to help him.
Except you have no calculation, data, or study support your broad statement.
It's just you crafting your own conclusion in self-delusion.
Indus
Diamond Member
- May 11, 2002
- 9,978
- 6,593
- 136
We create what we fear. There will be no eventually about it. Stink from Trump, however, is analogous to stink on shit. It’s going to be there fundamentally.
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