American Democracy Will Die in 100 Days

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Nov 8, 2012
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I am going to go Sanders on you here, most of Europe is doing a damned fine job with "singleplayer". Another part of singlepayer is the cost of medicine... well you know the Sanders speech, all I can say is its true. I live it. I've seen my fair share of the inside of that institution, been under the knife many times, and it always leaves me proud and amazed. Going back soon for a few cuts for shit I've done to myself over half a life of being 'active'.
Look we can talk about things like that all you want - but the fact of the matter is you can't talk about that without also discussing the facts that come along with it. How is their single payer system paid for?


1. Europe has substantially higher income taxes on the lower and middle-class than the US. In the US, the bottom 50% LITERALLY pay 0% in income taxes - or they are a net negative on taxes (due to tax credits). That is 100% factual - and there is zero ways you can question that other than being blissfully ignorant (feel free to - there are plenty here that are that retarded). That isn't what happens in Europe. Roughly the top 25% of the US pays roughly 90% of the federal income tax in the US. Again, this is a fact - it's not something you can argue other than cherry picking other data that doesn't apply to my statement.

2. Europe also has a Value Added Tax (VAT). It's essentially our Sales tax system - but on steroids of somewhere between 15-20% depending on the country. In addition, our sales tax system is SPECIFICALLY for STATE and LOCAL (city/county/district) taxes. It is NOT for the federal government, which means if we instituted the same it would be stacked on-top of our current Sales Tax system.

3. Europe also has low corporate taxes - similar to us after our latest tax reform under Republicans:

1596330844351.png


The Point? If you want single payer - prepare to pay for it. No one talks about that part of the argument, but if you want it, you have to pay for it.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
59,697
11,671
126
You clearly didn't read my posts - I know, it's difficult to challenge you to such substantial measures.
Like this one that I refuted directly?

Inyet they can't agree on some very simple stimulus items to keep shit together.

God forbid you give folks money consistently when the economy will be shut down for 9+ months straight....

No no no - gotta go by the establishment party method of occasionally shelling out peanut $1,200 checks on occasion.


The progressive region of the lefties are mocked, laughed at, and ridiculed by the establishment.... And the majority are bending over saying "Yes sir, may I have another?"
Who else would you suggest we give money to other than the unemployed? People who don't need it?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
13,080
3,686
136
Look we can talk about things like that all you want - but the fact of the matter is you can't talk about that without also discussing the facts that come along with it. How is their single payer system paid for?


1. Europe has substantially higher income taxes on the lower and middle-class than the US. In the US, the bottom 50% LITERALLY pay 0% in income taxes - or they are a net negative on taxes (due to tax credits). That is 100% factual - and there is zero ways you can question that other than being blissfully ignorant (feel free to - there are plenty here that are that retarded). That isn't what happens in Europe. Roughly the top 25% of the US pays roughly 90% of the federal income tax in the US. Again, this is a fact - it's not something you can argue other than cherry picking other data that doesn't apply to my statement.

2. Europe also has a Value Added Tax (VAT). It's essentially our Sales tax system - but on steroids of somewhere between 15-20% depending on the country. In addition, our sales tax system is SPECIFICALLY for STATE and LOCAL (city/county/district) taxes. It is NOT for the federal government, which means if we instituted the same it would be stacked on-top of our current Sales Tax system.

3. Europe also has low corporate taxes - similar to us after our latest tax reform under Republicans:

View attachment 27367


The Point? If you want single payer - prepare to pay for it. No one talks about that part of the argument, but if you want it, you have to pay for it.
That makes perfect sense?
IIRC the cost of singleplayer in europe is HALF of what you pay for healthcare in the US.
So copy the model, get costs down. Healthcare for profit is an abomination.
That should immediately offset the 50% that dont pay taxes as you claim.
Also consider that not all Swedish citizens pays taxes. Somehow the wheels keep turning.
Same with free public education.
You know what it all adds up to? The American dream.


The reality you have to face, and its been proven, is that trickle down is a fantasy. Its trickle up that works, ESPECIALLY if you wanna get rich... Maybe not filthy rich buy a US Senate rich, but rich enough to rock the yachts and private planes. What the f you want more than that?
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
15,939
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Yes - but DONT WORRY!

Obamacare fixed it for Greenman. It was an amazing package that fixed our healthcare problems. Just look at his amazing deductibles and monthly payments!

All we need are more establishment plutocrats to pass ONE MORE bill to fix it!
The ACA upped my premium by 50% and my deductible by $3500. Not a good deal for me, but it really helped a few people I know.
Being self employed I'm used to getting fucked and not kissed.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
13,080
3,686
136
The ACA upped my premium by 50% and my deductible by $3500. Not a good deal for me, but it really helped a few people I know.
Being self employed I'm used to getting fucked and not kissed.
Conceptual question, if you make enough bank, are you willing to pay a little extra so someone less fortunate than you gets a break?
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
3,084
1,117
136
Do you ever worry you might completely misread a situation? I think Trump will lose the election and Biden will be President at the appointed time and all this concern is a waste of energy.
You have either totally underestimated his desperation and how mentally ill he actually is, or totally overestimated him as a man with any integrity.

It is going to be a Category 5 shit storm unlike anything we have ever seen.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
16,124
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Conceptual question, if you make enough bank, are you willing to pay a little extra so someone less fortunate than you gets a break?
"A little extra" ?

To quote South Park: "Are you high or just incredibly stupid?"

"A little extra" isn't an epic fuckton in monthly premiums ($1,200 in this case with Greenman) AND a HUGE ASS $6,000 deductible IF and when something happens. Fucking christ, with that level of deductible you have to pray that you have two or more accidents a year, because just one isn't going to even get you past the deductible part - let alone the max out of pocket.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
13,080
3,686
136
"A little extra" ?

To quote South Park: "Are you high or just incredibly stupid?"

"A little extra" isn't an epic fuckton in monthly premiums ($1,200 in this case with Greenman) AND a HUGE ASS $6,000 deductible IF and when something happens. Fucking christ, with that level of deductible you have to pray that you have two or more accidents a year, because just one isn't going to even get you past the deductible part - let alone the max out of pocket.
I am not high, as to stupid, well, we got mixed reportings on that.

What the hell are you talking about?
 
Nov 8, 2012
16,124
2,838
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That makes perfect sense?
IIRC the cost of singleplayer in europe is HALF of what you pay for healthcare in the US.
So copy the model, get costs down. Healthcare for profit is an abomination.
That should immediately offset the 50% that dont pay taxes as you claim.
Also consider that not all Swedish citizens pays taxes. Somehow the wheels keep turning.
Same with free public education.
You know what it all adds up to? The American dream.


The reality you have to face, and its been proven, is that trickle down is a fantasy. Its trickle up that works, ESPECIALLY if you wanna get rich... Maybe not filthy rich buy a US Senate rich, but rich enough to rock the yachts and private planes. What the f you want more than that?
In yet - places like Canada actively pay for their citizens to fly to the US to get treatments for certain cases because they lack the technology, doctors, and necessary intellect to do the procedures locally.

You win some things and you lose others.

We also don't have a line-up in order to get simple procedures such as an MRI. Obviously that comes at a cost, but you get the picture.

The point being, Single Payer is some INSTANT WIN card where you automatically win and are better off for everything in life.



also - in Nordic countries, the majority do pay income taxes unlike how I outlined in the US.

And also - no matter how much you want to pussy-foot around it, Nordic countries that you love to get a hard-on for are known for substantially taxing their populace far more than the US. But don't let facts get in the way of your feelings!
 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
26,592
1,218
126
In yet - places like Canada actively pay for their citizens to fly to the US to get treatments for certain cases because they lack the technology, doctors, and necessary intellect to do the procedures locally.

You win some things and you lose others.

We also don't have a line-up in order to get simple procedures such as an MRI. Obviously that comes at a cost, but you get the picture.

The point being, Single Payer is some INSTANT WIN card where you automatically win and are better off for everything in life.



also - in Nordic countries, the majority do pay income taxes unlike how I outlined in the US.

And also - no matter how much you want to pussy-foot around it, Nordic countries that you love to get a hard-on for are known for substantially taxing their populace far more than the US. But don't let facts get in the way of your feelings!
we already spend enough on healthcare currently that running a single payer system wouldn't actually cost us any additional money - AND it would cover everyone in the country. annual US expenditures on healthcare are approximately $3.6T. under a single payer system. a study funded by the Koch brothers of all people estimated that the 10 year cost of a medicare-for-all system would be about $33T, or $3.3T per year. net savings of $3T over 10 years.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
13,080
3,686
136
In yet - places like Canada actively pay for their citizens to fly to the US to get treatments for certain cases because they lack the technology, doctors, and necessary intellect to do the procedures locally.

You win some things and you lose others.
That is 100% true.

We also don't have a line-up in order to get simple procedures such as an MRI. Obviously that comes at a cost, but you get the picture.
I need an MRI? I get it the next day.
You dont grasp the whole mass production thing yet I think... We have whole departments that do nothing but MRI's ... and they are able to schedule that because of *mass*...

The point being, Single Payer is some INSTANT WIN card where you automatically win and are better off for everything in life.
Ill grant you as much as its an instant win.

also - in Nordic countries, the majority do pay income taxes unlike how I outlined in the US.
And also - no matter how much you want to pussy-foot around it, Nordic countries that you love to get a hard-on for are known for substantially taxing their populace far more than the US. But don't let facts get in the way of your feelings!
True. All of it. And we like it that way. If you want to know why, check the ted talk i linked above. I get rich b. I am making bank. I also know where I am coming from and have NO problem paying my HIGH taxes.
Peace.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,025
2,860
126
You have either totally underestimated his desperation and how mentally ill he actually is, or totally overestimated him as a man with any integrity.

It is going to be a Category 5 shit storm unlike anything we have ever seen.
OK, but what's the problem with that. In 100 days Trump will be gone is what I believe. Remember a shit storm is something you experience in your head. I think you are confusing the fact that Trump will attempt to create a shit storm, that being a rational conclusion to reach, with the irrational, in my opinion, fear you seem to have that he will do that. There are facts and then our reactions to them. I am not having your reaction because I expect a shit storm and that it will be ineffective. I believe Trump is toast and frankly, I think he does too.
 

FaaR

Senior member
Dec 28, 2007
923
269
136
The Point? If you want single payer - prepare to pay for it. No one talks about that part of the argument, but if you want it, you have to pay for it.
Mate, it's the current U.S. healthcare system which is the expensive one, not single payer. You know the way it works in Merica - pay through the nose, almost more than you can afford, you still might not get cover for what you need, or there could be cost caps involved and so on.

Euro health care is about half as expensive on average, pharmaceuticals often a lot less than that. You're getting badly ripped off, and you don't even want to admit it. But ooooohh those taxes!!! (You still pay less despite the taxes tho. Joke's on you mate. ;))

And also - no matter how much you want to pussy-foot around it, Nordic countries that you love to get a hard-on for are known for substantially taxing their populace far more than the US. But don't let facts get in the way of your feelings!
You stare yourself blind on taxes alone, man. You want the things in Merica which you get for free in Scandinavia, you'll have to pay for it too as you're undoubtedly aware - except you'll end up paying A LOT MORE. Like education for example, private schools are expensive, university even more so, but in my country you'd pay nothing. Well, except your living expenses, and for post-high school education, also your student literature.

In part this would be because in the U.S. only some of the people pay for these things, instead of having the entire nation's taxpayers subsidizing it for you as is the case over here, and in part because of for-profit reasons. Like health insurance corporations, whom are nothing but leeches sucking money out of the system while literally contributing nothing in return. No, they don't provide any healthcare (the hospitals do that bit), they just steal peoples' money and enrich themselves with the profits, that's all.

Half the U.S. population, no federal taxes. Right. But you also pay local taxes and fees in the U.S., and I hear these can be pretty steep. And living isn't cheap either from what I hear even despite the supposedly low taxes. I see Mericans complaining all the time that they 'only' make $45k/year and still have to worry over money. If you lived in my country with that kind of income, despite our taxes and our VAT, you would be financially secure (unless stupid, of course.) You wouldn't be rolling in luxury, but you would have a good, decent life. So chew on that one for a bit! lol

Also, Merica is super in debt. You don't pay much in federal taxes, but then you routinely have budget deficits of hundreds of billions to what, upwards of a trillion dollars every friggin' year? EU countries have way more balanced budgets, as a rule. But gee whiz, I suppose shit like that happens when you have 10 friggin aircraft carrier groups, 100+ military bases overseas, the most expensive military planes, tanks and ships money can buy and like 2 million people in prison. It costs a lot of money, but nothing particularly good comes out of it.

But gotta be tough on crime, yeah? 10 years for jaywalking, show those damn criminals who's the boss!
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
3,084
1,117
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OK, but what's the problem with that. In 100 days Trump will be gone is what I believe. Remember a shit storm is something you experience in your head. I think you are confusing the fact that Trump will attempt to create a shit storm, that being a rational conclusion to reach, with the irrational, in my opinion, fear you seem to have that he will do that. There are facts and then our reactions to them. I am not having your reaction because I expect a shit storm and that it will be ineffective. I believe Trump is toast and frankly, I think he does too.
He will be full on destruction mode (of our country and government) in 100 days, and because it falls to the cabinet which he as pre-loaded with his cronies and stooges, plus that the republican majority Senate is as corrupt and damn near as stupid as Trump, the 25th Amendment might as well not exist.

No, the shit storm will be broad spectrum and likely in every city with civil unrest. Even if he is absoultly demolished in the election, neither he, nor the 30-40% that represent his base will accept defeat.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,025
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He will be full on destruction mode (of our country and government) in 100 days, and because it falls to the cabinet which he as pre-loaded with his cronies and stooges, plus that the republican majority Senate is as corrupt and damn near as stupid as Trump, the 25th Amendment might as well not exist.

No, the shit storm will be broad spectrum and likely in every city with civil unrest. Even if he is absoultly demolished in the election, neither he, nor the 30-40% that represent his base will accept defeat.
Seems like we differ in that all I have is an opinion whereas you know what is going to happen. I believe and certainly hope you are wrong.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
10,915
5,081
136
Seems like we differ in that all I have is an opinion whereas you know what is going to happen. I believe and certainly hope you are wrong.
He has an "opinion" too. One based on solid fact. The notion that Trump is just going to walk away after losing the election ignores all past history.
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
59,697
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He has an "opinion" too. One based on solid fact. The notion that Trump is just going to walk away after losing the election ignores all past history.
Whose history? Trump's, or America's? Should Trump lose, we'll likely see a lot of pouting, raving, lying & maybe poseurs marching around with guns, for awhile. Trump doesn't have the deep state power to do anything but abide by the election because he hasn't corrupted it sufficiently to do anything else.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
15,939
1,855
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You have either totally underestimated his desperation and how mentally ill he actually is, or totally overestimated him as a man with any integrity.

It is going to be a Category 5 shit storm unlike anything we have ever seen.
Like riots, shootings, and buildings burned? Sounds like Thursday night to me.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
3,084
1,117
136
Seems like we differ in that all I have is an opinion whereas you know what is going to happen. I believe and certainly hope you are wrong.
I hope I'm wrong too... but I understand exactly how rabid a large number of tRump supporters are. We know tRump will rile them up, just as he does today with a blatantly racist remarks. They are mostly white, mostly poorly educated, mostly racist, and will bring their own cups to drink the orange kool-aid.

As pointed out by eelw many will see rioting as their patriotic duty.
 
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