American Democracy Will Die in 100 Days

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,010
13,737
136
Except you have no calculation, data, or study support your broad statement.

It's just you crafting your own conclusion in self-delusion.

What calculation, data or study support do you need to conclude that when taxes are being used to pay for everyone's health insurance, individuals and employer's don't have to pay for it? And what calculation, data or study support do you need to realize that analyses of how much the program will cost in taxpayer dollars aren't taking this into consideration?

Someone is currently paying for our health insurance, largely private insurance which is more expensive than any insurance provided by the government (i.e. Medicare). An MFA program is just shifting the cost of health insurance from individuals and companies to all taxpayers equally, and lowering the cost of the insurance. If you want a real analysis of the issue, you have to look at not only the cost to taxpayers, but the even greater amount saved in the private sector as a result.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
71,784
5,854
126
Except you have no calculation, data, or study support your broad statement.

It's just you crafting your own conclusion in self-delusion.
Of course it is this same lack of data and total ignorance that has persuaded every other developed nation in the world to fund healthcare through taxes. I am sorry to say but it is you who Is so brainwashed you can’t believe the rest of the world is smarter and more driven by facts than you are. You are, sadly, an ideolog, a true believer, like somebody opposed to vaccines for reasons. This makes you somebody who just has to be written off as rationally unreachable. Bye for now.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,776
146
Of course it is this same lack of data and total ignorance that has persuaded every other developed nation in the world to fund healthcare through taxes. I am sorry to say but it is you who Is so brainwashed you can’t believe the rest of the world is smarter and more driven by facts than you are. You are, sadly, an ideolog, a true believer, like somebody opposed to vaccines for reasons. This makes you somebody who just has to be written off as rationally unreachable. Bye for now.

Nope. Not really. I just debate at a higher level than the 12 year olds here.

I'm simply saying come to the table with an argument with numbers. Don't say "Government provided health insurance is better and we can magically shift over to it and it will cost less"

How will it be paid for? Income Taxes? VAT? Who pays? Everyone? Or only certain classes? I mean for fucks sake - if you can't even BEGIN to craft a statement on how it will be paid for, then you already have no argument.

What will happen to our currently employer provided model?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,363
17,566
146
Nope. Not really. I just debate at a higher level than the 12 year olds here.

I'm simply saying come to the table with an argument with numbers. Don't say "Government provided health insurance is better and we can magically shift over to it and it will cost less"

How will it be paid for? Income Taxes? VAT? Who pays? Everyone? Or only certain classes? I mean for fucks sake - if you can't even BEGIN to craft a statement on how it will be paid for, then you already have no argument.

What will happen to our currently employer provided model?

See Massachusetts for details.

The employer provided model is gone. Employers celebrate, and citizens will as well.

You're funny tho, like Americans all of a sudden care how stuff is payed for, lol.
 

Nereus77

Member
Dec 30, 2016
142
251
136
It's as if Canada, UK, New Zealand, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, etc don't exist as models for data.

If you no longer need medical insurance, you might have some spare for taxes..? If you no longer pay school fees, you might have more for taxes? Imagine if school lunch debt wasn't a thing!

I mean, it's not rocket science. It's just a reallocation of funds, really.

If NZ can pull off Universal Healthcare I'm pretty certain the US would be able to as well.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
82,055
44,870
136
Nope. Not really. I just debate at a higher level than the 12 year olds here.

I'm simply saying come to the table with an argument with numbers. Don't say "Government provided health insurance is better and we can magically shift over to it and it will cost less"

How will it be paid for? Income Taxes? VAT? Who pays? Everyone? Or only certain classes? I mean for fucks sake - if you can't even BEGIN to craft a statement on how it will be paid for, then you already have no argument.

What will happen to our currently employer provided model?

It's kind of mind boggling that you don't understand the basic principle people are telling you here. The funding mechanism is not a relevant part of the argument here. Does Medicare cost more or less than the cost of private insurance for the same individual? It costs less. Therefore, it is a net reduction in overall health spending. You are paying for people's private insurance just like you're paying for Medicare. The only difference is the 'tax' is built into the MSRP.

I have to say I haven't witnessed this 'higher level' of debate you claim to engage in. Mostly you run in here and call people names, then it turns out you don't understand what you're talking about and you disappear again.
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
8,521
3,845
136
It's as if Canada, UK, New Zealand, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, etc don't exist as models for data.

If you no longer need medical insurance, you might have some spare for taxes..? If you no longer pay school fees, you might have more for taxes? Imagine if school lunch debt wasn't a thing!

I mean, it's not rocket science. It's just a reallocation of funds, really.

If NZ can pull off Universal Healthcare I'm pretty certain the US would be able to as well.
But as many politicians say, size of US population makes it difficult to have a public health care system. If CANZUK does form, we’d still only be half the population size
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,114
9,176
136
But as many politicians say, size of US population makes it difficult to have a public health care system. If CANZUK does form, we’d still only be half the population size

Not sure if sarcasm or not. What does our size have to do with it? We already spend more per capita than those countries and plenty of studies show overall spending would decrease with UHC. So the problem is not one of population size or density.
 

Stokely

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2017
1,443
1,742
136
"our current employer-provided model" is managing to go away with no help from anyone. How may companies are hiring contractors these days instead of permanent employees? One reason is they don't have to supply benefits. I do get employer-provided healthcare and pay over 1000 a month (united health care) for a family. Hardly a bargain.

Bottom line, we spend more for less and the trend is not "health care is getting better and cheaper all the time!". Anything and everything should be on the table to reform our broken system. We should be able to honestly look around the world to see what has worked and what hasn't, but the American mentality is to simply say "our way is best, shit on the rest" and pretend we are the only modern nation on earth.
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
8,521
3,845
136
Not sure if sarcasm or not. What does our size have to do with it? We already spend more per capita than those countries and plenty of studies show overall spending would decrease with UHC. So the problem is not one of population size or density.
Well I’m only parroting what many American politicians say in interviews why they can’t implement public health care. Since I’m Canadian, could care less your government is too stupid and corrupt to implement it.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
71,784
5,854
126
It's kind of mind boggling that you don't understand the basic principle people are telling you here. The funding mechanism is not a relevant part of the argument here. Does Medicare cost more or less than the cost of private insurance for the same individual? It costs less. Therefore, it is a net reduction in overall health spending. You are paying for people's private insurance just like you're paying for Medicare. The only difference is the 'tax' is built into the MSRP.

I have to say I haven't witnessed this 'higher level' of debate you claim to engage in. Mostly you run in here and call people names, then it turns out you don't understand what you're talking about and you disappear again.
He claims to be after data in a world where every other developed country has national healthcare and spends less per person than we do here. His problem isn't needing data. It's looking for ways to keep from seeing it.

"A fool convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Or, "You can always tell a bigot, but you can't tell him much."

These sayings exist because the desire to deny is driven by fear and fear is felt internally making it feel as thought it is objectively real. Americans have been brainwashed for decades to fear liberals and liberal ideas.

Unfortunately, we create what we fear and now it's liberals who will give conservatives bad names and treat them like they treated liberals in the past. The price of going full retard................
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,680
136
See Massachusetts for details.

The employer provided model is gone. Employers celebrate, and citizens will as well.

You're funny tho, like Americans all of a sudden care how stuff is payed for, lol.

It's the standard GOP whipsaw. Tax cuts for the Rich pay for themselves & benefits for regular Americans are a waste of money. It's a bullshit argument, anyway. Other advanced countries do it just fine so I'm sure we can learn what we need to know from them. Or scratch that. American exceptionalism means we have to reinvent the wheel, every time, cuz we's so smart. Our pandemic response is a wonderful example of that.
 
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MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
8,592
7,617
136
Nope. Not really. I just debate at a higher level than the 12 year olds here.

I'm simply saying come to the table with an argument with numbers. Don't say "Government provided health insurance is better and we can magically shift over to it and it will cost less"

How will it be paid for? Income Taxes? VAT? Who pays? Everyone? Or only certain classes? I mean for fucks sake - if you can't even BEGIN to craft a statement on how it will be paid for, then you already have no argument.

What will happen to our currently employer provided model?
It's better because everyone has it. Why the hell do you think a band-aid cost $150.00 at a hospital in the US? Because you are paying for those without insurance.