[AMD] World's First Shipping FreeSync-Enabled Displays (CES)

[RussianSensation]

^ You can Google all the problems with ROG Swift, I am not doing that work for you. It doesn't matter that the A-Sync ASUS monitor isn't officially labelled FreeSync since both Asus and AMD have confirmed AMD's FreeSync will work on it. There is even a video posted in the thread confirming this. The point is at $599 Asus is already able to bring what is likely a superior IQ monitor than the Swift, with adaptive sync, and at a much lower price. It's just a matter of time before reviewers verify this in professional reviews. All signs at CES point to a far greater selection of FreeSync monitors, in terms of panel sizes, panel types and refresh rates -- already a massive improvement over GSync.

As far as Intel users upgrading immediately to a FreeSync monitor, I never implied such a statement. The point is if FreeSync is an open standard, sooner or later when someone goes to buy a new monitor, whether they have a weaker Intel GPU than a discrete AMD/NV card is irrelevant. If FreeSync becomes THE standard, then this gamer will get the benefit of A-Sync in 2015, 2016, 2018, 2040, etc.

Besides, you have already openly admitted you will never buy AMD graphics cards/products so your opinion on this whole matter is not objective to begin with. What's ironic is that since you will never own AMD graphics, it should be of no concern to you whatsoever since if FreeSync succeeds, NV will support it, if GSync succeeds, you have an NV graphics card. You defending GSync is thus completely illogical unless you plan on keeping your Titan SLI forever. Chances are if FreeSync takes off, NV will support both standards. Backing GSync now is the same as opposing open standards for PC gaming. No objective PC gamer would want to ever oppose open standards unless the open standard was proven to be inferior overall to the proprietary choice.

 

[5150Joker]

PSR was proposed a while ago as part of eDP and DP 1.3.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/introducing-the-panel-self-refresh-technology/1384
http://liliputing.com/2012/04/intel-future-could-use-less-power-panel-self-refresh-tech.html
intel was the main promoter back in the early ultrabook days, using it as a bulletpoint to highlight how low energy they were going to be. so its been coming for a while, but i'm not sure how widely implemented in lap/notebooks.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7208/understanding-panel-self-refresh
anand quotes LG at a 26% power savings for PSR on soc applications. monitors dont use that much less energy, but the gpu and the memory buses can see some benefit.

the adaptive vsync addendum to 1.2a and 1.3 means PSR is coming to desktops. AMD will use it for games and video media, Intel will likely use it for PSR so they can sell corporate customers on upgrading cpu/apu to reduce power costs.

either way monitors with vesa Async will be defacto as the scaler chip makers are going with the standard.

if every new monitor going forward has Async functionality for variable refresh rate, there is very little business sense in nvidia competing with established scaler chip makers.
competing in a new market where everyone else already has established customers, supply chains, ip, experienced personnel is not something a board of directors is going to approve of just to get a niche market of gamer monitor buyers. the seeming $200 premium for the gsync FPGA just cant compete with the established chip makers and without massive changes in sales/buying doesnt justify spending millions for an ASIC version. i have yet to see a single article on nvidia going forward with the ASIC.

You're making a ton of assumptions. The primary one being that just because async is part of a DP standard that NVIDIA must support the entire gamut of it's features. They can, through drivers, elect not to support adaptive sync and keep pushing G-sync and based on their current statements, that is what they and their board of directors have decided. As of today, Free Sync/Adaptive Sync will only work on AMD graphics cards and for the foreseeable future unless we hear something different.

 

[5150Joker]

^ You can Google all the problems with ROG Swift, I am not doing that work for you. It doesn't matter that the A-Sync ASUS monitor isn't officially labelled FreeSync since both Asus and AMD have confirmed AMD's FreeSync will work on it. There is even a video posted in the thread confirming this.

Why should I google it? I own it and know it doesn't overheat. Some people had issues w/their displays and that was one theory by forum posters (I was one of them on OCN) but it was never substantiated. I live in the hot Arizona desert and mine hasn't come close to overheating. That's why I told you to post proof rather than spreading FUD.

As far as Intel users upgrading immediately to a FreeSync monitor, I never implied such a statement. The point is if FreeSync is an open standard, sooner or later when someone goes to buy a new monitor, whether they have a weaker Intel GPU than a discrete AMD/NV card is irrelevant. If FreeSync becomes THE standard, then this gamer will get the benefit of A-Sync in 2015, 2016, 2018, 2040, etc.

Besides, you have already openly admitted you will never buy AMD graphics cards/products so your opinion on this whole matter is not objective to begin with. What's ironic is that since you will never own AMD graphics, it should be of no concern to you whatsoever since if FreeSync succeeds, NV will support it, if GSync succeeds, you have an NV graphics card. You defending GSync is thus completely illogical unless you plan on keeping your Titan SLI forever. Chances are if FreeSync takes off, NV will support both standards. Backing GSync now is the same as opposing open standards for PC gaming. No objective PC gamer would want to ever oppose open standards unless the open standard was proven to be inferior overall to the proprietary choice.

My preference for NVIDIA graphics cards has nothing to do with it. I've stated already that I think NVIDIA should support Async but realistically I don't see that happening because they've invested 2 years + who knows how much money into G-Sync. To capitulate would mean they lost to AMD and I really don't see that happening, standards or not.

 

[RussianSensation]

NV has little to power to force GSync if consumers think for themselves. All the power is in the consumers hands because they get to vote with their wallet. If most consumers decide that it's morally correct to support open standards vs. choosing the guranteed forced proprietary option, then NV will have no choice but to support FreeSync. Assuming FreeSync is not inferior in the real world based on professional reviews, The only question remains if the majority of PC gamers value open standards that PC has promoted since day 1 more than their brand bias.

If the market is segregated to GSync vs. FreeSync, that would hurt all gamers who play games on Intel graphics unless Intel also supports FreeSync. If Intel and AMD both support FreeSync, and it's proven as effective as GSync in reviews, but NV still chooses to not support both FreeSync and GSync, it will only prove that NV could care less about PC gamers. For many PC gamers such a move would create a major negative PR associated with NV and further exacerbate NV's image that many already consider a milking cows greedy GPU firm that prefers the Apple closed vendor locked business model than the traditional open standards PC model.

This would be similar to AMD coming out and saying that Mantle is superior to OpenGL and DX, so they will stop supporting those standards. Instead AMD gives options to gamers with Mantle vs. DX which is an ethical thing to do. If NV thinks GSync is superior, they would not be concerned to support both standards since well GSync would be superior and the market would choose it anyway. The fact that NV still refuses to support both GSync and FreeSync simultaneously shows NV isn't confident that GSync is actually better. NV is bound to adopt DP 1.3 which means there is no reason whatsoever that their cards won't support FreeSync unless
NV purposely locked this out in GPU/display controller's firmware.

I still remember when NV charged a licensing fee for SLI and refused to have working SLI on non-NV chipsets. Hopefully consumers make the right choice and back open standards once again.

 

[5150Joker]

NV has no power to do anything here. All the power is in the consumers hands because they get to vote with their wallet. If most consumers decide that it's morally correct to support open standards vs. choosing the guranteed forced propeietary option, then NV will have no choice but to support FreeSync. Assuming FreeSync is not inferior in the real world based on professional reviews, The only question remains if the majority of PC gamers value open standards that PC has promoted since day 1 more than their brand bias.

So NVIDIA with it's lions share of the discrete market has "no power to do anything" while it will certainly be crushed because PC gamers suddenly develop a "moral" center backing open standards? Man what are you smoking? I guarantee you most PC gamers could not give a damn about standards, they just want their games to run well with reliable drivers and look pretty--and NVIDIA has that market cornered.

 

[USER8000]

What some people fail to realise is that most of the major scaler companies have supported the VESA standard which FreeSync depends on,and this means as time progresses there is more chance of FreeSync capable monitors hitting the sub £200/sub $250 market as compatability is introduced into more scaler models. This means gamers on a budget, who are one major part of the market, who could benefit a lot from adaptive v-sync(due to them not have the fastest cards) would do so with FreeSync/any equivalent from Intel. The G-Sync module adds costs and with cheaper monitors even if it were only $60(its more AFAIK) that would mean nearly a 40% price hike on a model like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-422-_-Product

FreeSync is only a software solution using a VESA standard,meaning Intel and plenty of ARM licensees could develop their own software interface.

 

[5150Joker]

What some people fail to realise is that most of the major scaler companies have supported the VESA standard which FreeSync depends on,and this means as time progresses there is more chance of FreeSync capable monitors hitting the sub £200/sub $250 market as compatability is introduced into more scaler models. This means gamers on a budget, who are one major part of the market, who could benefit a lot from adaptive v-sync(due to them not have the fastest cards) would do so with FreeSync/any equivalent from Intel. The G-Sync module adds costs and with cheaper monitors even if it were only $60(its more AFAIK) that would mean nearly a 40% price hike on a model like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-422-_-Product

This could be true if we knew the breakdown of the costs of Async vs G-Sync and if Intel supported the standard for their igfx. However, that still doesn't force NVIDIA to use it. Gamers that want a discrete gaming card would still have to buy either AMD or NVIDIA and a corresponding monitor that those vendors support. It really changes nothing. Unless as I said before, if all the discrete gamers decided to throw their weight behind Adaptive Sync and abandon NVIDIA graphics cards, the market will remain the way it has traditionally been with NVIDIA charging a premium and still owning the majority share. I'll put it more simply: For almost as long as I can remember and this is especially true recently, AMD has priced their cards lower than NVIDIA and in many cases offered better priceerformance ratio but that still did not change their standing in the market - they continue to shrink. So why would Adaptive Sync all of the sudden change that? It doesn't matter if it's a standard or not.

 

[USER8000]

This could be true if we knew the breakdown of the costs of Async vs G-Sync and if Intel supported the standard for their igfx. However, that still doesn't force NVIDIA to use it. Gamers that want a discrete gaming card would still have to buy either AMD or NVIDIA and a corresponding monitor that those vendors support. It really changes nothing. Unless as I said before, if all the discrete gamers decided to throw their weight behind Adaptive Sync and abandon NVIDIA graphics cards, the market will remain the way it has traditionally been with NVIDIA charging a premium and still owning the majority share. I'll put it more simply: For almost as long as I can remember and this is especially true recently, AMD has priced their cards lower than NVIDIA and in many cases offered better priceerformance ratio but that still did not change their standing in the market - they continue to shrink. So why would Adaptive Sync all of the sudden change that? It doesn't matter if it's a standard or not.

Three of the major scaler companies have adopted FreeSync compatable scalers:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2014/09/22/amd-freesync-deal/1

There are economies of scale right there as a result and also price competition too between the companies so they can get into different companies monitors. As the tech trickles down to the scalers used in cheaper models,there is more likelihood of budget FreeSync monitors being made available than budget G-Sync ones.

Plus your last part makes little or no sense. If someone sees a FreeSync enable BenQ monitor for $160 and a G-Sync enabled BenQ one for $230 do you really think they will care about the G-Sync one??

Its a BenQ monitor,a trusted brand.

Plus in most budget builds,monitors are more an afterthought anyway and cost is a more important factor.

Thats my impression on BOTH US and UK forums in the "spec me a build" sections.

 

[RussianSensation]

So NVIDIA with it's lions share of the discrete market has "no power to do anything" while it will certainly be crushed because PC gamers suddenly develop a "moral" center backing open standards? Man what are you smoking? I guarantee you most PC gamers could not give a damn about standards, they just want their games to run well with reliable drivers and look pretty--and NVIDIA has that market cornered.

You seem to have completely forgotten that Intel has the majority of the graphics card market cornered, not NV. Intel's graphics will continue to improve and for many gamers they are going to be good enough for Blizzard titles and less demanding games. If Intel backs FreeSync, which I don't see why they wouldn't, more than 80% of graphics units in the world will support FreeSync monitors with time. You also have provided no explanation as to why it would be so bad for us if NV supported both standards? Really, let NV put their $$$ where their mouth is -- support both GSync and FreeSync if they think the former is superior. NV not supporting FreeSync shows they care more about making $$ by locking you into their eco-system rather than improving the gaming industry on the whole -- exact business model promoted by Apple's proprietary standards.

According to your comments, since NV has the majority market share in dGPUs, they could create their own API and try and throw DX12/OpenGL under the bus. I guess NV users would support that too?

If Intel adopts FreeSync and FreeSync monitors come out way faster, in greater varieties and higher overall quality/availability than GSync, it will be very risky for NV to just keep brushing aside FreeSync. Considering Samsung is launching every 2015-model 4K PC monitor with FreeSync, that shows how quickly the major monitor manufacturers are backing an open VESA standard.

 

[USER8000]

I don't see why some people keep defending what Nvidia is doing - I have a GTX660TI BTW. If G-Sync is 10X better than FreeSync then Nvidia would support both standards wouldn't they?? People will instantly find G-Sync 10X better and then forget about FreeSync/N-Sync/whatever name its given if you have a Nvidia GPU.

Its almost like they feel worried that if they support it,potential G-Sync customers won't buy monitors with it and hence reduce their return on G-Sync. It indicates to me more a lack of faith in their own product TBH!!

Edit to post.

Nvidia has supported competitor's standards too - look at PhysX and TressFX. They didn't block TressFX running on their own GPUs despite having their own hair/fur physics too.

 

[Silverforce11]

If NV supports FS, its a win for gamers all round. More monitor brands would be encouraged to release FS monitors if it had broader support, thus driving competition and lowering prices.

If NV only supports Gsync, its a loss for gamers and depending on if Intel push it as well, could end up being a loss for NV too.

 

[RussianSensation]

^ Exactly. If NV supports both FreeSync and GSync, NV users with existing GSync monitors lose nothing in terms of performance and adaptive sync. Since PC hardware depreciates in price, early adopters of GSync were well aware that $900-1000 Swift carried a large premium associated with this new tech. No one forces NV users to buy AMD cards or FreeSync monitors but the opposition against FreeSync is startling and it's generally coming from PC gamers who only buy NV. Why these same people want to promote GSync when a FreeSync+GSync NV GPUs will only give them MORE monitor buying choices leaves a big question mark...

 

[Pantalaimon]

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-amd-adaptive-sync-freesync,27736.html

That proves nothing. If you look for statements from Toshiba before they folded HD DVD I bet you can find Toshiba executives swearing up and down about how they would not make bluray players and would stick with HD DVD.

 

[dacostafilipe]

nVidia should just support adaptive vsync (A-Sync, AV-Sync, AVRR ?!?!) and ask money for the G-Sync sticker on the box.

 

[5150Joker]

^ Exactly. If NV supports both FreeSync and GSync, NV users with existing GSync monitors lose nothing in terms of performance and adaptive sync. Since PC hardware depreciates in price, early adopters of GSync were well aware that $900-1000 Swift carried a large premium associated with this new tech. No one forces NV users to buy AMD cards or FreeSync monitors but the opposition against FreeSync is startling and it's generally coming from PC gamers who only buy NV. Why these same people want to promote GSync when a FreeSync+GSync NV GPUs will only give them MORE monitor buying choices leaves a big question mark...

LOL because it's a conspiracy...or we're secretly working for NVIDIA. :twisted: And btw, my Swift cost $732 before taxes, not $900-$1000 and I got it from Amazon. Lastly, ALL I see above is the same old wishful thinking, "if Intel supports it" while developing amnesia that Intel doesn't mean squat to gamers that purchase AIB for discrete gaming or those gamers that purchase gaming notebooks. Besides, Intel has made no statements regarding Adaptive Sync so right now, all we know is AMD is alone in supporting it with it's teeny tiny market share. And fellas, to keep the mods from closing the thread, I'll end my participation in the G-Sync vs ASync discussion w/this post. Feel free to make a thread on the topic and I'll reply there.

 

[dacostafilipe]

TFTCentral prices the Acer XB270HU (144hz,AHVA-IPS,G-Sync) at 699€. It uses the same AU Optronics M270DAN02.3 panel as the Acer MG279Q (120hz, FreeSync) that is planed to cost 599$ ($, not &#8364

 

[stahlhart]

G-Sync versus Freesync is relevant in this thread -- if participants can surprise us all by somehow managing to avoid getting personal or otherwise violate forum rules while discussing it, it will remain open.
-- stahlhart

 

[Black Octagon]

That AU Optronics panel is AHVA, not IPS. Note that the panel used is not confirmed by ASUS (nor ACER, AFAIK). TFTCentral are just making an educated guess since it's the only IPS-like panel to be recently announced with support for refresh rates up to 144Hz.

 

[dacostafilipe]

That AU Optronics panel is AHVA, not IPS.

As far as I know, AHVA is just AUO's variant of IPS.

Note that the panel used is not confirmed by ASUS (nor ACER, AFAIK). TFTCentral are just making an educated guess since it's the only IPS-like panel to be recently announced with support for refresh rates up to 144Hz.

Acer is known to use AUO panels and the only panel fitting the sepcs is the M270DAN02.3. As I see it, we don't really need a confirmation in this case.

 

[ShintaiDK]

TFTCentral prices the Acer XB270HU (144hz,AHVA-IPS,G-Sync) at 699€. It uses the same AU Optronics M270DAN02.3 panel as the Acer MG279Q (120hz, FreeSync) that is planed to cost 599$ ($, not &#8364

Is the € price with or without sales tax, and if so, how much tax?

Else the difference is simply 144hz vs 120hz.

Seems to be with VAT. If we assume UK VAT, that would be 582.5€ to compare. Or around 690$.

 

[dacostafilipe]

Else the difference is simply 144hz vs 120hz.

This and the more gamer oriented design, maybe?

 

[Creig]

Now that FreeSync is becoming a reality for desktop users, I wonder how long it will be before we hear the announcement of FreeSync enabled laptops? Don't forget that the very first FreeSync demo was shown on a Toshiba laptop. Given the fact that laptops generally have lower graphics processing abilities than desktops, FreeSync could definitely help the laptop gaming crowd as well.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Now that FreeSync is becoming a reality for desktop users, I wonder how long it will be before we hear the announcement of FreeSync enabled laptops? Don't forget that the very first FreeSync demo was shown on a Toshiba laptop. Given the fact that laptops generally have lower graphics processing abilities than desktops, FreeSync could definitely help the laptop gaming crowd as well.

As far as I can tel. The lowest hz on a freesync monitor sofar is 40hz while on gsync its 30hz. If you get below these values you get artifacts etc.

So I dont think its good for laptop gaming, unless the bar gets a lot lower.

This bar also worries me for both freesync and gsync.

 

[ShintaiDK]

This and the more gamer oriented design, maybe?

Quite possible. But the faster panels used for the 144hz version and the ~90$ price delta basicly means the implementation cost is the same for the enduser. Not a surprise since we deal with companies and not charities.

 

[Creig]

As far as I can tel. The lowest hz on a freesync monitor sofar is 40hz while on gsync its 30hz. If you get below these values you get artifacts etc.

No, the BenQ XL2730Z is able to hit 30Hz, the same as G-sync.

So I dont think its good for laptop gaming, unless the bar gets a lot lower.

This bar also worries me for both freesync and gsync.

It's all going to depend on the panel being used and whether or not manufacturers now start to focus on coming out with lower frequencies as well as higher. FreeSync is reported to be able to work anywhere from 9Hz to 240Hz. So it should be ready to go once we start seeing panels with even lower refresh rates.

Also, I'm not sure if it's even possible for G-sync to be transplanted into a laptop while the very first FreeSync demo was shown on a Toshiba laptop.