Discussion AMD SoC Halo series GPU discussion

[adroc_thurston]

they expect something that is cheaper than a dGPU solution of similar power, that's what they've been hearing, that APUs will replace midrange GPUs. So something like what the consoles have, that is what people expect

Then they should start buying metric tons of stxH now. Moar volume == way lower per unit price

 

[marees]

I told you halo iGPUs are not worth it.

People fancy halo iGPUs without being conscious of why they want an iGPU in the first place. They are almost free and use little power.

Intel tried multiple times and it didn't work out. AMD won't be better off here, because the underlying reasons for a big iGPU is the same - charge more, which loses one big reason for having an iGPU in the first place which is low cost.

You need either dedicated solution like Intel's eDRAM or on package memory like Kabylake-G, or in Strix Halo's case 256-bit memory which complicates board design with extremely low volume plus new R&D for board.

It is always nice to have options

Kaby Lake G = PS4
Strix Halo = PS5
maybe in future an nvidia APU might match PS6 ?

 

[jpiniero]

Also, we aren't even getting latest 3nm with these products. Strix Point is very expensive for what it is, Strix Halo is outrageously expensive, and yet still 4nm?
People still complain about how ridiculously expensive Apple is, but a Mac Mini M4 Pro is made with N3E and looking more desirable to me than one of these Strix Halo Mini PCs, is 3nm that expensive or is just AMD wanting outrageous margins here?

Clearly Strix Halo is intended to be like the M4 Max (which isn't available on the Mini)

 

[DavidC1]

@adroc_thurston

The point is, the vast majority of less informed and less versed people, when they hear about powerful APU, they expect something that is cheaper than a dGPU solution of similar power, or equal price at most, that's what they've been hearing, that APUs will replace midrange GPUs. So something like what the consoles have, that is what people expect.
From hearing people hyped about powerful APU, at least a year or more before this, the excitement was never about the price being similar to Apple's Mx Pro/Max chips but that being ok because of the efficiency and thinness benefits.

Here's a good overview of why halo iGPUs suck.

Architecture smarchitecture, making it more expensive means it'll remain niche.

If it's the same cost as the dGPU, then why does it matter whether you have a halo "iGPU" or not? And if you are getting it for a gaming system, an older Alderlake one paired with 4060 would be noticeably cheaper, meaning you save money.

Halo iGPUs are made by CPU manufacturers to up-sell, which is counterintuitive to why there is an allure to them to begin with.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Architecture smarchitecture, making it more expensive means it'll remain niche.

Wrong.

an older Alderlake one paired with 4060 would be noticeably cheaper, meaning you save money.

Really bad POV since older stuff will always be cheaper.
Doesn't matter if it's a chungus APU or a cheap rickety plastic-fantastic entry level MSI dGP gaming craptop.

Halo iGPUs are made by CPU manufacturers to up-sell, which is counterintuitive to why there is an allure to them to begin with.

No it's made to substitute lower end discrete graphics altogether.
Please stop doing this meme, Qualcomm and Nvidia are doing stxH lane comp too.
Only Intel is left out for reasons idk why.

 

[DavidC1]

Really bad POV since older stuff will always be cheaper.
Doesn't matter if it's a chungus APU or a cheap rickety plastic-fantastic entry level MSI dGP gaming craptop.

Lol, who cares? I don't get the halo iGPU obsession. I understand it, but from a user's point of view it makes no difference whether it's on the CPU package or it's a separate board like a dGPU. I care about the product, how it performs, how it looks, how it's priced.

You underestimate the power Nvidia has over OEMs, and also customers. They were bundling Geforce MX series laptops cheaper than Intel's Iris parts. If Intel for example sold their GT3 parts at $20 premium over their iGPU it would have sold pretty well.

Price is like the single greatest reason why iGPUs are wanted by many. Having a 256-bit memory interface on a large die negates this completely.

AMD isn't giving you Strix Halo for charity purposes. It's purely to upsell, and have better margins.

Also, if these GPUs become the lowest tier like you are saying, then the price needs to reflect that too.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I don't get the halo iGPU obsession

No one is. But it's a nice option.

It's purely to upsell, and have better margins.

Wrong.

You underestimate the power Nvidia has over OEMs, and also customers. They were bundling Geforce MX series laptops cheaper than Intel's Iris parts.

That was always an Intel issue.
iGPs killed MX off successfully anyway.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Lol, who cares? I don't get the halo iGPU obsession. I understand it, but from a user's point of view it makes no difference whether it's on the CPU package or it's a separate board like a dGPU. I care about the product, how it performs, how it looks, how it's priced.

You underestimate the power Nvidia has over OEMs, and also customers. They were bundling Geforce MX series laptops cheaper than Intel's Iris parts. If Intel for example sold their GT3 parts at $20 premium over their iGPU it would have sold pretty well.

Price is like the single greatest reason why iGPUs are wanted by many. Having a 256-bit memory interface on a large die negates this completely.

AMD isn't giving you Strix Halo for charity purposes. It's purely to upsell, and have better margins.

Also, if these GPUs become the lowest tier like you are saying, then the price needs to reflect that too.

Mostly. By combining one pool of memory and an APU, it seemed to have the promise of being cheaper than CPU+ Memory, and dGPU + VRAM.

If price isn't there isn't that much to get excited about.

AMD seems to be leaning heavily into the big memory pool for AI...

 

[Mopetar]

People have been saying how APUs would replace mid range GPUs because how dedicated GPUs were getting so expensive. I mean, are you kidding me?

I don't recall people making that claim about mid-range GPUs, but it was said about low range GPUs and that's proven to be correct.

I don't know to what extent they could be expected to replace a mid-range GPU though because at a certain point you're slapping CPU cores on a GPU instead of building graphics into the CPU.

GPUs aren't just expensive for a single reason, but large monolithic dies a part of it. To make an APU capable of competing with mid-range GPUs is at this time also going to require a large monolithic die so there's no cost savings.

For now these type of parts are going to be targeted at the professional market. It's true that they can be used for gaming as well and will put out impressive results for an APU, but that's not the primary focus even if a few hobbyists use them for gaming rigs.

 

[gdansk]

It'd be cool on an mITX board anyway.
But I suppose that's the lowest priority of AMD.

 

[misuspita]

I don't think we'll ever see a Halo desktop cpu, a la 5700G or 8700G. But that would be awesome. I mean, I like the beelink minisforum and geekom, but their guarantee post sale is next to 0. A socketed version would be very much desirable

 

[MS_AT]

A socketed version would be very much desirable

To have HALO like iGPU you need significant Mem BW. AM5 socket is not able to provide even half of what Strix Halo will have, therefore it won't happen. Maybe Threadripper Halo...

 

[Heartbreaker]

To have HALO like iGPU you need significant Mem BW. AM5 socket is not able to provide even half of what Strix Halo will have, therefore it won't happen. Maybe Threadripper Halo...

There goes any hope of it being less expensive than an equivalent CPU plus dGPU.

 

[marees]

Any chance of valve using a cut down strix halo for shield TV like device (maybe for VR ?)

 

[GTracing]

Any chance of valve using a cut down strix halo for shield TV like device (maybe for VR ?)

I'd say it's possible but unlikely. Steam Machines were poorly received, and I don't see Valve attempting to break into the tv-box market again. Plus a traditional eight core CPU with an RX 7600 would be better for gaming and cheaper.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Any chance of valve using a cut down strix halo for shield TV like device (maybe for VR ?)

Depends on how much AMD would be willing to sell them those parts, but one would assume Valve is now important enough of a client to be able to order an actual semicustom part for themselves (instead of grabbing someone else's abandoned semicustom chips like they did with Van Gogh).

I.e. Valve could/should order a monolithic APU without the NPU, 12 cores Zen5+5c, just 4x PCIe 5.0 and sell it in a much cheaper handheld/set-top box than Strix Halo one ever could.

 

[marees]

I'd say it's possible but unlikely. Steam Machines were poorly received, and I don't see Valve attempting to break into the tv-box market again. Plus a traditional eight core CPU with an RX 7600 would be better for gaming and cheaper.

This is exactly what valve has tested

I was hoping that prod box would upgrade to (a cut-down) strix halo

 

[GTracing]

This is exactly what valve has tested

I was hoping that prod box would upgrade to (a cut-down) strix halo

Yeah, that would definitely be a cool device. Part of me hopes they do it, even though I'd never buy one, lol.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Okay bros I need your best cope as to why it actually sucks™.

 

[poke01]

View attachment 115660
Okay bros I need your best cope as to why it actually sucks™.

I haven’t seen a single person outside of the YouTube bubble own a Rog Flow Z13.

still need to see an independent review that’s not a review unit or first party marketing but it’s looking good so far.

I’m more excited for that HP halo laptop.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I haven’t seen a single person outside of the YouTube bubble own a Rog Flow Z13.

Well I ain't talking any specific design win, just the SoC itself.

I’m more excited for that HP halo laptop.

that one is very $$$

 

[poke01]

just the SoC itself.

that is excellent barring RDNA 3.5.

 

[branch_suggestion]

View attachment 115660
Okay bros I need your best cope as to why it actually sucks™.

Well it cannot be price, that config was $2500 ameribux for 1TB/32GB
Full STXH starts at $2200.

 

[adroc_thurston]

that is excellent barring RDNA 3.5.

The excellent part is the gfx perf, which is yea RDNA3.5.

 

[branch_suggestion]

The excellent part is the gfx perf, which is yea RDNA3.5.

RDNA4 would've been awesome with its major bandwidth efficiency gains.
Well, Medusa Halo with RDNA5 and hopefully an even wider LPDDR6 bus, yeah.