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Question AMD Rembrandt/Zen 3+ APU Speculation and Discussion

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leoneazzurro

Senior member
Jul 26, 2016
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Stacked cache is for high-end due to the increased cost. APUs relying on the iGPU are historically targetted at low-end. Doing an APU with stacked cache would be definitely possible, but it must be seen where the market is for such a product in the PC world, because enthusiasts will use a discrete card anyway, and most of low-end users will be limited by the iGPU FP performance. There are probably users who will love an iGPU and stacked cache, but it must be seen, if they are enough to justify the effort. We have seen that when there is an interest AMD is more than willing to create exotic products (i.e. Van Gogh, consoles' APUs).
 

Joe NYC

Senior member
Jun 26, 2021
372
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Stacked cache is for high-end due to the increased cost. APUs relying on the iGPU are historically targetted at low-end. Doing an APU with stacked cache would be definitely possible, but it must be seen where the market is for such a product in the PC world, because enthusiasts will use a discrete card anyway, and most of low-end users will be limited by the iGPU FP performance. There are probably users who will love an iGPU and stacked cache, but it must be seen, if they are enough to justify the effort. We have seen that when there is an interest AMD is more than willing to create exotic products (i.e. Van Gogh, consoles' APUs).
AMD could make an APU with GPU fast enough that the notebook would not need a separate GPU. This market would be quite large.

It would need a large infinity cache, so that DDR5 bandwidth would not grind the GPU to a halt.

It could be done, but maybe with APU following Rembrandt...

By then, Intel will be doing it, so perhaps, AMD will view this as a permission to finally release an APU that would obsolete mobile dGPUs.
 

LightningZ71

Senior member
Mar 10, 2017
942
908
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While having a stacked L3 cache on an APU would certainly be a way of improving it's performance, let's not kid ourselves too much here. The needs of the CPU and the needs of the GPU are quite different when it comes to cache design. Instead of stacking the L3 on the APU, AMD would get VASTLY more mileage by stacking an HBM module on the CPU, or, making a small, mobile package that has the APU die inside of it in addition to an HBM stack connected via a back bus in addition to the main external DRAM bus. Yes, this CERTAINLY makes this a more premium product, but, its a way to make a product that can obviate the need for all but the highest end dGPUs. On TSMC N5, in the same die area that they currently exist in, they can have 8 cores and 8-12 WGPs of RDNA2 that clock high enough to almost close the gap in throughput with the 6600m. Combined with a single 8GB stack of HBM2e, it would easily be able to handle anything at 1080p and likely be quite capable at 1440p, while being considerably smaller on the PCB and easier to design a cooling system for.

We won't see it, of course, but it's not some far-out project. The question is, would there be enough volume on the product to make it profitable, and, what would the be sacrificing to make it?
 
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moinmoin

Platinum Member
Jun 1, 2017
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What I wonder is when we will be at the point that dGPUs in laptops are no longer been seen as a selling point to average consumers just by existing. Currently there are plenty laptop models that add a dGPU equal or weaker than the iGPU. As long as that happens there is no real need to push iGPU performance in mainstream APUs forward beyond the point of beating the competition.
 

Spicy

Junior Member
Oct 5, 2021
9
20
36
The chips that are in production are mobile variants. There is a TINY chance we could see a desktop release, but I am expecting, barring leaked information to the contrary, to not see a desktop variant until at least 12 months from the release of Zen 3 APUs.
I think Rembrandt will be lauchned on the AM5 platform sooner.
3 points:
1. Zen 4 (Raphael) is expected to be launched Q4 2022. Usually, AMD releases its APU version (Phoenix G) 2-3 quarters later. So, Rembrandt G should be launched prior to Raphael, to have a decent life time. I bet Q2 2022 (thanks to point 2).
2. Some rumors predict AM5 motherboards will be released Q2 2022. Which CPU will we be able to buy with this MB? Raphael? Not available. Rembrandt G? I think that.
3. A leaked document reveals that the AM5 platform will begin its career with 3 processor types: models 40h, models 60h and models 70h
- Models 40h have 20 pcie lines and a USB 4 controller.
Rembrandt is known for having 20 PCIe 4.0 lines and an integreted USB 4 controller.
So Type 1 / 40h is Rembrandt G (~Q2 2022).

- Models 60h have 28 pcies lines but no USB 4 port.
Raphael is known for having 28 PCIe 4.0 lines and an other leaked document reveals that 4 of them can be connected to an external USB 4 controler, deported on the motherboard (so, not integrated to the processor).
So, Type 2 / 60h is Raphael (~Q4 2022)

- Models 70h again have 20 pcie lines and USB 4 ports. This is typically an other G APU.
So, Type 3 / 70h should be Phoenix (~H1 2023)

I bet Q1 2022: 6000U/H mobile versions, Q2 2022: 6000G Pro/OEM versions, Q3 2022: 6000G retail versions (like Cezanne 2021 roadmap).

The next refresh Zen 3D will be named 6000X, Raphael: 7000X and Phoenix 7000U/H/G.

Raphael will have an integreted Graphic Processor, but it will not confront Rembrandt G/Phoenix G, because its iGP will be very tiny.
Here we know that Raphael's iGP will be integreted to the IODie and looks small (while the size on the picture is not representative of the reality). So it will not be a dedicated RDNA chiplet.
And here, we know that AMD is working on a very small RDNA 1 iGP (without RT).
I bet this is what we will find on 7000X Zen 4 Raphael. Enough for home office, web and movies. For gaming / 3D? Buy a G APU or a discret GPU.

(Of course, this is only my personal feeling/analysis. May be wrong!)
 
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Kepler_L2

Member
Sep 6, 2020
65
169
66
I think Rembrandt will be lauchned on the AM5 platform sooner.
3 points:
1. Zen 4 (Raphael) is expected to be launched Q4 2022. Usually, AMD releases its APU version (Phoenix G) 2-3 quarters later. So, Rembrandt G should be launched prior to Raphael, to have a decent life time. I bet Q2 2022 (thanks to point 2).
2. Some rumors predict AM5 motherboards will be released Q2 2022. Which CPU will we be able to buy with this MB? Raphael? Not available. Rembrandt G? I think that.
3. A leaked document reveals that the AM5 platform will begin its career with 3 processor types: models 40h, models 60h and models 70h
- Models 40h have 20 pcie lines and a USB 4 controller.
Rembrandt is known for having 20 PCIe 4.0 lines and an integreted USB 4 controller.
So Type 1 / 40h is Rembrandt G (~Q2 2022).

- Models 60h have 28 pcies lines but no USB 4 port.
Raphael is known for having 28 PCIe 4.0 lines and an other leaked document reveals that 4 of them can be connected to an external USB 4 controler, deported on the motherboard (so, not integrated to the processor).
So, Type 2 / 60h is Raphael (~Q4 2022)

- Models 70h again have 20 pcie lines and USB 4 ports. This is typically an other G APU.
So, Type 3 / 70h should be Phoenix (~H1 2023)

I bet Q1 2022: 6000U/H mobile versions, Q2 2022: 6000G Pro/OEM versions, Q3 2022: 6000G retail versions (like Cezanne 2021 roadmap).

The next refresh Zen 3D will be named 6000X, Raphael: 7000X and Phoenix 7000U/H/G.

Raphael will have an integreted Graphic Processor, but it will not confront Rembrandt G/Phoenix G, because its iGP will be very tiny.
Here we know that Raphael's iGP will be integreted to the IODie and looks small (while the size on the picture is not representative of the reality). So it will not be a dedicated RDNA chiplet.
And here, we know that AMD is working on a very small RDNA 1 iGP (without RT).
I bet this is what we will find on 7000X Zen 4 Raphael. Enough for home office, web and movies. For gaming / 3D? Buy a G APU or a discret GPU.

(Of course, this is only my personal feeling/analysis. May be wrong!)
Everything here is correct except the Cyan Skillfish bit, that is the PS5 APU not Raphael IGP.
 

Joe NYC

Senior member
Jun 26, 2021
372
357
96
I think Rembrandt will be lauchned on the AM5 platform sooner.
3 points:
1. Zen 4 (Raphael) is expected to be launched Q4 2022. Usually, AMD releases its APU version (Phoenix G) 2-3 quarters later. So, Rembrandt G should be launched prior to Raphael, to have a decent life time. I bet Q2 2022 (thanks to point 2).
2. Some rumors predict AM5 motherboards will be released Q2 2022. Which CPU will we be able to buy with this MB? Raphael? Not available. Rembrandt G? I think that.
3. A leaked document reveals that the AM5 platform will begin its career with 3 processor types: models 40h, models 60h and models 70h
- Models 40h have 20 pcie lines and a USB 4 controller.
Rembrandt is known for having 20 PCIe 4.0 lines and an integreted USB 4 controller.
So Type 1 / 40h is Rembrandt G (~Q2 2022).

- Models 60h have 28 pcies lines but no USB 4 port.
Raphael is known for having 28 PCIe 4.0 lines and an other leaked document reveals that 4 of them can be connected to an external USB 4 controler, deported on the motherboard (so, not integrated to the processor).
So, Type 2 / 60h is Raphael (~Q4 2022)

- Models 70h again have 20 pcie lines and USB 4 ports. This is typically an other G APU.
So, Type 3 / 70h should be Phoenix (~H1 2023)

I bet Q1 2022: 6000U/H mobile versions, Q2 2022: 6000G Pro/OEM versions, Q3 2022: 6000G retail versions (like Cezanne 2021 roadmap).

The next refresh Zen 3D will be named 6000X, Raphael: 7000X and Phoenix 7000U/H/G.

Raphael will have an integreted Graphic Processor, but it will not confront Rembrandt G/Phoenix G, because its iGP will be very tiny.
Here we know that Raphael's iGP will be integreted to the IODie and looks small (while the size on the picture is not representative of the reality). So it will not be a dedicated RDNA chiplet.
And here, we know that AMD is working on a very small RDNA 1 iGP (without RT).
I bet this is what we will find on 7000X Zen 4 Raphael. Enough for home office, web and movies. For gaming / 3D? Buy a G APU or a discret GPU.

(Of course, this is only my personal feeling/analysis. May be wrong!)
Hats off @Spicy that's a hell of a first post. Welcome.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,365
978
136
Van Gogh is the new low end APU for low power systems. That you are able to get a full system including this chip as portable for $399 should tell you everything. Every new AMD APU after this should improve on it (except for AV1 support for whatever crazy reason...).
8CU RDNA2 seems like a lot for a low end APU. For reference, the current one has a Vega 3 and they seems to be in no hurry to upgrade the process (still on 14nm) or the IGP (there are 12nm ones that are actually full Picasso dies, still with just 3CU).

Also, considering RMB is 12CU, the likely segmentation of RMB is 12, 10 and 8CUs. So i dont think that the lower end APU to have have more than 4, maybe 6 CUs as a best-case scenario (a half RMB).
 
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LightningZ71

Senior member
Mar 10, 2017
942
908
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Half RMB you say? Something like a quad CPU core Zen3 product with an RDNA2 iGPU? Something like Monet? (GloFo 12nm, 4 x Zen3 + RDNA2)?

If Monet actually appears on the market, it will certainly take the place of their lowest end APU products.
 

LightningZ71

Senior member
Mar 10, 2017
942
908
136
That one tweet is just about the only mention of it, save for another that references the CPUID being on N6 and having RDNA2. That reminds me a lot of the CPU in the Steam Deck. Zen2, RDNA2... Maybe it's just an N6 shrink of it?
 

ahimsa42

Member
Jul 16, 2016
41
15
81
i think it's the 15W mobile chip which may be a game changer. not everyone who games is into FPS or games above 1080p so if the 6500/6800U with DDR5 can around double the GPU performance of the 4500U, it should suffice for the vast majority of users who will then not have deal with discrete gpu cards. i have a 4500U lenovo myself and am astounded at the performance this 15W chip. after many years of building my own i no longer see the point of doing so if i can get everything i am looking for in a slim 15" laptop for under $1k.
 

LightningZ71

Senior member
Mar 10, 2017
942
908
136
The pickings in the $600-$800 range are just astounding these days. From 5700U/i5-1135G7 convertibles and thin & lights, to traditional laptops with 1650s in them, you can get a decent 1080p gaming experience in a very mobile footprint for a reasonable price.
 

moinmoin

Platinum Member
Jun 1, 2017
2,772
3,673
136
That appears to be a follow up to Pollock. Do you happen to know the difference between Dali and Pollock? I always thought 3015e and 3020e were using Dali dies.

Edit: No difference between those and Raven 2 according to Linux drivers at least. Wonder what necessitates all these different code names and IDs.
 
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ahimsa42

Member
Jul 16, 2016
41
15
81
The pickings in the $600-$800 range are just astounding these days. From 5700U/i5-1135G7 convertibles and thin & lights, to traditional laptops with 1650s in them, you can get a decent 1080p gaming experience in a very mobile footprint for a reasonable price.
it is amazing but even more so that a 15W laptop with no DGC may be able to approach the performance of a 5700U/1650.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,365
978
136
That appears to be a follow up to Pollock. Do you happen to know the difference between Dali and Pollock? I always thought 3015e and 3020e were using Dali dies.

Edit: No difference between those and Raven 2 according to Linux drivers at least. Wonder what necessitates all these different code names and IDs.
They are Dali cores... i would think that the ID change is needed for firmware support.
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,817
3,654
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That one tweet is just about the only mention of it, save for another that references the CPUID being on N6 and having RDNA2. That reminds me a lot of the CPU in the Steam Deck. Zen2, RDNA2... Maybe it's just an N6 shrink of it?
No, it's smaller. Less WGPs and whatnot.
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,817
3,654
116
That appears to be a follow up to Pollock. Do you happen to know the difference between Dali and Pollock? I always thought 3015e and 3020e were using Dali dies.

Edit: No difference between those and Raven 2 according to Linux drivers at least. Wonder what necessitates all these different code names and IDs.
Yeah, they're fundamentally the same physical die. AMD just seems to codename literally everything.
 
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NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
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Dali is selected for FP5 socket, Pollock is selected for FT5 socket.
Dali has SATA and Full DDR_PHY (128-bit).
Pollock has no SATA and is Half DDR_PHY (64-bit).

There is other changes like SFH(Sensor Fusion Hub) being more enabled in Pollock, but mostly irrelevant to a consumer.
 
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Spicy

Junior Member
Oct 5, 2021
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Everything here is correct except the Cyan Skillfish bit, that is the PS5 APU not Raphael IGP.
Really? What makes you say that?
PS5 has Navi 2, not Navi 1, and this driver is very recent (committed some mounths ago).
Notebookcheck has the same intuition.
Maybe it won't be Cyan Skillfish, maybe RDNA2, but I still think a light version of it (few CUs).
 
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