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Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

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TESKATLIPOKA said:
Discussion was about successor of 5600G/5700G meaning 7600G/7700G(Phoenix). Don't know why you changed that to 5700G, which has a much weaker Vega8 as an IGP. And that IGP is nowhere near GTX 1650's level of performance.
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Regarding a potential 7700G, I think at some point the AM5 platform cost will come down. AM4 and DDR4 was also more expensive in the beginning when introduced, but dropped in price over time.

So then 7700G will be much cheaper than 5700X + RX6600. Also, the 7700G will have better CPU performance (but lower GPU performance), and the benefit of being on AM5 with upgrade option to later Zen generations. If this turns out to be true, I think there's definitely a market for it.

That said, there is no single system solution that fits everyone. Others may make other prioritizations.
 
TESKATLIPOKA said:
Why would anyone make a new PC with only that little GPU performance in 2023?
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For the exact same reason they'd get a 5700G.
sales.JPG
#9 and #10 best selling on amazon isn't bad especially considering that lowly 7600x down there at #12.

Frankly not everyone is building a gaming computer, many people out there are still in to PC gaming but only play occasionally, and usually they stick to older games. Intel's considerable GPU market share on steam also really goes to show many people are content with slower computers.

I don't think a 7700G/7600G at $329/$249 is too unfair for launch prices and its what I'd expect based off last gen's MSRP. Obviously not as good of a value as the the 5000G's are right now but hey not everyone has the same budget and in 2 years they'll be killer prices with cheap AM5 mobos (finally). But by then we'll all be talking about zen 6 APUs lol.
 
Fjodor2001 said:
Regarding a potential 7700G, I think at some point the AM5 platform cost will come down. AM4 and DDR4 was also more expensive in the beginning when introduced, but dropped in price over time.

So then 7700G will be much cheaper than 5700X + RX6600. Also, the 7700G will have better CPU performance (but lower GPU performance), and the benefit of being on AM5 with upgrade option to later Zen generations. If this turns out to be true, I think there's definitely a market for it.

That said, there is no single system solution that fits everyone. Others may make other prioritizations.
Click to expand...
The cost already has come down. I just did a quick and dirty search. Without trying I found an AM5 motherboard and 16gb of RAM for $225. I bet you can get it even cheaper, probably under $200. Add in a 7600 for $220 and you just need a case, PSU, etc. You don’t even technically need a GPU unless you game. You can probably put together an entire system (sans-GPU) for under $500.

If AMD would release cheaper AM5 parts I imagine they would sell.

Maybe they should release some Zen 3 mobile parts on AM5.
 
TESKATLIPOKA said:
Why would anyone make a new PC with only that little GPU performance in 2023? That level of performance I had in my laptop for almost 5 years.

BTW for GTX 1650 level of performance you would have to buy 7700G instead of 5700G and Zen4 based CPUs are a lot more expensive than the previous generation. Let's not forget about costlier AM5 motherboard and DDR5.

So the question is for what will that PC be used for?
If It's for budget gaming then
5700G + A520 board + 16GB 3200MHz DDR4 + RX 6600 would cost 482 euro.
7700(G) + A620 board + 16GB 6000MHz DDR5 would cost 508 euro.
I think the winner is clear.
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If a 7700G cost as much as a 5700X+RX6600 then AMD needs to stop stealing and lower the AM5 prices. They havent doing so because they have zero competition for desktop APUs.

When the 2200G/2400G launched they didnt cost as much as going for a discrete gpu + Ryzen 1200/1400, even something like the GT1030 that was around the same level of performance had a higher price overall both with Intel and AMD cpus. Not to mention the RX550 and the RX560.
Then they lost the necesity to have better apus and started to cut back on IGP size and havent released something new ever since.

If Intel were to release an APU that was faster than the 5700G suddently all these problems of "RDNA3 APUs have to be expensive" would dissapear overnight.
 
Shivansps said:
If Intel were to release an APU that was faster than the 5700G suddently all these problems of "RDNA3 APUs have to be expensive" would dissapear overnight.
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Intel had their shot with Meteor Lake but they chose to cancel it on desktop. Though you never know. A zombie MTL-S could rise up from the grave on 31st December 😛
 
Shivansps said:
If a 7700G cost as much as a 5700X+RX6600 then AMD needs to stop stealing and lower the AM5 prices. They havent doing so because they have zero competition for desktop APUs.

When the 2200G/2400G launched they didnt cost as much as going for a discrete gpu + Ryzen 1200/1400, even something like the GT1030 that was around the same level of performance had a higher price overall both with Intel and AMD cpus. Not to mention the RX550 and the RX560.
Then they lost the necesity to have better apus and started to cut back on IGP size and havent released something new ever since.

If Intel were to release an APU that was faster than the 5700G suddently all these problems of "RDNA3 APUs have to be expensive" would dissapear overnight.
Click to expand...
The price of 7700G was calculated based on the current prices for 5700G and 5700X in euro.

Next gen will be very interesting from the IGP perspective. There will be Strix Point and Strix Halo.
Ok, Strix Halo will be expensive, wouldn't be surprised If CPU+dGPU would end up cheaper or more performant in comparison, but still very interesting.
What I am more interested is about Strix Point's IGP improvement.
16CU is not that big an uplift, but If they managed to fix power consumption in RDNA3.5, then It could provide a nice boost unless BW will limit It.

Intel will shortly release MTL. We will see how good the IGP will end up, but I have high hopes at least for the raw performance based on specs.
 
First Impressions of the Lenovo Legion Go
I think It is a better handheld than the one from Asus, but let's wait for some benchmarks.

​
Screenshot_1.pngScreenshot_2.png

Right controller can be turned into a vertical mouse(joystick) and both can work without being connected to the main body.
And there is also a screenshot of the insides.
Lenovo did a pretty good job in my opinion.
 
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chipsandcheese.com

Hot Chips 2023: AMD’s Phoenix SoC

AMD’s mobile and small form factor journey has been arduous.
chipsandcheese.com chipsandcheese.com

Yet another excellent piece from Chips And Cheese. I found it most interesting that AMD has woken up to the importance of memory latency and massively improved LPDDR5 latency -> 120ns vs 160ns with V. Gogh is no joke and will be boon for all those handheld gaming consoles.
Oh, and full 32bytes per cycle write from CPU to fabric is minor but nice detail for CPU, that due to 16MB L3 might hit that situation more than desktop chips with 32MB's.
 
Videocardz
MICROCENTER-LEGION-GO.jpg


Very nice, but It's regrettable that there is no higher RAM option.
 
videocardz.com

First AMD Ryzen 8040U mobile and desktop Ryzen 7000G Zen4 CPU series spotted - VideoCardz.com

AMD Ryzen 8000U and Ryzen 7000G series spotted in shipping manifests AMD is preparing at least several new parts right now, all based on the Zen4 architecture. There has been a discussion regarding the complex nomenclature employed for Ryzen 7000 mobile CPUs. With the unveiling of the series...
videocardz.com videocardz.com

Videocardz implying that Phoenix might be coming to AM5 soon... but only Little Phoenix. The Ryzen 5 might only have 4 cores too.
 
videocardz.com

AMD formally launches Ryzen 5 7545U and Ryzen 3 7440U featuring efficient Zen4c cores - VideoCardz.com

AMD details Zen4c cores in consumer Ryzen 7040U series The company is providing new details on their hybrid implementation of Zen4 architecture. It is no secret that the Ryzen 7040U series indeed incorporates both Zen4 and Zen4c cores. This information has been available since the series was...
videocardz.com videocardz.com

AMD formally admits to Zen 4c in Little Phoenix. I guess the 7540U was probably the Big die with the specs cut to the same as the new 7545U SKU.
 
So do we consider this AMD's first hybrid chip or not? I'm still confused about Ian's stance not considering Little Phoenix and claiming AMD hybrid chips are still way out.
 
moinmoin said:
So do we consider this AMD's first hybrid chip or not? I'm still confused about Ian's stance not considering Little Phoenix and claiming AMD hybrid chips are still way out.
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It is their first chip, but it's also not a very important die in the grand scheme of things.

It's like the AIE on PHX pretty much. A trial run before it gets serious, kind of. Still the first product, but one they can get some learnings from.
 
It doesn't matter if it could be called hybrid, I would rather call them the same architecture.

What shocks me is it seems AMD found out the 2+4(7545U) die is a little bit stronger than 6+0(7540U) so AMD decide to name 2+4 die 7545U which makes it looks literally greater number and stronger. Shocking.
 
I'd consider that significant even if it's not important in the grand scheme of things (in both cases AIE and mixing Zen4/Zen4c).

cortexa99 said:
What shocks me is it seems AMD found out the 2+4(7545U) die is a little bit stronger than 6+0(7540U) so AMD decide to name 2+4 die 7545U which makes it looks literally higher number and stronger. Shocking.
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That's not how the model number scheme works.

----

AT's report is more detailed than VidyaCardZ's:

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cortexa99 said:
What shocks me is it seems AMD found out the 2+4(7545U) die is a little bit stronger than 6+0(7540U) so AMD decide to name 2+4 die 7545U which makes it looks literally greater number and stronger. Shocking.
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It will be faster... in Cinebench, at less than 15W TDP. This is definitely not a good year for AMD marketing.

AMD-RYZEN-7040U-Zen4c-SMALL-PHOENIX.jpg

moinmoin said:
That's not how the model number scheme works.
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Unfortunately that's exactly how it works, unless we want to try and explain to a consumer that "lower model within segment" can mean the higher performance model 😀

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/fejXy4FQ8rLgMQ7uAUWowT-970-80.png
 
uzzi38 said:
It is their first chip, but it's also not a very important die in the grand scheme of things.
Click to expand...

Just the opposite. They needed the cost savings from the smaller die to make Phoenix viable.

Edit: I had assumed that they are/would have used the 7540U for both versions but possibly Legal insisted they separate the two.
 
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