Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

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insertcarehere

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Jan 17, 2013
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If It had the same FPS/$ as CPU+dGPU including Vram, no one would want to buy It.
Do you know how much profit does AMD need to make on an APU to be worth It, because I don't?
We're talking in circles here then. You're arguing AMD needs to provide value with an APU vs CPU/DGPU setup while I am arguing that AMD would probably be better off selling more CPUs/dGPUs at the pricing where such APU would provide value, classic catch-22.

Remember that a significant portion of APU demand comes from laptop OEMs, and Dell/Lenovo/Asus et al aren't gonna pay higher prices for processors in XPS 13s/Thinkpads/Zenbooks just because there's a bunch more GPU in the die, given said GPU can't be utilized due to inherent form factor limitations, and that even they did, the end consumer may not pay a premium for such extra capability anyways.

This is not true for this case, because this big Zen4 APU is using N4 and Raphael is using N5, so different production lines.
Doesn't matter here, AFAIK, wafer costs for both processes are similar and AMD doesn't order N4/N5 separately. Rembrandt being N6 did not prevent supply being utterly terrible initially, presumably because AMD wanted the wafers in N7 form for their other products.
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

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May 1, 2020
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We're talking in circles here then. You're arguing AMD needs to provide value with an APU vs CPU/DGPU setup while I am arguing that AMD would probably be better off selling more CPUs/dGPUs at the pricing where such APU would provide value, classic catch-22.

Remember that a significant portion of APU demand comes from laptop OEMs, and Dell/Lenovo/Asus et al aren't gonna pay higher prices for processors in XPS 13s/Thinkpads/Zenbooks just because there's a bunch more GPU in the die, given said GPU can't be utilized due to inherent form factor limitations, and that even they did, the end consumer may not pay a premium for such extra capability anyways.

Doesn't matter here, AFAIK, wafer costs for both processes are similar and AMD doesn't order N4/N5 separately. Rembrandt being N6 did not prevent supply being utterly terrible initially, presumably because AMD wanted the wafers in N7 form for their other products.
I didn't say this big APU would be for everyone, or that It should have been made instead of the current Phoenix. This was meant as an extra design.

I originally started this talk about big IGP with Strix Point in mind, which I expected as a chiplet design and where IGP could be on a separate chiplet.
Zen4 24CU monolith was a by-product when I calculated cost for Phoenix with different IGP sizes.
I thought It could be profitable to make and there would be demand for this.
You had a different opinion and started looking at "possible" profit loss compared to 16C Raphael.

It looks like your issue is not with this big APU per se, but with AMD not reserving enough wafers.
I automatically calculated with AMD buying(reserving) extra wafers for this APU, so It won't affect other products.
So the question is If there are enough wafers or not.

P.S. Why do you think AMD is reserving capacity for N4/N5 or N6/N7 together?
It should be a different production line, so this doesn't make any sense to me.
TSMC doesn't have an unlimited production capacity for each process, and there are other customers who also buy wafers depending on what they need.
Nvidia for example uses only N4 and no N5 for their consumer GPUs.
If AMD doesn't reserve a specific amount of wafers for each node, then TSMC wouldn't know how much of the unused capacity for either N5 or N4 can be sold to someone else.
 
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guidryp

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Apr 3, 2006
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Attempt to redirect the APU discussion from the general RDNA 3 architecuture thread, to the actual APU thread.

Maybe some company does need to work with AMD for them to want to make product like this, but as the market changes and evolves I think we'll see stronger APUs that creep upwards in capabilities to capture the eroding low-end of the GPU market.
Isn't this what we have seen for years? Continual iGPU performance evolution/creep upward.

The only disagreement going on is between just that evolution continuing, or the big leap forward (~double more gains in one generation).

I don't think that big of a leap is likely due to memory BW and cost constraints.
 
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Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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It's very big for a mainstream APU, and double Phoenix. 100% increase is a VERY BIG increase.

But it's just a rumor, Phoenix was also rumored to be 24 CUs.

Because doubling something is great click bait...
PHX was rumored to be 6 WGPs, 12 CUs, with each one WGP double the ALUs - 1536. We ended up with 6 WGPs, 12 CUs, 768 ALUs with dual issue.
 

guidryp

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Apr 3, 2006
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guidryp

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2006
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View attachment 75434

Snippet from this:

CPU and WGP count the same as Rembrandt(8 CPU cores, 6 WGPs).
16-24 CU rumor, From the Same Guy 2 months earlier, "coincidentally" same guy is also the source of Strix 24 CU rumor this time.

We are further from Strix Point, than the earlier 24 CU rumors of Phoenix were from Phoenix Launch.

Generally the further from release the more inaccurate (and made up) the rumors.

So his early 24 CU rumor for Strix, is no more reliable than his early 24 CU rumor for Phoenix was.
 

guidryp

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Apr 3, 2006
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Another redirect from the Architecture thread.

AMD competition (for the APU, iGPU) ranges from less capable Intel processors to more capable Apple M1/M2, to mobile CPUs paired with dGPU.
Newsflash. You need to pick one. There is no "one size fits all" in this competition.

Aim low and you can't perform like higher end parts. Aim high and you can't compete on price with the lower offerings.
 

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