AMD @ GDC: Partnership with MS next-generation graphics.

[ShintaiDK]

this is so bizzare. the biggest mantle haters are now best friend with ms and their pr slide show and 2-years-away-dx12. its actually very funny :awe:

It rather seems the Mantle evangalists are hurt over that Mantle wont dominate and kill off everything else in the favour of an AMD controlled API and GPU market.

Instead both DirectX and OpenGL now offers the same and cross all platforms from PCs, consoles and tablets/smartphones for all hardware suppliers.

 

[HWfreak]

It rather seems the Mantle evangalists are hurt over that Mantle wont dominate and kill off everything else in the favour of an AMD controlled API and GPU market.

Instead both DirectX and OpenGL now offers the same and cross all platforms from PCs, consoles and tablets/smartphones for all hardware suppliers.

Like everyother tech AMD has come up with it would have been shared with Nvidia once more refined, they said right from the start they would do that.

It seems Nvidia don't want to go down that rout.

Instead they have aligned themselves with Console pushers Microsoft, which perpetuates an API monopoly, Nvidia are empowering Microsoft to keep control of GFX API's.

All Nvidia had to do was to team up with with AMD, work with them to kill Microsofts unhealthy API dominance wich has been the reason PC Gaming has been stuck in a rut for the past 10 years.

Put your Green loyalties aside for just long enough to think about what Nvidia did here.
And all just because they want to fight AMD instead of working with them (at all costs)

 

[ASM-coder]

It rather seems the Mantle evangalists are hurt over that Mantle wont dominate and kill off everything else in the favour of an AMD controlled API and GPU market.

I think you are reaching when call suggest anyone here is a "Mantle evangelist" since I haven't read any comments that say "you should use mantle, or buy AMD cards." Some people like it, some people think it is has made an impact, and some people look forward to more games. Some people think it is worthless. That's ok, we all have opinions. But I ain't trying to convert anyone, and I doubt anyone else is. This is a message board. I think in the entire history of the internet, no one has ever been converted on a message board. We are just defending our opinions.

And NOBODY is "hurt over that Mantle won't dominate and kill off everything else."

A: It's still way too early to know the fate of mantle.
B: Those who use and like mantle are happy right now.
C: Those who tried mantle and are disappointed, are only disappointed because they didn't get the performance/stability they had hoped.

You seem to suggest that all of us "Mantle evangelists" are egomaniacs with open schadenfreude tendencies.
We are just gamers looking for better performance(within our budgets)

 

[Keysplayr]

Like everyother tech AMD has come up with it would have been shared with Nvidia once more refined, they said right from the start they would do that.

It seems Nvidia don't want to go down that rout.

Instead they have aligned themselves with Console pushers Microsoft, which perpetuates an API monopoly, Nvidia are empowering Microsoft to keep control of GFX API's.

All Nvidia had to do was to team up with with AMD, work with them to kill Microsofts unhealthy API dominance wich has been the reason PC Gaming has been stuck in a rut for the past 10 years.

Put your Green loyalties aside for just long enough to think about what Nvidia did here.
And all just because they want to fight AMD instead of working with them (at all costs)

Nothing wrong with empowering Microsofts API dominance. You've been enjoying that API dominance for quite a while now, unless you tell me that you've never enjoyed a DX game.

 

[NTMBK]

So when ARM companies such as Qualcomm backs DX12, its also for consoles? And now suddenly AMD loves DX12. Less than a year after they claimed there would be no DX12.

Of course AMD love DirectX 12, it's a copy paste of the API that they wrote...

 

[HWfreak]

Nothing wrong with empowering Microsofts API dominance. You've been enjoying that API dominance for quite a while now, unless you tell me that you've never enjoyed a DX game.

Did you even read what i said?

How about addressing that instead of perpetuating the Status Quo

I enjoy BF4 in Mantle a hell of a lot more than DX.

 

[krumme]

Nothing wrong with empowering Microsofts API dominance. You've been enjoying that API dominance for quite a while now, unless you tell me that you've never enjoyed a DX game.

Well. For the last 6 years i have suffered very bad ports. Single threadded engines and games that except for bf looks the same.

And the only company innovating was dice with their fb engine. Ue looks the same as 4 years ago and and i fear ue4 is worse than fb2 because ue3 is not near fb2 level.

So yes. Compettition is needed very much. Mantle gives superior performance and if dx12 is more or less the same then in 2 years we can start to see the first games here. Super. Let us just hope win9 is good.

But right now devs is signing on for mantle with all the highend engines. dx12 gets a quote from ue about future ue4 suppprt presumably in win12. That is a disappointment, and i dont know why the dev support is THAT weak? It is a surprice it is that meager.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I enjoy BF4 in Mantle a hell of a lot more than DX.

Same, it runs incredibly well under Mantle. You don't need a single graph or bench to know either, it just runs so nicely. But there are people who are willing to wait 2 years to maybe get a similar experience, I really don't understand it.

Nothing wrong with empowering Microsofts API dominance. You've been enjoying that API dominance for quite a while now, unless you tell me that you've never enjoyed a DX game.

Enjoying might be the wrong word, more like tolerating. As soon as you run Mantle you quickly realize, oh....DX is not so good.

 

[ASM-coder]

from the new PCper article, NVidia seems to have been working on some new DX11 super driver which may boost deferred context performance quite a bit to parity with Mantle..

So I read the PCper article, and those are some pretty impressive numbers for DX11 coming from NVidia. I would say "parity with Mantle" is an understatement.
It looks to me like NVidia users are going to get a huge boost in a few weeks with that next driver release. I am a bit skeptical since the numbers are so impressive, and why did it take this long to to get here? But hey, if NVidia can achieve this, then I will expect AMD to take up the challenge.
What is your expectation of real world improvements?

 

[krumme]

Same, it runs incredibly well under Mantle. You don't need a single graph or bench to know either, it just runs so nicely. But there are people who are willing to wait 2 years to maybe get a similar experience, I really don't understand it.


Enjoying might be the wrong word, more like tolerating. As soon as you run Mantle you quickly realize, oh....DX is not so good.

Low level api just works and in bf4 it just gives a far better experience.

And thats why i dont understand why nv wants to be tied to ms. Take eg bf5. It will presumably be made for dx12 and mantle. But what is the economics in building a game setting for win9? For both nv and dice a win7-9 would obviously be preferred. They dont have the same interest as ms.

Its a dangerous strategy for nv. In effect they just move money from dice/ea to ue when the tide is turning. Ofcource if win9 is a success, Steam linux platform stales and mobile market stagnates and dont develop its the best bet. But its like betting the future will be like the past. And if there is anything we know about the future its that its not going to be the same as the past.

 

[HWfreak]

So I read the PCper article, and those are some pretty impressive numbers for DX11 coming from NVidia. I would say "parity with Mantle" is an understatement.
It looks to me like NVidia users are going to get a huge boost in a few weeks with that next driver release. I am a bit skeptical since the numbers are so impressive, and why did it take this long to to get here? But hey, if NVidia can achieve this, then I will expect AMD to take up the challenge.
What is your expectation of real world improvements?

Which one? in the CPU efficiency they used Metro as an illustration, Nvidia GPU PhysX using the GPU with Nvidia and the CPU with AMD, an obvious fallacy to all but the most laymen of readers.

In the Star Swarm App they used a top on the line 12 Thread Intel CPU and did not provide any information on what settings they used, i can match or beat Nvidia's i7 3960K + 780TI score with a 4 year old AMD Phenom II CPU and still be GPU bound if i use Mantle.

 

[ASM-coder]

Which one?

From the article:
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/NVIDIA-Talks-DX12-DX11-Efficiency-Improvements
"This graphic, provided by NVIDIA of course, shows 9 specific Direct3D 11 functions. The metric of efficiency in this case is rated by the speed increase between the AMD R9 290X in red and the three different progressive driver versions in green on a GTX 780 Ti. The Draw, SetIndexBuffer and SetVertexBuffers functions have gone through several hundred percent performance improvements since just the R331 driver stack to an as-yet-unreleased driver due out in the next couple of weeks."

 

[krumme]

Which one? in the CPU efficiency they used Metro as an illustration, Nvidia GPU PhysX using the GPU with Nvidia and the CPU with AMD, an obvious fallacy to all but the most laymen of readers.

In the Star Swarm App they used a top on the line 12 Thread Intel CPU and did not provide any information on what settings they used, i can match or beat Nvidia's i7 3960K + 780TI score with a 4 year old AMD Phenom II CPU and still be GPU bound if i use Mantle.

I think you need to read what you quote again 🙂

(Edit. I prefer to be frank about it. I dont think anyone expect the gains pcper shows. What i have trouble understanding is why people post that pr garbage knowing that.)

 

[Keysplayr]

Did you even read what i said?

How about addressing that instead of perpetuating the Status Quo

I enjoy BF4 in Mantle a hell of a lot more than DX.

Yes, I read what you said. :: shrugs ::

 

[HWfreak]

From the article:
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/NVIDIA-Talks-DX12-DX11-Efficiency-Improvements
"This graphic, provided by NVIDIA of course, shows 9 specific Direct3D 11 functions. The metric of efficiency in this case is rated by the speed increase between the AMD R9 290X in red and the three different progressive driver versions in green on a GTX 780 Ti. The Draw, SetIndexBuffer and SetVertexBuffers functions have gone through several hundred percent performance improvements since just the R331 driver stack to an as-yet-unreleased driver due out in the next couple of weeks."

Then i look forward to Nvidia beating AMD by ~800% in BF4 :hmm:

Tho i predict nothing will change.

 

[Keysplayr]

Same, it runs incredibly well under Mantle. You don't need a single graph or bench to know either, it just runs so nicely. But there are people who are willing to wait 2 years to maybe get a similar experience, I really don't understand it.


Enjoying might be the wrong word, more like tolerating. As soon as you run Mantle you quickly realize, oh....DX is not so good.

LMAO.. tolerating. Ok ATM. Show me any indication you were tolerating DX all these years before Mantle was announced, and I'll send you a cookie.

 

[Carfax83]

And DirectX 12 isn't done yet- all that they have done so far, as far as I can tell, is to iron out the API (i.e. copy the Mantle API and rename a few things), and get a basic driver implementation for one NVidia GPU which works well enough for a single demo.

You keep repeating the same false narrative, about copying Mantle and what not. According to the PCper article:

For the past year, NVIDIA has been working closely with the DirectX team to deliver a working design and implementation of DX12 at GDC.” This would indicate that while general ideas about what would be in the next version of DX, the specific timeline to build and prepare it started last spring.

So the actual software engineering of DX12 began early last year, BEFORE Mantle was announced. Now one could say that Microsoft knew about AMD's design for Mantle, but then the reverse would be true as well, that AMD knew about Microsoft's plans for DirectX 12.

 

[HWfreak]

LMAO.. tolerating. Ok ATM. Show me any indication you were tolerating DX all these years before Mantle was announced, and I'll send you a cookie.

I don't know about AnandThenMan but i'm never using DX ever again where Mantle is available. by comparison its horrible.

 

[NTMBK]

You keep repeating the same false narrative, about copying Mantle and what not. According to the PCper article:

So the actual software engineering of DX12 began early last year, BEFORE Mantle was announced. Now one could say that Microsoft knew about AMD's design for Mantle, but then the reverse would be true as well, that AMD knew about Microsoft's plans for DirectX 12.

Did you miss the phrase "this would indicate"? That is PCper's interpretation of a deliberately vague quote from NVidia, not actual confirmation that one literal year elapsed between the start of development work and that first demo.

 

[Carfax83]

I am a bit skeptical since the numbers are so impressive, and why did it take this long to to get here? But hey, if NVidia can achieve this, then I will expect AMD to take up the challenge.
What is your expectation of real world improvements?

One of the things I like about NVidia is that they are constantly tweaking and refining their drivers. The incoming DX11 super driver may just be the culmination after months (or years) of driver refinements for DX11, or it could be the result of a specific focus on DX11 efficiency brought about by pressure from Mantle..

I'm betting it's more the latter, but NVidia definitely are constantly refining their drivers for maximum performance and efficiency..

As for my real world expectations, I think games or benchmarks that are predominantly CPU limited will get the largest increases. Star Swarm is a great candidate, as that is heavily CPU bound. BF4 should pick up some frames as well..

 

[AnandThenMan]

It's a dangerous strategy but it's Nvidia's only play. They don't have the luxury of controlling this console generation so they have to hook their wagon to Microsoft and D3D (a bit ironic really).

 

[NTMBK]

It's a dangerous strategy but it's Nvidia's only play. They don't have the luxury of controlling this console generation so they have to hook their wagon to Microsoft and D3D (a bit ironic really).

Don't forget about the disruption factor. If

a) SteamOS takes off
b) an Android giant like Amazon launches a serious Android console

then NVidia has new opportunities to put a gaming box under your TV. They're clearly streets ahead of AMD in the Android space, though they are instead up against the likes of Qualcomm, and their Linux drivers are generally much better than AMD.

Not saying that either of these will happen, of course, but bear them in mind.

 

[ASM-coder]

BF4 should pick up some frames as well..

Some frames, from a super driver? But, I would take it, especially for free.
Although, "some frames from Mantle, at no cost" was picked apart fairly harshly.
Nothing is for free, only for GCN cards, and only a few frames is not worth the effort.
But again, this is good for NVidia card owners, and maybe those with weaker CPU's will benefit most.

 

[Keysplayr]

I don't know about AnandThenMan but i'm never using DX ever again where Mantle is available. by comparison its horrible.

Don't speak in absolutes because it backs you into a corner when things change. And they change often.

 

[wand3r3r]

One of the things I like about NVidia is that they are constantly tweaking and refining their drivers. The incoming DX11 super driver may just be the culmination after months (or years) of driver refinements for DX11, or it could be the result of a specific focus on DX11 efficiency brought about by pressure from Mantle..

I'm betting it's more the latter, but NVidia definitely are constantly refining their drivers for maximum performance and efficiency..

As for my real world expectations, I think games or benchmarks that are predominantly CPU limited will get the largest increases. Star Swarm is a great candidate, as that is heavily CPU bound. BF4 should pick up some frames as well..

Are you implying they are the only ones? This just comes across as a premature gushing ad and we haven't even seen a result. Did you fail to notice the driver wars about a year or was it already 2 years ago where they were getting massive gains, particularly for the 79xx series. There were some drivers with double digit gains.