AMD @ GDC: Partnership with MS next-generation graphics.

[HWfreak]

Nitrous & Mantle: Combining Efficient Engine Design with a Modern API (Presented by AMD)

In this session AMDs Dave Oldcorn, Frostbite technical Director Johan Andersson and Oxides Dan Baker will look at how new Direct3D advancements enhance efficiency and enable fully-threaded building of command buffers. They will demonstrate how AMD is using its recent experience in efficient graphics API design and its partnership with Microsoft to provide developers with the infrastructure to render next-generation graphics workloads at full performance. This presentation also discusses the best ways to exploit AMD hardware under heavy load and will invite developers to influence driver and hardware development.

It looks like AMD with thier recent Low Level API experience are going to help Microsoft Develop their next API, a Mantle like DX12?

http://schedule.gdconf.com/session-id/828412

This is MS @ GDC about DX12 http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/05/microsoft-teases-directx-12-reveal-for-gdc-rumors-pit-it-agains/

 

[thilanliyan]

So Mantle will be dead once DX12 comes out? I guess it's good to get the ball rolling, assuming there are tangible benefits to using Mantle.

 

[bystander36]

Mantle isn't low level, but rather it is lower level. And what you quoted makes it sound like they are working on fixing DX multithreading, not making DX lower level, though that is one small quote.

I do believe multithreading is the most important improvement DX needs, as it will allow for CPU's to improve like GPU's have, simply by adding more cores to CPU's.

 

[Erenhardt]

Wait, what?
Do I understand this correctly? AMD is going to co-develop next DX?
That may give them huge advantage when optimizing their hardware for future dx functions.
How long is GPU developing cycle? 3, 4 years to get finished product to the market? They could make dx play to their architecture's strengths.

Somehow I was more OK with their niche API than industry-wide one.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36134168&postcount=13

I had a feeling that AMD would be involved.

 

[Despoiler]

My prediction is that MS will outright buy or license parts of Mantle from AMD for large stacks of cash and then rename it DX12.

 

[Genx87]

Wait, what?
Do I understand this correctly? AMD is going to co-develop next DX?
That may give them huge advantage when optimizing their hardware for future dx functions.
How long is GPU developing cycle? 3, 4 years to get finished product to the market? They could make dx play to their architecture's strengths.

Somehow I was more OK with their niche API than industry-wide one.

afaik the hardware manufacturers have always worked with Microsoft on DX development.

 

[HWfreak]

My prediction is that MS will outright buy or license parts of Mantle from AMD for large stacks of cash and then rename it DX12.

I have a similar prediction, i just so happens that all 3 Mantle proprietors are partnering up with Microsoft to develop 'More efficient GFX infrastructure' ?

Why would MS spend $100m's and a couple of years developing a new API to compete with Mantle, and why would AMD help them do that?

mhm...

 

[Red Hawk]

Wait, what?
Do I understand this correctly? AMD is going to co-develop next DX?
That may give them huge advantage when optimizing their hardware for future dx functions.
How long is GPU developing cycle? 3, 4 years to get finished product to the market? They could make dx play to their architecture's strengths.

Somehow I was more OK with their niche API than industry-wide one.

I'm sure Nvidia will be just as involved as AMD. Both AMD and Nvidia were closely involved in the development of DX11, IIRC.

 

[smackababy]

Wait, what?
Do I understand this correctly? AMD is going to co-develop next DX?
That may give them huge advantage when optimizing their hardware for future dx functions.
How long is GPU developing cycle? 3, 4 years to get finished product to the market? They could make dx play to their architecture's strengths.

Somehow I was more OK with their niche API than industry-wide one.

It might sound weird that AMD would be helping make a competing API, but there is no negative outcome from helping. They get their name plastered all over everything MS is doing to promote this. The alternative would be nVidia (their direct competitor) getting their name plastered all over with no mention of AMD. It is a marketing move, pure and simple. And a good one.

 

[Despoiler]

I have a similar prediction, i just so happens that all 3 Mantle proprietors are partnering up with Microsoft to develop 'More efficient GFX infrastructure' ?

Why would MS spend $100m's and a couple of years developing a new API to compete with Mantle, and why would AMD help them do that?

mhm...

Think about it. Mantle is AMD's trojan horse. It's not about owning control of the API, it's about forcing more efficient APIs. AMD cannot compete with Intel right now in terms of chip design or fabrication. Bulldozer failed hard. The more cores strategy didn't work, but how could it when DX is antiquated in its design? So what do you do when you cannot compete? You change the debate. You change the focus. AMD creates Mantle which greatly reduces the pressure on the CPU. From low end to high end you have improvements. Now their CPUs in gaming look just fine compared to Intel. The need for an Intel chip goes away because pretty much any chip is more then fine. Not only that, your more cores architecture actually can make up ground vs a higher IPC lower core count Intel chip. Mantle is genius on many levels.

 

[96Firebird]

I'm sure Nvidia will be just as involved as AMD. Both AMD and Nvidia were closely involved in the development of DX11, IIRC.

Yeah I don't see how this is news. Both companies work with MS when it comes to the changes and enhancements to DX. Do people think MS just comes up with random changes and expect Nvidia and AMD to comply without input?

 

[3DVagabond]

AMD said they had communicated with Microsoft prior to going ahead with Mantle. This didn't just happen overnight.

As far as those who see no financial reason for this, or want to paint it as some kind of negative for AMD's Mantle, you are very short sighted. The PC market is shrinking. Sometimes you need to feed an industry or all you'll have left is a dead carcass to pick clean. AMD does this often! The sooner people realize this the easier it will be to see AMD's angle on things. AMD would gladly hand Mantle to the industry if it helps with it's adoption and moves the PC gaming industry forward. It's an investment.

 

[HWfreak]

Think about it. Mantle is AMD's trojan horse. It's not about owning control of the API, it's about forcing more efficient APIs. AMD cannot compete with Intel right now in terms of chip design or fabrication. Bulldozer failed hard. The more cores strategy didn't work, but how could it when DX is antiquated in its design? So what do you when you cannot compete? You change the debate. You change the focus. AMD creates Mantle which greatly reduces the pressure on the CPU. From low end to high end you have improvements. Now their CPUs in gaming look just fine compared to Intel. The need for an Intel chip goes away because pretty much any chip is more then fine. Not only that, your more cores architecture actually can make up ground vs a higher IPC lower core count Intel chip. Mantle is genius on many levels.

You make some very good points.

AMD said they had communicated with Microsoft prior to going ahead with Mantle. This didn't just happen overnight.

As far as those who see no financial reason for this, or want to paint it as some kind of negative for AMD's Mantle, you are very short sighted. The PC market is shrinking. Sometimes you need to feed an industry or all you'll have left is a dead carcass to pick clean. AMD does this often! The sooner people realize this the easier it will be to see AMD's angle on things. AMD would gladly hand Mantle to the industry if it helps with it's adoption and moves the PC gaming industry forward. It's an investment.

+1 to that.

 

[ocre]

Yeah I don't see how this is news. Both companies work with MS when it comes to the changes and enhancements to DX. Do people think MS just comes up with random changes and expect Nvidia and AMD to comply without input?

absolutely.

We all know M$ is working on furthering DX.....
We all should know that AMD and Nvidia are always a part of that.

 

[Red Hawk]

AMD said they had communicated with Microsoft prior to going ahead with Mantle. This didn't just happen overnight.

As far as those who see no financial reason for this, or want to paint it as some kind of negative for AMD's Mantle, you are very short sighted. The PC market is shrinking. Sometimes you need to feed an industry or all you'll have left is a dead carcass to pick clean. AMD does this often! The sooner people realize this the easier it will be to see AMD's angle on things. AMD would gladly hand Mantle to the industry if it helps with it's adoption and moves the PC gaming industry forward. It's an investment.

How is the PC market shrinking? With stuff like League of Legends, Minecraft (which started on PC), etc., the PC market is as strong as ever when it comes to gaming. The overall PC userbase may be shrinking somewhat as people move to tablets, but those people likely wouldn't be interested in core PC gaming to begin with.

 

[HWfreak]

How is the PC market shrinking? With stuff like League of Legends, Minecraft (which started on PC), etc., the PC market is as strong as ever when it comes to gaming. The overall PC userbase may be shrinking somewhat as people move to tablets, but those people likely wouldn't be interested in core PC gaming to begin with.

News Flash, the PC industry is shrinking. Even Intel are struggling to keep up sales of their CPU's.

Its not what it once was, less people are spending large amounts of money on hardware to play games, and who can blame them when all they read in places like this is that the only option they have is to buy a Motherboard and CPU which alone costs as much as a PS4, and then the rest on top of that...

And it will only get worse unless PC Gaming can be more affordable.

 

[3DVagabond]

To those who are saying that nVidia is involved, please link a source?

 

[f1sherman]

To those who are saying that nVidia is involved, please link a source?

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/p/directx12.aspx

also, it's in OP, 2nd link

 

[MangoX]

News Flash, the PC industry is shrinking. Even Intel are struggling to keep up sales of their CPU's.

Its not what it once was, less people are spending large amounts of money on hardware to play games, and who can blame them when all they read in places like this is that the only option they have is to buy a Motherboard and CPU which alone costs as much as a PS4, and then the rest on top of that...

And it will only get worse unless PC Gaming can be more affordable.

Umm what? PCs are cheaper than they've ever been. The reason why sales are down is because we're at the good enough era as far as performance is concerned. I'm still running my 2500k and see no need to upgrade. Tablets are soaring because they're the hottest new thing. I have bought 4 tablets in the last 3 years, and right now I'm really happy with the performance of my N7 2013. We are Soon approaching good enough performance and I would not be surprised to see sales stagnate.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle got nothing to do with DX12. Not sure why people try to convience themselves otherwise. DX12 is not vendor specific.

 

[moonbogg]

My prediction is that MS will outright buy or license parts of Mantle from AMD for large stacks of cash and then rename it DX12.

I like this. AMD adds pressure, MS throws money at it and we all win. Nice!

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Mantle got nothing to do with DX12. Not sure why people try to convience themselves otherwise. DX12 is not vendor specific.

The only reason mantle is vendor specific is because its a beta. What's your insider information on dx12 since you seem to already know.

 

[96Firebird]

What's your insider information on dx12 since you seem to already know.

As far as I know, DX has never been vendor specific. He doesn't have to have "insider information" to assume DX12 is not vendor specific.

You ask for proof of the most ridiculous things...

 

[VulgarDisplay]

As far as I know, DX has never been vendor specific. He doesn't have to have "insider information" to assume DX12 is not vendor specific.

You ask for proof of the most ridiculous things...

The point was that he has no proof that mantle will stay vendor specific, and he knows nothing about dx12 because nothing has been released yet.