AMD @ GDC: Partnership with MS next-generation graphics.

[Carfax83]

"contain the entirety of information needed to execute a particular workload on the GPU" that is a task going to the GPU. Your new "command lists" are the same thing that is used in mantle, with a different name.
PS: we will have one easy way to know the truth, and that will happen when both SDKs are out. I hope you dont get impressed by seeing the same thing with different names.

If they are the same thing, then why doesn't Mantle have driver threads like DX12?

 

[Carfax83]

That's what I'm said. The KM driver is still exist, but it won't run much server threads, and even the workloads will be very light.

I wasn't talking about the KM driver, I was talking about the D3D driver.. The D3D driver is what takes up most of the CPU runtime in DX11, as you can see from this graph. With DX12, the UM driver seems to take up more CPU time than the D3D driver though..

D3D11 MT is completely broken. It has many problems. For example the command buffers can't be re-used, which makes this solution useless.

Well I don't know about completely broken, but yes, it does have it's issues. If it were completely broken, it wouldn't have been used to great effect in Civ 5..

Regardless though, DX12 seems to completely fix all of the issues with deferred contexts that plagued the DX11 version.

 

[parvadomus]

If they are the same thing, then why doesn't Mantle have driver threads like DX12?

It obviously has, otherwise it would have the same drawbacks of DX11, one thread killing the CPU. Being closer to metal dont translates to no threads, it gets rids of the KM driver, and allows running threads to submit work to the GPU in parallel.

 

[Carfax83]

It obviously has, otherwise it would have the same drawbacks of DX11, one thread killing the CPU. Being closer to metal dont translates to no threads, it gets rids of the KM driver, and allows running threads to submit work to the GPU in parallel.

I was under the impression that Mantle had no driver threads whatsoever:

 

[wand3r3r]

An API is simple in itself.

An Application Programming Interface (API) is a particular set of rules and specifications that a software program can follow to access and make use of the services and resources provided by another particular software program that implements that API. It serves as an interface between different software programs and facilitates their interaction, similar to the way the user interface facilitates interaction between humans and computers

My guess on this is that Mantle has been discussed, demonstrated, and proven to Microsoft (and is very related to consoles which MS understands well obviously), and AMD and MS agree it looks good. They agree to use the concept and possibly change the interface a bit so NV can add their own backend implementation too and it fits for all of them.

Everyone is happy, NV gets the advantages the low level access provides (while pretending to ignore mantle). AMD gets to (very likely) utilize most of their existing code (thus all the mantle work is justified). MS gets to claim and demonstrate how DX12 is much faster and that's why you should upgrade to windows 9 (even if they offer it in other systems after 6 mos).

Obviously DX12 will consist of more than just this particular functionality though. That's my guess on the mantle like low level access.

Fanboys rejoice since their favorite company made great forward thinking decisions. /sarcasm

 

[HWfreak]

From PCper.

Here at GDC, AMD told us they have expanded the number of beta Mantle members dramatically with plenty more applications (dozens) in waiting. Obviously this could put a lot of strain on AMD for Mantle support and maintenance but representatives assure us that the major work of building out documentation and development tools is nearly 100% behind them...

...If stories like this one over at Semiaccurate are true, and that Microsoft's DirectX 12 will be nearly identical to AMD Mantle, then it makes sense that developers serious about new gaming engines can get a leg up on projects by learning Mantle today. Applying that knowledge to the DX12 API upon its release could speed up development and improve implementation efficiency. From what I am hearing from the few developers willing to even mention DX12, Mantle is much further along in its release (late beta) than DX12 is (early alpha).

AMD indeed was talking with and sharing the development of Mantle with Microsoft "every step of the way" and AMD has stated on several occasions that there were two outcomes with Mantle; it either becomes or inspires a new industry standard in game development. Even if DX12 is more or less a carbon copy of Mantle, forcing Nvidia to implement that API style with DX12's release, AMD could potentially have the advantage of gaming performance and support between now and Microsoft's DirectX release. That could be as much as a full calendar year from reports we are getting at GDC.

http://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/GDC-14-CRYENGINE-Support-Mantle-AMD-Gets-Another-Endorsement

 

[parvadomus]

I was under the impression that Mantle had no driver threads whatsoever:

hahaha man, dont believe everything you see. The game code cannot submit work directly to the CPU. It must submit it to the driver, which in this case should be much much thinner than the DX11 one, just like "DX12". The work are tasks, as I said before, your famous "commands" are tasks thrown to the GPU.
Mantle and DX12 run over the exact same paradigm: remove the KM Driver, and use the GPU to process any kind of task.

 

[MeldarthX]

"Originally Posted by Baboonanza
It's interesting to compare these two sources. One is the MSDN post that tells us basically everything we know about the technical details and the other lists Mantle API functions exposed in the Catalyst driver.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/arch...irectx-12.aspx
http://www.geeks3d.com/20140203/amd-...unctions-list/

They certainly seem to me (a C++ programmer with a moderate amount of graphics experience) to be solving the same problems in very similar ways. They even use the same terminology for things like PipelineObjects and MemoryViewDescriptors. That could just be because they are solving the same problem and the terminology is fairly obvious or course.

Either way this argument seems absurd. The idea that Microsoft went off with Nvidia and designed DirectX 12 without any input from AMD is just as ridiculous as the idea that AMD didn't know about DirectX 12 and released Mantle as an intended replacement. Mantle will be around until DirectX 12 is released and then become obsolete, and AMD almost certainly knew that when they released it."

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=26041032&posted=1#post26041032

Pulled from this sub; again proving what I've been talking about.

Remember; this is good for all of us

 

[OCGuy]

Just finally caught
PS4 code translate easy into mantle..........DX12 = mantle; so will translate straight over. Those saying Intel or Nvidia couldn't work on mantle again been proven wrong.

While everyone is speculating here, your conclusion doesn't seem to line up with the facts at hand.

 

[HWfreak]

While everyone is speculating here, your conclusion doesn't seem to line up with the facts at hand.

What he's saying is quite simple. DX12 = developed primarily for XB1, XB1 = AMD GCN architecture.

PS4 = the same AMD GCN architecture.

What you run on your Desktop = AMD GCN architecture.

It's all the same DNA.

 

[sontin]

Xbox One developers have been choosing nVidia hardware to develop the games.
Microsoft has been chosen nVidia to bring DX12 to live.

Hm. But yes, it's all about AMD. D:

 

[Despoiler]

"Originally Posted by Baboonanza
It's interesting to compare these two sources. One is the MSDN post that tells us basically everything we know about the technical details and the other lists Mantle API functions exposed in the Catalyst driver.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/arch...irectx-12.aspx
http://www.geeks3d.com/20140203/amd-...unctions-list/

They certainly seem to me (a C++ programmer with a moderate amount of graphics experience) to be solving the same problems in very similar ways. They even use the same terminology for things like PipelineObjects and MemoryViewDescriptors. That could just be because they are solving the same problem and the terminology is fairly obvious or course.

Either way this argument seems absurd. The idea that Microsoft went off with Nvidia and designed DirectX 12 without any input from AMD is just as ridiculous as the idea that AMD didn't know about DirectX 12 and released Mantle as an intended replacement. Mantle will be around until DirectX 12 is released and then become obsolete, and AMD almost certainly knew that when they released it."

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=26041032&posted=1#post26041032

Pulled from this sub; again proving what I've been talking about.

Remember; this is good for all of us

Also, command lists in DX12 = command queues in Mantle. Same function, different names.

Tech Report has a nice article on how Mantle works. Read the MDSN link above and compare it with below. DX12 and Mantle are the same thing. The terminology might not be the same, but the execution models are exactly the same as near as I can tell. If anyone can find an actual difference let's call it out. I'm just not finding it.

http://techreport.com/review/25683/delving-deeper-into-amd-mantle-api/2

 

[yulgrhet]

The Mantle name is probably dead. AMD will hopefully support DirectX 12, and transition their Mantle games to DirectX 12. AMD liked to talk about supporting other vendors with Mantle, and they got their wish- they just need to accept the DirectX name.

(Of course, "transition" may consist of find-and-replace "Mantle" with "DirectX", but that's another matter.)

The only casualty in this is the possibility of Mantle on Linux. Which was, of course, Microsoft's goal.

Many developers want break Microsoft stranglehold API and Windows focus. Why big developers behind Mantle, see future open API extensible all modern hardwares and platforms, give developers control. Why Johann say Frostbite research focus to being Mantle and PS4.

Byzantine API Tango Microsoft, AMD, Nvidia, Intel.

 

[HWfreak]

Xbox One developers have been choosing nVidia hardware to develop the games.
Microsoft has been chosen nVidia to bring DX12 to live.

Hm. But yes, it's all about AMD. D:

Nvidia Running Forza on their GPU was just a bit of a side swipe at AMD.

IMO it was done purely so they could have that little concession and make something of it.

Its a console only game, it will never actually see Kepler Hardware

AMD alluded to the tension between MS, Game Developers and Hardware Developers right on stage.

MS want to push their Console ECO System, they don't want Desktop Gaming to get any better than it already is.
Mantle is a huge Fly in their soup.
Which is why no one should kid themselves that in 2 years DX12 WILL be all that, it might be, but its far from a given when its creators motives are for the XB1, not the PC.

 

[digitaldurandal]

News Flash, the PC industry is shrinking. Even Intel are struggling to keep up sales of their CPU's.

Its not what it once was, less people are spending large amounts of money on hardware to play games, and who can blame them when all they read in places like this is that the only option they have is to buy a Motherboard and CPU which alone costs as much as a PS4, and then the rest on top of that...

And it will only get worse unless PC Gaming can be more affordable.

News Flash, PC gaming has already gotten cheaper. AMD has introduced a number of APU's that run most games at 720p with decent options. You will find many of the PS4 titles only run 720p as well. You can easily spend 400 or less and put together a PC quite capable of gaming and more.

The market shrink is not necessarily what it looks like at first glance, you have to take into account quite a few things.

1) Many people who previously did not have a modern pc have already bought one, so the number of people who can be targeted as new customers has shrunk

2) Tablets, phablets, super phones, streaming boxes, and wearable technology will eat into the PC space somewhat but were not the target of discreet GPU's

3) As Tablets etc remove from the PC market they will mostly remove from the low end of the market, the new low end PC market is quickly becoming capable of gaming with APU's and no discreet GPU necessary. This cuts into GPU numbers a bit.

If steambox takes off it may help to reinvigorate mid and high end gpu sales.

Cheers!

 

[sontin]

Nvidia Running Forza on their GPU was just a bit of a side swipe at AMD.

Right, because MS cares about such stuff.

Its a console only game, it will never actually see Kepler Hardware

That wasn't the intention.

MS want to push their Console ECO System, they don't want Desktop Gaming to get any better than it already is.
Mantle is a huge Fly in their soup.
Which is why no one should kid themselves that in 2 years DX12 WILL be all that, it might be, but its far from a given when its creators motives are for the XB1, not the PC.

Really, what? Microsoft invented DX12 so they can allow porting of games between different plattforms easily. They dont need DX12 on the Xbox One. The One is already using a "low level" API.

 

[HWfreak]

Right, because MS cares about such stuff.

That wasn't the intention.

Really, what? Microsoft invented DX12 so they can allow porting of games between different plattforms easily. They dont need DX12 on the Xbox One. The One is already using a "low level" API.

You need to go back and do some more reading, DX12 is for the XB1 ported to PC.

How good it will end up being on the PC remains to be seen, so far not a single game developers has endorsed DX12.
Yet Mantle is still finding developer endorsement while all the DX12 noise is going on. what does that say?

PC Gaming has not been Microsofts goal since the XBox 360, thats why there has been little development on DirectX since then, bar a few token features.
They want you to dump the PC, buy an xBox and pay them a Monthly subscription to play games online.

That is still their goal, all this DX12 quite possibly is to detract from Mantle, its to get Developers to ignore it.
So far they ain't buying it. Another hyped token PC DX update.

 

[AnandThenMan]

There are two elephants in the room. One, DX12 will be Win9+ only, Mantle is Win7/8/9. Two, Mantle can (and hopefully will) be brought over to Linux, DX12 obviously never. So those that say Mantle will be obsolete when DX12 hits are not seeing the overall picture.

 

[sontin]

And why would anybody produce a game with Mantle when they can use OpenGL?
If they dont need platforms outside of Windows - DX12
If they want to sell the game on more plattforms - OpenGL

If they want to spend additional money for the same market - DX12/OpenGL + Mantle.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

And why would anybody produce a game with Mantle when they can use OpenGL?
If they dont need platforms outside of Windows - DX12
If they want to sell the game on more plattforms - OpenGL

If they want to spend additional money for the same market - DX12/OpenGL + Mantle.

Why does anyone use Direct X when they can use Open GL?

 

[HWfreak]

And why would anybody produce a game with Mantle when they can use OpenGL?
If they dont need platforms outside of Windows - DX12
If they want to sell the game on more plattforms - OpenGL

If they want to spend additional money for the same market - DX12/OpenGL + Mantle.

The question is why wouldn't they?

Why do so many developers endorse Mantle? especially with all the DX12 noise going on.

 

[NTMBK]

Xbox One developers have been choosing nVidia hardware to develop the games.
Microsoft has been chosen nVidia to bring DX12 to live.

Hm. But yes, it's all about AMD. D:

Microsoft chose NVidia because they already knew DirectX 12 would work fine on AMD, because it's basically a copy-paste of Mantle. They didn't need to test/demonstrate performance of the API on the platform it was originally designed for...

 

[krumme]

There are two elephants in the room. One, DX12 will be Win9+ only, Mantle is Win7/8/9. Two, Mantle can (and hopefully will) be brought over to Linux, DX12 obviously never. So those that say Mantle will be obsolete when DX12 hits are not seeing the overall picture.

Hmm
Something must explain why there is fast growing dev support for mantle and MS gets a meager quote from Tom Sweeney whos ue3 engine is already tuned for mantle in thief. Crazy???

Perhaps its a combination of the quoted and that dx12 is just extremely similar to mantle?

Dont know. What can we expect from win9 that makes users upgrade to it?

Its a damn difficult possition for ms. What exactly is their interest in forcing new api in general? Why not let others do the work?

And what would ms incentive be to use dx12 on win7?

 

[HWfreak]

Hmm
Something must explain why there is fast growing dev support for mantle and MS gets a meager quote from Tom Sweeney whos ue3 engine is already tuned for mantle in thief. Crazy???

Perhaps its a combination of the quoted and that dx12 is just extremely similar to mantle?

Dont know. What can we expect from win9 that makes users upgrade to it?

Its a damn difficult possition for ms. What exactly is their interest in forcing new api in general? Why not let others do the work?

And what would ms incentive be to use dx12 on win7?

NV wanting to make the point that DX12 does run on their Hardware

On your last point, to try holding on to their monopoly, With what (needs not mentioned to many times) and OGL and' all jumping on the 'better, lower level API' bandwagon MS are loosing control, they have no choice but to react somehow.

 

[yulgrhet]

There are two elephants in the room. One, DX12 will be Win9+ only, Mantle is Win7/8/9. Two, Mantle can (and hopefully will) be brought over to Linux, DX12 obviously never. So those that say Mantle will be obsolete when DX12 hits are not seeing the overall picture.

More elephants:

Three - Mantle to becoming open hardware platform extensible API free developers Microsoft shackles.

Four - Mantle giving much more controls to developers free developers Microsoft shackles.

Remembers Johan saying Mantle 'perfect fit' Steam OS.