All Florida Counties that used the butterly ballot should re-vote

[Tripleshot]

vi_edit

If this is the case, then it would be the same thing as me failing a Drivers license test because the DMV messed up the answer key. I should be allowed to re-do my test.

Thats a good analogy. That ballot is to easy to make a mistake on.


Republicans are sure spinning on this one.(In the media) They do not want this to be opened up under light of law. This voting irregularity needs to be addressed to vindicate GW and not allow the Dems to be martyres. The Reps should back off and let the courts handle it.

 

[BoberFett]

<< The Reps should back off and let the courts handle it. >>

Good idea. In fact why don't we scrap this crazy voting idea all together and just let our masters... err the judiciary decide who'll be the next president.

 

[KingHam]

Actually it's a rather poor analogy. When I was in school I always checked my Scantron before I turned it in. Thus I could catch mistakes that I had made. It didn't take much time and I made sure I never got burned. Many of my class mates just turned their tests in and got burned.

My point? As much as some may not like it; it's the people's own fault for not double checking. Yesterday Tripleshot told of how when double checking he came across a faulty machine and had it removed. It's not a valid reason to issue a re-vote.

KingHam

[edit]speaking of double checking [/edit]

 

[vi edit]

Kingham, but if it was a mechanical/punching error like I have interpreted it, then it isn't the voter's error.

If a teacher mismarked the answer key, and marked your right answer wrong because of it, I'd put money on it that you'd raise holy hell and get the point back.

If I am interpreting this the correct way, then that is how it happened. But, since hardly none of us were actually in the booths, filling out the ballots ourselves, we really don't know.

I'm just going by how I read the CNN and MSNBC articles, and what I saw on the TV.

 

[KingHam]

Since when is the error in the machine counting the ballots? If the machine was marking votes for Gore as votes for Buchannon I think that he would have more than 3400 votes.

KingHam

[edit] I think I might of been too vague. If the mistake occured inside of the voting booth then it is the fault of the voter. Bar none. If, OTOH, was made by the machine tallying voted then we will see a change in the recount.

p.s. Last I heard they were 25% of the way through the recount and Gore has picked up 33 votes! [/edit]

 

[Russ]

I've seen every copy of that ballot available. Fact is, anyone who punched the wrong hole wasn't paying attention. If we start using voter inattentiveness as a criteria for overturning elections, we'd be &quot;re-voting&quot; every county in the country, every year.

Quit grasping at straws.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

I just caught the end of some interview with a person (voting official? not sure) from Florida and he said the ballot is going to be disputed in court tomorrow. ???

 

[KingHam]

Amen Brother Russ.

KingHam

 

[BlkDragon6]

Russ,

You weren't one of the actual Buchanan voters in Palm Beach County were you? I knew it.

 

[Tripleshot]

KingHam

I'm a 50 year old tech savvy voter who was quite intersted in seeing that my vote counted. I had trouble and had it corrected.

My 80 year old frail as hell Father in law would have punched in the same manner,even maybe realizing it didn't look right, and would continue on voting with just the nagging notion that maybe an un intended vote got through.

Multiply that by all those republicans and democrats in Florida that had the same confusion and tell me with a straight face that thats tough sh!t for them,knowing as we know now that an in ordinate amount of votes went to Buchanan AND the voters brought that to the attention of voter regulators.

They have a right to insure that there vote counts,not an error in favor of someone they had no intention of voting for.

We as citezens have the right to expect that our vote will be counted and our voices heard.

1st ammendment rights friend. Do you want to pick and choose who gets them and who doesn't?

 

[Asubit]

Couple of things.

First of all I saw one of these 'flawed' ballots up close.

I suggest everyone do the same..

Each candidates box has an arrow pointing to the correct hole to punch. Buchanan's box is located to the right of Bush's and Gore's boxes. As a result, buchanan's hole to punch is positioned dead even between Bush's and Gore's squares.

And of course the arrows point to the right hole that needs to be punched...

So quite frankly you have to be a complete retard to not know what was going on. There was just as likely a chance for someone to accidentally vote for buchanan when they wanted Bush.

AND, one of Buchanan's cousins lives in that county, and helped buchanan get 8100 votes in the 96 primaries. So that 3000 for buchanan is not odd, and should not result in a revote.

The constitution doesn't speak to a revote to my knowledge...if a revote were to take place I believe the entire state would have to go at it.

Highly unlikely considering after the overseas ballots pull through those 3000 that buchanan received wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

Anyway, my candidate won..yehaw.

 

[vi edit]

Grasping at straws, hardly.

As I said earlier I'm a Browne supporter. I'm just expressing how I interpreted the problems with the voting process.

 

[Double Trouble]

If you can't win the election the right way, go to court, sue, cheat, do whatever, there's gotta be a way to get it....... Yep, sounds like the new 'blame game' in action. And we wonder why we have such a litigious society.....

They can whine, bitch and moan about it all the way, I've seen that ballot, and anyone that screwed up their vote simply didn't pay enough attention, and that's their fault, not mine, and not anyone else's.

 

[BlkDragon6]

Asubit,

Your canidate &quot;won&quot; and ya let your rationality out the window. Give me a break. If you add in all the factors of Palm Beach County, there is a definite hint of something not right. Try doing a little role exchange and pretend you support Gore. Now try saying with a straight face that those factors don't matter.

 

[Eug]

<< For older people, a mistake is very easy to make. Women who have spatial problems could easily make the mistake. >>

I hope you don't mean you think that women are worse at the physical act of voting.

Anyways, it's not a great ballot but it ain't the worst either. A careful person should have voted properly, regardless of age. Things can always be improved, but the voter should take some responsibility for his/her own mistakes.

I remember back in a recent election up here in Canada when John Turner was running for election. Another party snuck in another candidate with the same name but a different middle initial. Several supporters voted for the wrong guy. People didn't complain, because it was clearly marked on the ballot which party the person belonged to. People just kicked themselves for being idiots instead of blaming everyone else.

And before you guys accuse me of being a Bush supporter, I can't even vote in the US, because I don't live there. And, even if I could I would probably never vote for someone like Bush, for various reasons.

 

[Format C:]

Two points on this that you guys seem to be overlooking. Of course I'd wager that Chess9 probably HASN'T overlooked them but rather chooses to ignore them.

Point 1. You're claiming that the mistakes were made as a result of the ballot &quot;not lining up&quot; in some sort of machine or another and the holes being punched were off by one space or some such which meant that voters thought they were punching the hole for Gore and actually punched the hole for Buchannon. Okay, I'll go along with your argument on that. I suppose that that is possible. Now, since I'm acknowledging that possibility then in return you must also acknowledge the possibility that if indeed that were the case and the ballot *could* be mis-aligned in this machine then its also possible that some of the votes that were intended for Bush were actually cast for noone due to this same mis-alignment. Is that fair? Unless you'd like to take the position, and try to defend it, that the holes were misaligned in the machine ONLY for those intending to vote for Gore then you must also submit to this possibility as well.

Point 2. You're claiming that many people are stating that this happened to them and that they had actually intended to vote for Gore but voted for Buchannon instead. I think I've read and heard enough to understand that this is indeed the claim. Am I wrong? If indeed I am correct in assuming that this is what is being claimed (and I know I am), then I have one blaringly obvious question for those making this claim and for those of you making such noise about it. HOW DO THEY KNOW? If they do indeed KNOW that their ballot was marked wrongly then there is only one way for them to do so and that is that they MUST have known it before they turned it in to be counted. Surely none of you supporting this claim expect me or any other reasonable person to believe that these voters didn't know until AFTER there ballot was submitted that they had punched the wrong hole do you? Explain to me in detail how that would be possible and I might even support your position. I don't believe the counting machine or whatever is employed in submission of a completed ballot gives the ballot back to the voter after its been officially counted does it? I don't think it does, but I'm open to proof to the contrary. Otherwise I can only assume that since a voter had no way of realizing they had marked the wrong hole AFTER submission of the ballot then the only other possibility is that the voter knew they had marked the wrong hole BEFORE the ballot was submitted. If the voter knew that they had marked the wrong hole before submitting the ballot but submitted it anyway instead of asking for a new ballot, then my position on that is simply one word. TOUGH! I don't care if the vote would have been for Gore, Bush, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, if the voter knew it was wrong and submitted it anyway then there is no one or nothing to blame other than the voter's own enormous stupidity, and I don't think they throw out elections based on that.

At this point, I'm tending to agree with those who are claiming that *some* people will do anything to get what they want because they can't stand to lose.

 

[Mill]

<< Asubit,

Your canidate &quot;won&quot; and ya let your rationality out the window. Give me a break. If you add in all the factors of Palm Beach County, there is a definite hint of something not right. Try doing a little role exchange and pretend you support Gore. Now try saying with a straight face that those factors don't matter. >>



Actually he is correct. Due to the relative, he normally poles high in PB county compared to other democrat strongholds. How did Gore lose this Campaign? A few old ladies? I think not. Gore did stupid thing after stupid thing. Bush did some stupid things too. Heck, they even leaked Bush's arrest. Does it matter? No. Bush will win and Gore will lose. It is going to be hard to make up 2000 votes. Count in the military votes(they have a good history of going Rep.) and you have a win. Also don't forget that even if the ballot was messed up, more than likely nothing can be done. Ballots in all states have a history of being messed up or incorrect. Gore will not lose because of PB county. He will lose because of his liberal ideas.

 

[goog40]

They said in the news Gore's people have contacted the most powerful(or however you want to call it) law firm in Florida.

 

[JellyBaby]

Format C:,

You sound like Matlock on steroids but I believe your premise is essentially correct. If I walk into a voting booth and there is question about the format, content or process...and I find myself confused...I can leave the booth without completing the process, go find a volunteer or official to get me some clarification.

If I walk into that voting booth and finalize my vote, it's a done deal. That's it. End of story.

You can recount the votes already cast...take up to Dec. 31st to do so...if the result changes the EC determination so be it. But any move to put a re-vote into motion simply throws out our election results. We may as well declare ourselves a third-world nation where anything goes.

 

[BlkDragon6]

Ya know, there is going to be no convincing in this argument, the lines are clearly drawn and we're just gonna have to wait to see what the courts say. Nuff said for now.

 

[JellyBaby]

BlkDragon6,

Ah but what if there's no &quot;controlling legal authority&quot;?

 

[Format C:]

Sorry JellBaby. Just my nature to be long winded at times, especially when making an argument based on logic, which seems to be in short supply sometimes around here.

 

[Tripleshot]

Format C:

Well I can take a stab at that since I'm not one of those *some* people. I accepted Bush winning last night.Today I want it to be legal. Fair Nuf?

Point1. You miss the point hat the punch card below the ballot is contiguous holes closely lined up and the rows are hidden under the ballot.At the top are two pegs half the size of the wholes in the card for which you slide the punchcard down into and that is to line it up andsecure it in place.I was able to move my card in two different positions,thereby making alignment of the punchole suspect. That wasmy first clue something is wrong.

Point2 When you are in the voting booth,having waited in line for a long time and things are pressing on your mind like picking up the kids at school or stopping at the dry cleaners before they close,you encounter those opsticles as I pointed out in the above or you dont. No matter.You punch the cards for your candidate and reading down from the left page,you see Bush at the top and Gore below him. You punch for Gore in the second hole and then turn the page.You continue gleefully with the rest of your voting and then remove the punchcard,cary it to the box,deposit it and pick up your &quot;I voted Today&quot; sticker and head for your car in the parking lot. When you get to you're car,you overhear a load discusion from other voters gathered at the back of the car next to you,stating there dismay that they may have accidently voted for Buchanan because he was the 2nd hole to punch and Gore was the 3rd hole. You recall punching the 2nd hole.What can you do? nothing. Its in the box and you have left the polling center.

Hence,the voters who did that showed up in protest that you saw on the TV today and now a law suit has been filed to investigate the irregularity.Those voters wabnt thier vote counted,not a vote hoodwinked by the arangement on the ballot.


Best solution next year with the cards? Put all the candidates on one side of the ballot instead of two sides. There was room. Why wasn't that done? It was on my ballot.

(For congresional seats in my state govedrnment it was on both sides of the opened section,hence my taking it to the vote ref and having him check it. He agreed,and removed the machine.)

(By the way,I heard the scenerio in the parking lot at my polling place. That is why I related the scenerio for point 2 for you.)

Allow them the revote. That will legtimize the Bush victory and take the nagging doubts away from the Dems.

Unless of course Gore wins!

 

[DarK SagE]

Millenium: Whats wrong with his liberal ideas? The fact that most americans agree with 'em?

 

[etech]

&quot;We sent out sample ballots to all registered voters, and no one said a word,&quot;

End of story