Question Alder Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

With the release of Alder Lake less than a week away and the "Lakes" thread having turned into a nightmare to navigate I thought it might be a good time to start a discussion thread solely for Alder Lake.

 

[CP5670]

I like ADL but it doesn't seem like a worthwhile upgrade at this point. Like many people I did a big upgrade last year, and my current 10700K runs everything I need perfectly except for a few VR games (which are GPU bottlenecked and need the next generation of cards). I like upgrading stuff, but it has a cost in time commitment (much more than the money), especially a motherboard/platform upgrade where I have to spend time making sure all my old games, driver configuration, etc. still work.

 

[yacoub]

I'd be happy to find some DDR5-6000 or DDR5-6400 from a reputable brand in stock at MSRP anywhere in the States. I've got the 12700K, the hsf for it, and the motherboard is on the way, just need the RAM. :\

 

[ondma]

I like ADL but it doesn't seem like a worthwhile upgrade at this point. Like many people I did a big upgrade last year, and my current 10700K runs everything I need perfectly except for a few VR games (which are GPU bottlenecked and need the next generation of cards). I like upgrading stuff, but it has a cost in time commitment (much more than the money), especially a motherboard/platform upgrade where I have to spend time making sure all my old games, driver configuration, etc. still work.

I have a 8700k. Even 6 core AL would be a significant upgrade: about 40% IPC gain, plus the added efficiency cores. However, even with the 8700k I am gpu limited, and stronger gpus are outrageously expensive. So although it would be cool to have the latest cpu, there is really no point in an upgrade.

 

[insertcarehere]

Forget clock speed. What I want is a 12900k forced to 142 watt max under any load. THEN benchmark it vs a 5950x stock at the same 142 watt, using a very large and intensive benchmark suite. And log running benchmarks, like 20 minutes to an hour (to see heat and hitting the wall on temps, etc) Also, both should have the best memory speed and timings available for their platform (within reason. For example, my 5950x's run 4000@3800/1900 speed. cl16) Not sure the most reasonable fast DDR5 speed is today, but the memory should not be the most expensive, but definitely upper tier. Based on these results, I could better judge Alder lake. Even the above is only 95 watt. for 6/4 cores I would expect efficient to be about 65 watt, maybe a little more.

Heat and power usage are really the only things I have against Alder lake.

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-desktop-cpus-alder-lake-im-test.html?start=2

Reviews & benchmarks w/ 12900k set at 125w PL2, in an alternate world Intel sets a more reasonable power limit and no one complains about Alder Lake being inefficient (note that a 12900k outscores a 5950x at Cinebench R23 w/ 160w power limit).

 

[Markfw]

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-desktop-cpus-alder-lake-im-test.html?start=2

Reviews & benchmarks w/ 12900k set at 125w PL2, in an alternate world Intel sets a more reasonable power limit and no one complains about Alder Lake being inefficient (note that a 12900k outscores a 5950x at Cinebench R23 w/ 160w power limit).

I said 142, not 125, not 160, and I want a full spread of benchmarks, not just cb23, as well as temps and what cooler is used. And yes several people here have complained. But you have you mind made up, so just to let you know, I will ignore all posts from you in the future.

 

[insertcarehere]

I said 142, not 125, not 160, and I want a full spread of benchmarks, not just cb23, as well as temps and what cooler is used. And yes several people here have complained. But you have you mind made up, so just to let you know, I will ignore all posts from you in the future.

Apparently actually reading the review, which does have a full spread of benchmarks (at diff power points), lists temps, and coolers is really, really difficult for some people...

But hey, it's very clear to me who's mind has been made up over all this...

 

[JoeRambo]

I think the main reason there aren't many people on here with one is that most here like to talk and argue about the hardware without actually owning it.

Well said, i feel the same. And the peoplet that are left here seem to be running DC/rendering 24/7 all year.

I appreciate good CPUs when i see them and i vote with my wallet (and "corporate" influence i have). That includes stuff like 3950x, 10900k, 5950x and now 12900K is on the way ( tho 1700 bracket from NZXT will make that road rather long, but i don't mind waiting -> it's not like i am on Celeron now).
I don't mind paying extra to have full 30MB of cache, cause that is important to me, but i will most likely disable E cores.

I feel more "compassion" for people who are stung with GPU prices and being unable to buy something like 12400F or Zen 3600 style build with value motherboard and decent RAM, than i do to those who whine about esotoric power usage problems that are frankly only relevant when unlocked CPUs are run 24/7 full load.

In my eyes, when coupled with proper memory tuning ADL is up to 15% faster in my use cases, and that was enough reason for me to buy it for my "desktop" uses.

P.S. before responding, please consider that i also own 5950X and 3950x doing their job.

 

[Markfw]

Apparently actually reading the review, which does have a full spread of benchmarks (at diff power points), lists temps, and coolers is really, really difficult for some people...

But hey, it's very clear to me who's mind has been made up over all this...

If you don't speak whatever language that is..... And again, nothing about coolers, 142 watt, memory and timings.....

 

[Zucker2k]

What are the actual sales numbers for ADL to date? I'm hoping they are low as that will keep Intel on it's toes. ADL ticked all the right boxes for me and I'm in the process of building a system around the 12700K I got at Microcenter for $400 last Sunday. Mobo should be here in a few days. I'm still rocking the 4770K so it's gonna be a big upgrade for me.

Zen 3 was tempting but for my uses I find the iGPU strong enough and more stable. Rocket Lake didn't do it for me. With ADL I see big cores that are more performant than Zen 3. Most of my compute intensive apps don't use more than 8 cores effectively anyway. I'll probably lock it down to 150W and be done with it.

Do we have an apples-to-apples comparison of Zen 3 to Alder Lake? By that I mean 8 core vs. 8 core at the same frequency doing the same application? I'd love to see that on CB or something at 4GHz. In addition it would be interesting to see them clocked so that the performance is the same and then see the power. But keep the lower performing part at 4GHz and clock the higher IPC one down to match it performance-wise. This way neither get out of the linear part of the shmoo plot.

BY FAR, this!

 

[Asterox]

I think early sales figures could be fairly deceptive, and looking at Micro Center on Thursday (built a 10400 for a client who just needed a workstation for an auto dealership, at $179, it was by far the best price/perf combined with a $119 Asus Prime B560), things are not looking healthy for CPU sales at the moment in general.

They had a fair amount of 12th gen in stock, and mountains of Zen3 accumulating. Motherboards on AM4 were almost comically overstacked. I asked about what was selling and the manager said there's been a fair amount of excitement with Alder but that overall things have been pretty slow outside of the campers for periodic GPU batches. It feels like the pandemic stimulus checks contributed to a solid buying wave in 2020 to early 2021, but it's been declining steadily over time now.

The answer isn't hard to find. The only GPU for less than $1000 in stock was a $199 2GB Quadro P620, basically a card just to give simple video output. With no GPUs in sight, what you're left with are the extreme edge cases of buyers with a couple grand+ for a total new build with scalper level GPUs, and the handful of prosumer guys needing newer faster stuff for their work. The average consumer is boxed out of the market entirely.

It ends up pretty dire looking forward. I've seen all the reviews, looked at all the great stuff. The W11 nonsense, overpriced boards, first wave DDR5 teething, all this shall pass. $200 12400 will be a return to outstanding value in that segment. But in the end, for what? For who? It's mostly tier for tier a bit better than Zen3, but that's been out for ages, and anyone who had money that needed a current gen platform probably already bought for the most part with the stimulus waves. A slightly better product to pair with no GPU at all (at any reasonable price at least) makes no sense to most people.

I don't really see much light in this tunnel my friends, and if all this product starts backing up in distribution and retail, it doesn't really make Raptor, Zen3D, and Zen4 look all that hopeful in turn. Increasingly great products, for a vanishingly small market, shrinking segment.

Well, it is absurd, that in year 2021 only Mindfactory lists various hardware sales numbers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1459725331473084423

 

[CP5670]

I feel more "compassion" for people who are stung with GPU prices and being unable to buy something like 12400F or Zen 3600 style build with value motherboard and decent RAM, than i do to those who whine about esotoric power usage problems that are frankly only relevant when unlocked CPUs are run 24/7 full load.

The CPU power requirements are not that important for gamers because they never actually go that high. The highest I've ever seen on the 10700K is about 130W across 50+ games, and the full 200W is only seen Prime95 with AVX. This is in contrast to video cards, which go right up to the edge of the power limit at all times.

 

[diediealldie]

It all ties together to make for a very strange time in the market, where perhaps the best Intel CPU lineup since Sandy Bridge is not unreasonably met with "well great, but I don't need it". The Zen3 stack was already available, albeit expensive, with poor availability and a complete abdication of entry and value SKUs. We may even be seeing the emergent collapse of the bulk of the consumer DIY market if GPUs continue to exist in a state where they fundamentally no longer exist in any affordable way. It may be disappointing to see zero effort in bringing affordable Zen3 (or thus far, sub $300 Alder, expected 10400 notwithstanding), yet if consumers no longer have interest or budgets that can make use of them, then it doesn't make sense to even offer them. It's more profitable to focus capacity towards datacenter and back-office, cloud/server/AI worlds.

I think 2021 is key. The long heralded "death of the desktop" "end of the home PC" after so many cry wolf moments of the past may finally be upon us. A mass collapse of the OEMs that survive in the DIY space is almost entirely predictable in such a continued state of low volume, unaffordable, unwanted SKUs.

It is strange times indeed. For AMD, 5950x is really great lineup given the fact that it's more like a quasi-Workstation thanks to huge core count and ECC support. This will help 5950x alive for a long time, even if 12900K prices go down substantially. They're just 'different' even if Intel marketing keeps comparing them.

And Intel K and non-K lineups will also survive in OEM lineup thanks to iGPU, which AMD discarded to fight against Intel. AMD's OEM desktop penetration will not happen thanks to dGPU prices.

High-end gamer setups will suffer a lot, like i5 K and Ryzen 5600~5800. Probably people can wait for dGPU price to settle down with i5 with iGPU but current Z board price is simply crazy. Ryzen, nothing can be done.

BTW, who would have thought that Intel will be a savior of a gamer DIY market with Xe discrete graphics launching...

 

[DrMrLordX]

I think the main reason there aren't many people on here with one is that most here like to talk and argue about the hardware without actually owning it.

If you look at Anandtech's forum users over the last 20+ years, you'll probably notice a lot of "budget" buyers that only maintain one or two systems on their own dollar and that only upgrade occasionally. Remember the QX6700? It was widely discussed, but only a few people bought it (opting for its less-expensive Q6600 sibling, among other chips).

Granted the QX6700 had superficial shortages at launch, leading to sites like NewEgg bidding up prices to absurd levels, so that also explains why only a few of us had one. The 12900k is pretty spendy as a platform, though, so there are only so many people with the cash to buy one. Perhaps there will be more Alder Lake-S adopters once B660 launches.

 

[clemsyn]

Forget clock speed. What I want is a 12900k forced to 142 watt max under any load. THEN benchmark it vs a 5950x stock at the same 142 watt, using a very large and intensive benchmark suite. And log running benchmarks, like 20 minutes to an hour (to see heat and hitting the wall on temps, etc) Also, both should have the best memory speed and timings available for their platform (within reason. For example, my 5950x's run 4000@3800/1900 speed. cl16) Not sure the most reasonable fast DDR5 speed is today, but the memory should not be the most expensive, but definitely upper tier. Based on these results, I could better judge Alder lake. Even the above is only 95 watt. for 6/4 cores I would expect efficient to be about 65 watt, maybe a little more.

Heat and power usage are really the only things I have against Alder lake.

This is so interesting, makes me want to try it out

 

[MarkPost]

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...-desktop-cpus-alder-lake-im-test.html?start=2

Reviews & benchmarks w/ 12900k set at 125w PL2, in an alternate world Intel sets a more reasonable power limit and no one complains about Alder Lake being inefficient (note that a 12900k outscores a 5950x at Cinebench R23 w/ 160w power limit).

I dont think so

5950X: 24838 (consuming 120.5W running CB R23 MT Core i9-12900K and Core i5-12600K: Alder Lake Hybrid Desktop CPUs Put to the Test - Hardwareluxx )
12900K 125W PL2: 22831

 

[TheELF]

I dont think so

5950X: 24838 (consuming 120.5W running CB R23 MT Core i9-12900K and Core i5-12600K: Alder Lake Hybrid Desktop CPUs Put to the Test - Hardwareluxx )
12900K 125W PL2: 22831

Scroll a bit lower, the last table is a small table with efficiency in cinebench 23 that only has a few entries, the 12900k locked at 160w scores 25590 which is more than the 5950x although the 5950x does so at lower power, that's what he meant, the 12900k is perfectly fine at 125w and you only have to push it to 160w to beat the 5950x.
Less efficient still but not 241w to 105w as many are left to believe, 160w to 120w doesn't sound all that terrible anymore.

 

[Makaveli]

Yes, 360mm AIO.

I think the main reason there aren't many people on here with one is that most here like to talk and argue about the hardware without actually owning it.

This happends in most forums not just here.

 

[Spicedaddy]

I'd be happy to find some DDR5-6000 or DDR5-6400 from a reputable brand in stock at MSRP anywhere in the States. I've got the 12700K, the hsf for it, and the motherboard is on the way, just need the RAM. :\

I bought a single 8GB stick of Crucial DDR5-4800 so I could boot and test everything. There should be some coming at the end of this month, but it's not gonna be widely available until January from what I've been told.

CPUs and Z690 boards are not too hard to find, but DDR5 is the rare piece.

Stock 12900K with NH-D15S cooler in Cinebench R23: Single = 2008 and Multi = 27282. I'm happy, upgrading from i7-7700.

 

[clemsyn]

It seems that the 12600K has a limit on undervolt. 0.15 to 0.2 offset dont seem to make any change at all. Not sure if it is a limit hardwired into the CPU or motherboard.

 

[Justinus]

Do we have an apples-to-apples comparison of Zen 3 to Alder Lake? By that I mean 8 core vs. 8 core at the same frequency doing the same application? I'd love to see that on CB or something at 4GHz. In addition it would be interesting to see them clocked so that the performance is the same and then see the power. But keep the lower performing part at 4GHz and clock the higher IPC one down to match it performance-wise. This way neither get out of the linear part of the shmoo plot.

I don't have a link handy but I saw where one review site did exactly that, tested cinebench r20(I think) at a fixed frequency to compare relative IPC, with alder lake P cores as the reference 100% performance zen 3 cores were at 99%, so effectively in cinebench the IPC is identical. The performance gains seem to be largely the higher frequencies.

I thought it was computerbase but I can't find the page.

 

[Makaveli]

I don't have a link handy but I saw where one review site did exactly that, tested cinebench r20(I think) at a fixed frequency to compare relative IPC, with alder lake P cores as the reference 100% performance zen 3 cores were at 99%, so effectively in cinebench the IPC is identical. The performance gains seem to be largely the higher frequencies.

This is it here.

Core i9 12900K processor review (Page 7)

Meet Intel's new flagship CPU, the Core i9 12900K. It is based on the Alder Lake architecture and is reviewed here. This time around, Intel was back at the drawing board, creating a completely new ar...

www.guru3d.com

 

[Justinus]

This is it here.
View attachment 52835

Core i9 12900K processor review (Page 7)

Meet Intel's new flagship CPU, the Core i9 12900K. It is based on the Alder Lake architecture and is reviewed here. This time around, Intel was back at the drawing board, creating a completely new ar...

www.guru3d.com

Thank you.

 

[Hulk]

Did a little extrapolation. A 2+8 Alder Lake mobile CPU with the P's at 3.5GHz and the E's at 3.0GHz should score about 10,037 on CB R23.

We'd need some real power data to figure out where that would be power-wise but for comparison my MS Surface Laptop 2 with a Kaby Lake 8250U at 2.5GHz scores 3358 with a package power of 18.2W and total power of 26.4W (from HWinfo).

Drop the P's frequency down to 2.5GHz and the score is 9044. One interesting trend I found is that with the 2+8 configuration in CB R23 a 500MHz increase in frequency corresponds to about 1,000 additional CB R23 points, either for 2 P's or a cluster of 8 E's.

Intel should be able to program some interesting performance into these parts for mobile. I think this is really where Windows 11 and the Thread Director come into play. For mobile the balancing act of P vs. E frequency within a certain budget for a particular workload becomes very important for optimum performance/watt. An app that is highly depending on ST performance might do better with the P's sucking up most of the power while for an efficiently MT app it might be better for the E's to get the lion's share of the power. And then there will be the million cases in between...

For desktop the budget allocation for power is much easier. Set the power budget limit so the P's don't go wildly nonlinear in frequency vs. power. I'm thinking that's probably around 150W for the 12900K.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Linux 5.16's New Cluster Scheduling Is Causing Regression, Further Hurting Alder Lake - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

Things got worse for Linux ADL users who prefer to be on the bleeding edge.

 

[Makaveli]

Good video here