Air Force Academy makes 'God' optional in cadets' oath

[TreVader]

There is no war on God because you can't fight a war against a figment of humanities collective imagination. This "war on God" you refer to is called the dissemination of knowledge aka "Education". It is a fact that the more educated someone becomes, the less likely they are to believe in God. Why? Because smart/knowledgable people have the sense to realize that the world could not have been created in 7 days and that nobody on this planet has ever died and come back to tell us what happens.

Who cares if they don't swear to God in the oath. Is anybody here suggesting that people who believe in God are somehow morally superior to those who don't? A quick look at death row will tell you that the worst people on this planet are far more prone to fervent belief in religion than those of us who know it's just a way for people to cope with the idea that this, their lives, is all they get and it's not gonna get any better. Without religion people would have to confront the issue of the finality of death and wouldn't be able to fantasize about all their desires coming true after death by virtue of "God" or "Jesus".


The only Jesus I know mows my lawn on sunday mornings.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I think you're overthinking.

oh, my bad. I forgot the first rule about religion. Leave your thinking cap at the door.

Here's the difference, you can kill in self defense, or defending your family, or defending your country even. You cannot murder, that's the intent of "Thou shall not kill."

Otherwise, anyone who's even taken a human life, even in self defense, has broken that commandment.

You're underthinking.

 

[IronWing]

But they are justified within their own moral code so that makes them honorable;correct?

According to your philosophy it does.

I say horseshit.

If you can't see how nonsensical that way of thinking is;You are blinded.

In the context of their moral code, yes they would be acting honorably. By my moral code they would be immoral.

 

[irishScott]

If God is required to maintain your moral code, then you are a sociopath.

 

[thraashman]

If God is required to maintain your moral code, then you are a sociopath.

Yeah pretty much this dead on. If you can't follow basic societal concepts of right and wrong without some "god" telling you to, then you have severe issues.

 

[schmuckley]

oh, my bad. I forgot the first rule about religion. Leave your thinking cap at the door.

Here's the difference, you can kill in self defense, or defending your family, or defending your country even. You cannot murder, that's the intent of "Thou shall not kill."

Otherwise, anyone who's even taken a human life, even in self defense, has broken that commandment.

You're underthinking.

That sounds about right

 

[schmuckley]

In the context of their moral code, yes they would be acting honorably. By my moral code they would be immoral.

What if their moral code was the norm?
The only point I'm trying to make is:Without God there are no standards.

Any kind of rhetoric you may have been indoctrinated with in Humanities 101 will
not change that fact.

 

[irishScott]

What if their moral code was the norm?
The only point I'm trying to make is:Without God there are no standards.

Any kind of rhetoric you may have been indoctrinated with in Humanities 101 will
not change that fact.

Uh, what standards? God, despite what you may believe, it not universally believed in; and even those who believe in him/her/it have a host of individual interpretations.

I don't murder because I have no desire to kill another human being, in fact the thought repulses me. I'm not Christian and I don't have to reference the 10 commandments to know that murder is wrong; and I'm hardly unique in this respect.

Everyone has their own moral code. Some choose to integrate God into it in some manner, some don't. God has been used to justify plenty of murders.

 

[schmuckley]

Uh, what standards? God, despite what you may believe, it not universally believed in; and even those who believe in him/her/it have a host of individual interpretations.

I don't murder because I have no desire to kill another human being, in fact the thought repulses me. I'm not Christian and I don't have to reference the 10 commandments to know that murder is wrong; and I'm hardly unique in this respect.

Everyone has their own moral code. Some choose to integrate God into it in some manner, some don't. God has been used to justify plenty of murders.

Or could it be because it be because man was made in the image of God. :hmm:
..and has a lot of the characteristics.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yeah pretty much this dead on. If you can't follow basic societal concepts of right and wrong without some "god" telling you to, then you have severe issues.

In his defense, how well have people "maintained basic concepts of right and wrong" on their own?

Do you read the paper, watch the news? Ever see the violence of Detroit, Flint, St Louis, Chicago...just to brush the surface?

How have people demonstrated that the world is a better place absent of God?

And you say he has issues? Seriously, LOL.

EDIT: What has been proven is that no God is needed for humans to be ruthless, barbaric, Darwinian animals.

 

[bshole]

Bet y'all didn't know this but God sided with the Confederates during the Civil War. Damn yankees overthrowing the institution of slavery which he had created many millenia before....

Yep there was God supplying his morals to the Southern states....

Oh G-d of the Universe! Although unworthy through my manifestold transgressions, I approach the seat of thy mercy, to crave thy favor, and to seek thy protection. I supplicate thy forgiveness, O most merciful Father, for the many transgressions and the oft repeated disobedience, which cause Thee to command destruction over me. Behold me now, O my Father, supplicating Thy protection! Thou who art near when all other aid faileth! O spare me, guard me from the evil that is impending!

This once happy country is inflamed by the fury of war; a menacing enemy is arrayed against the rights, liberties and freedom of this, our Confederacy; the ambition of this enemy has dissolved fraternal love, and the hand of fraternity has been broken asunder by the hands of those, who sit now in council and meditate our chastisement, with the chastisement of scorpions. Our firesides are threatened; the foe is before us, with the declared intention to desecrate our soil, to murder our people, and to deprive us of the glorious inheritance which was left to us by the immortal fathers of this once great Republic.

Here I stand now with many thousands of the sons of the sunny South, to face the foe, to drive him back, and to defend our natural rights. O Lord, G-d of Israel, be with me in the hot season of the contending strife; protect and bless me with health and courage to bear cheerfully the hardships of war.

O L-rd, Ruler of Nations, destroy the power of our enemies! "Grant not the longings of the wicked; suffer not his wicked device to succeed, lest the exalt themselves. Selah. as for the heads of those that encompass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. Let burning coals be cast upon them; let them be thrown into the fire, into deep pits, that they rise not up again." (Psalm 140). Be unto the Army of this confederacy, as thou were of old, unto us, thy chosen people-- Inspire them with patriotism! Give them when marching to meet, or, overtake the enemy, the wings of the eagle-- in the camp be Thou their watch and ward-- and in the battle, strike for them, O Almighty G-d of Israel, as thou didst strike for thy people on the plains of Canaan--guide them O L-rd of Battles, into the paths of victory, guard them from the shaft and missile of the enemy. Grant that they may ever advance to wage battle, and battle in thy name to win! Grant that not a standard be ever lowered among them! O L-rd, G-d, Father, be thou with us!

Give unto the officers of the Army and of the Navy of the Confederate States, enterprise, fortitude and undaunted courage; teach them the ways of war and the winning of victory. Guard and preserve, O L-rd, the President of the Confederate States and all officers, who have the welfare of the country truly at heart. Bless all my fellow-citizens, and guard them against sickness and famine! May they prosper and increase!

Hear me further, O L-rd, when I pray to Thee for those on earth, dearest to my heart. O bless my father, mother, brothers and sisters. (if married: my wife and children.) O bless them all with earthly and heavenly good! May they always look up to Thee, and may they find in Thee their trust and strength.

People spout God this and God that, and then use it to justify their own moral code.... AS IF that makes the moral code they believe in BETTER than everybody elses.

When God comes down from Heaven and proclaims to the world his moral code, then I will take it. Having a bunch of hypocritical gasbags tell me what God's moral code is just ain't doing it for me.

 

[Retro Rob]

Uh, what standards? God, despite what you may believe, it not universally believed in; and even those who believe in him/her/it have a host of individual interpretations.

I don't murder because I have no desire to kill another human being, in fact the thought repulses me. I'm not Christian and I don't have to reference the 10 commandments to know that murder is wrong; and I'm hardly unique in this respect.

Everyone has their own moral code. Some choose to integrate God into it in some manner, some don't. God has been used to justify plenty of murders.

People say this all the time... I don't need the XYZ commandment to know XYZ is wrong. Well, I can't tell, and people murder and kill anyway, so they need something.

I think it's universally recognized murder is wrong, yet, we have a HUGE problem with that in this country.

I've yet to hear a better alternative (that works) from anyone who claims "god isn't needed".

What do you propose, then, honestly, that can work?

 

[thraashman]

In his defense, how well have people "maintained basic concepts of right and wrong" on their own?

Do you read the paper, watch the news? Ever see the violence of Detroit, Flint, St Louis, Chicago...just to brush the surface?

How have people demonstrated that the world is a better place absent of God?

And you say he has issues? Seriously, LOL.

EDIT: What has been proven is that no God is needed for humans to be ruthless, barbaric, Darwinian animals.

Well it's both. Humans will use any justification they can to be monsters, sometimes that justification is god. But if the only thing keeping you moral is fear of reprisal from a god, then you are indeed a sociopath. Morality shouldn't come from the supernatural, it should come from the fact that we've evolved to have morals because it maintains and advances society. When morality breaks down, society breaks down.

 

[ch33zw1z]

That sounds about right

good you confirm. If you're going to thump your Bible, you may as well do it as accurately as possible.

 

[Retro Rob]

Well it's both. Humans will use any justification they can to be monsters, sometimes that justification is god. But if the only thing keeping you moral is fear of reprisal from a god, then you are indeed a sociopath. Morality shouldn't come from the supernatural, it should come from the fact that we've evolved to have morals because it maintains and advances society. When morality breaks down, society breaks down.

People fear reprisal from the law, does that make them a "sociopath" too? Why do you think the law is a place, anyway? So people can't walk over it?

Morality cannot come from humans, and as we've seen, we've done on hell of a job making this world worth living in.

We need a standard, that for sure... a baseline. We cannot have that with humans because every has their "version" of what's right and wrong, and you know that.

EDIT: And I am not saying it's ok to fear retaliation from God (which I lol at anyway) but just saying that everyone has some reason why they don't violate laws.

 

[sandorski]

People fear reprisal from the law, does that make them a "sociopath" too? Why do you think the law is a place, anyway? So people can't walk over it?

Morality cannot come from humans, and as we've seen, we've done on hell of a job making this world worth living in.

We need a standard, that for sure... a baseline. We cannot have that with humans because every has their "version" of what's right and wrong, and you know that.

EDIT: And I am not saying it's ok to fear retaliation from God (which I lol at anyway) but just saying that everyone has some reason why they don't violate laws.

Yet it does.

 

[thraashman]

People fear reprisal from the law, does that make them a "sociopath" too? Why do you think the law is a place, anyway? So people can't walk over it?

Morality cannot come from humans, and as we've seen, we've done on hell of a job making this world worth living in.

We need a standard, that for sure... a baseline. We cannot have that with humans because every has their "version" of what's right and wrong, and you know that.

If there was no law against drinking and driving would you do it? If there were no law against rape would you do it? Laws are designed to punish bad behavior, morality should occur regardless of the law behind it, religious or secular. Having no morals is the basic concept of sociopathy. Morality not only can but has come from humans. We've over time determined that certain things are or are not moral. It's societal. It's why Americans have no issues with drinking yet Muslims consider it forbidden. Or why the middle finger is an insult in some places and not in others. But the basics are still the basics and it takes a person or group vastly perverting the mindsets of others to interrupt those. And religion gives no protections from that.

 

[schmuckley]

In his defense, how well have people "maintained basic concepts of right and wrong" on their own?

Do you read the paper, watch the news? Ever see the violence of Detroit, Flint, St Louis, Chicago...just to brush the surface?

How have people demonstrated that the world is a better place absent of God?

And you say he has issues? Seriously, LOL.

EDIT: What has been proven is that no God is needed for humans to be ruthless, barbaric, Darwinian animals.

All those locations mentioned have a Socialist-leaning education system.Every single one of them.It's not a coincidence.You can try to say it is..but it's not.That's the problem; people turn away from God,get taught we come from monkeys..that is the outcome of a humanistic/Darwinian world view upbringing.There is no hope..you're just out to get yours,and forget helping anyone else,they'll just drag you down.

 

[Retro Rob]

If there was no law against drinking and driving would you do it? If there were no law against rape would you do it? Laws are designed to punish bad behavior, morality should occur regardless of the law behind it, religious or secular. Having no morals is the basic concept of sociopathy. Morality not only can but has come from humans. We've over time determined that certain things are or are not moral. It's societal. It's why Americans have no issues with drinking yet Muslims consider it forbidden. Or why the middle finger is an insult in some places and not in others. But the basics are still the basics and it takes a person or group vastly perverting the mindsets of others to interrupt those. And religion gives no protections from that.

My intention isn't to debate about the origin of morality, but to point out that we've been trying to create good morals for ourselves, and the point is that if there really is no God, then man, even during the totalitarianism of the Church, is the ultimate blame.

We've done a poor job of "determining what certain things are or are not moral", IMO, and the proof is in the results, which stick out like sore thumb.

 

[IronWing]

What if their moral code was the norm?
The only point I'm trying to make is:Without God there are no standards.

Any kind of rhetoric you may have been indoctrinated with in Humanities 101 will
not change that fact.

There are no standards but the ones we choose for ourselves. There is no objective moral code. Talking through a sock puppet doesn't provide legitimacy to my moral code nor to your's. My moral code is legitimate because I say it is, period. You should find similar courage to stand behind your own moral code instead of hiding behind the god you created.

 

[IronWing]

My intention isn't to debate about the origin of morality, but to point out that we've been trying to create good morals for ourselves, and the point is that if there really is no God, then man, even during the totalitarianism of the Church, is the ultimate blame.

We've done a poor job of "determining what certain things are or are not moral", IMO, and the proof is in the results, which stick out like sore thumb.

Humans, of course, are the ultimate blame. We are actually very good at coming up with good moral codes. We are lousy at following them.

 

[Retro Rob]

There are no standards but the ones we choose for ourselves. There is no objective moral code. Talking through a sock puppet doesn't provide legitimacy to my moral code nor to your's. My moral code is legitimate because I say it is, period. You should find similar courage to stand behind your own moral code instead of hiding behind the god you created.

Then how can you look back in time and rip religious fanatics for burning heretics? They chose their own morals, and based on your own admission, their moral code was legitimate because they said it?

No moral standard, and you get barbaric behavior. So if everyone makes up their own morals, then extremists have legitimate reason to be misogynic without your condescending criticism.

 

[IronWing]

Then how can you look back in time and rip religious fanatics for burning heretics? They chose their own morals, and based on your own admission, their moral code was legitimate because they said it?

No moral standard, and you get barbaric behavior. So if everyone makes up their own morals, then extremists have legitimate reason to be misogynic without your condescending criticism.

This is incorrect. By my moral standard burning heretics is wrong. I don't care if it was okay by their standards. That simply means their standards sucked. Don't confuse objective and absolute. My moral code is absolute (as I'm sure yours is) but neither are objective. Burning heretics is wrong. Misogeny is wrong and folks who think it is right are immoral. I am under no obligation to accept anyone else's moral judgments. Where we agree, you are moral, where we disagree, you're not.

 

[Retro Rob]

This is incorrect. By my moral standard burning heretics is wrong. I don't care if it was okay by their standards. That simply means their standards sucked. Don't confuse objective and absolute. My moral code is absolute (as I'm sure yours is) but neither are objective. Burning heretics is wrong. Misogeny is wrong and folks who think it is right are immoral. I am under no obligation to accept anyone else's moral judgments. Where we agree, you are moral, where we disagree, you're not.

By my standard, misogyny and burning heretics is wrong too, but in order to have a functional planet, we need a universal standard...we just do, or we're gonna continue to pick up papers and read websites reporting the murder and mistreatment of women for as long as we live.

It's obvious by how you view people who are ok with such repugnant behavior.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

All those locations mentioned have a Socialist-leaning education system.Every single one of them.It's not a coincidence.You can try to say it is..but it's not.That's the problem; people turn away from God,get taught we come from monkeys..that is the outcome of a humanistic/Darwinian world view upbringing.There is no hope..you're just out to get yours,and forget helping anyone else,they'll just drag you down.

Wow... Can't tell if trolling, or just totally inane.