Ageia PPU...maybe not so great after all.

[the Chase]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted. Why even ask that question?

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

I'm not sure how you can think that. On all the forums that I've browsed, the people that managed to buy one from Overclockers.uk when they were selling them, seem to rip them apart. Then the members join in and say "see I told you Ageia was going to flop" and "why this game to showcase this" and such. And the people who have the card agree and say "yeah I wouldn't buy one in a long while if at all if I were you- I don't see much of a difference". If that is viral marketing they better find a better virus!

You can sign me up into the "pro Ageia or PPU" camp also, but from what I've seen on these forums about the card and GRAW- I think they have a long road ahead if they make it at all and I'm not buying one until I see 10x better results (or any results?) from what I've seen so far.

 

[framerateuk]

Quite a few of us pointed out that it was be hard on the graphics card long before the card was released.

This was bound to happen as it has no acceleration effect on the graphics, it simply deals with the physics, leaving the graphics card to draw the output, and if this means 10,000 shards of glass when you break a window then thats what you'll see.

I still think its a great idea for a card, and the physics effects it deals with will add a lot to games. It could however still generate the physics without a need for the insane level of detail that we see in some of the demos. (im talking about smoke and particle effects). That would give todays GPU's more of a chance.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: the Chase

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted. Why even ask that question?

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

I'm not sure how you can think that. On all the forums that I've browsed, the people that managed to buy one from Overclockers.uk when they were selling them, seem to rip them apart. Then the members join in and say "see I told you Ageia was going to flop" and "why this game to showcase this" and such. And the people who have the card agree and say "yeah I wouldn't buy one in a long while if at all if I were you- I don't see much of a difference". If that is viral marketing they better find a better virus!

You can sign me up into the "pro Ageia or PPU" camp also, but from what I've seen on these forums about the card and GRAW- I think they have a long road ahead if they make it at all and I'm not buying one until I see 10x better results (or any results?) from what I've seen so far.

Before we saw any "user" benches, there weren't many "see, I told you so's".
I knew we would get end user results sooner or later of course, but I have looked at the naysayers and the praisers alike. I can see supporting Physics processors and their intended usage. It's a very cool concept. But I have seen the skeptics slammed by the faithful also even when the faithful have not yet even seen any real world performance. This is where I use the term "blind faith" because they have defended this product without knowing much about how it will actually perform. It's like ATi or Nvidia advertising a 128 pipe GPU and half of those pipes are dedicated to physics processing (hypothetical of course) and people defending it when they have no idea if it will suck or not, have downsides, whatever. I am not a pessimist about this technology, just cautious with my 200 to 300 bucks. I'm sure you can understand that.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted. Why even ask that question?

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

Well, you have a good point keys. However, in this situation, I am not concerned over viral marketing. Why, you ask? Well, simply. I have know that this is the direction PC's should have gone for quite a while. I am certainly not the only one who sees the importance of the PPU. Now, if someone were to push one company over the other and had comparable products, then I would have some real concern, like you. So if someone was pushing nVidia over the Intel-GPUs, I don't care if they are paid or not, it is sound advice. So, I guess what I am saying is that if indeed there is marketing here, I don't care. Because 1) I can think for myself and 2) The advice would be good.

Now as for first generation products, they are generally a bummer in most situation. That is with nearly everything. Most of us will probably wait until the second generation of the PPU before we adopt it. Thank goodness there are those out there who love to beta test. Seriously, that is what saves us all.

Good Points as well. Now what I have bolded above is really what my concern is. This is a first gen new technology product and they are usually bummers as you say. I can think for myself also, but believe it or not, a lot of folks cant or don't want to think for themselves but would much rather be told what to do when it comes to this stuff. I know, it sounds nuts to you and I, and others in here, but it does happen often enough. If I was just looking out for myself and said "the heck with everyone else" You would never see me comment on this stuff, because I wouldn't care if others potentially fell for false hype and wasted their money. This goes for any product we discuss, not just this PPU.

2nd Gens are almost always an improvement over the original. No doubt. So why is the first one being pushed so hard?

Because I suppose the company would go under if it didn't generate any sales. Not saying it is right that company releases garbage on their first attempt, but every company does this. This is almost a univeral concept in business. Always promise more than you really can fulfill. But this does allow a company to survive and make better products, eventually. I suppose this could be argued from many different angles.

I dunno, I hear you on caring for others. But there has to be a line somewhere. I mean, back when I was 12, I purchased a Voodoo Rush, because I was told that I needed a better video card. I had the card for few days before I even figured out with GLIDE and Direct3D were... It was funny, really. I mean, I fell into the hype. But, it wasn't as if it ruined my life over it. With products being returnable, I don't think it is a big deal at this point. If a customer purchases the card, doesn't like it, he can return it. Who knows, I *might* even try the first generation. But if it is indeed crap, it i going back to Best Buy/CompUSA.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: framerateuk
Quite a few of us pointed out that it was be hard on the graphics card long before the card was released.

This was bound to happen as it has no acceleration effect on the graphics, it simply deals with the physics, leaving the graphics card to draw the output, and if this means 10,000 shards of glass when you break a window then thats what you'll see.

I still think its a great idea for a card, and the physics effects it deals with will add a lot to games. It could however still generate the physics without a need for the insane level of detail that we see in some of the demos. (im talking about smoke and particle effects). That would give todays GPU's more of a chance.

I don't think we need 10,000 shards of glass if glass breaks. What I do want to see is the glass that does break, fall in the "natural" places it would as if it were real glass. Where it goes and how it reacts with the environment would be more "important" (if you consider gaming important I just enjoy it.) than how many pieces of glass there are.
If I step in the mud, let there be footprints. If I drop my weapon in the wet sand and pick it up again, let there be an imprint of the weapon in the sand. Things like this are far more desireable to me than a billion items flying around.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted.

That post didn't say even *anything* similar to your claims.

Why even ask that question?

Perhaps because your answer had nothing to do with the original post's content?
:roll:

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

Yeah, sure, we're all paid agent of AGEIA... :roll:

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Because I suppose the company would go under if it didn't generate any sales. Not saying it is right that company releases garbage on their first attempt, but every company does this. This is almost a univeral concept in business. Always promise more than you really can fulfill. But this does allow a company to survive and make better products, eventually. I suppose this could be argued from many different angles.

Of course! But that doesn't mean I'm going to be the sucker/early adopter. Let some one else beta test that crap AND pay to do it. This thing very well could become a big deal...but I'm just saying all the benefits that people keep blabbing about...aren't available yet. They're just promises of what will come. And as you pointed out...those promises are probably overpromises.

So why not wait and see? In computer hardware...waiting almost always nets you a better price and a better part. The only question is whether you CAN wait or not.

I dunno, I hear you on caring for others. But there has to be a line somewhere. I mean, back when I was 12, I purchased a Voodoo Rush, because I was told that I needed a better video card. I had the card for few days before I even figured out with GLIDE and Direct3D were... It was funny, really. I mean, I fell into the hype. But, it wasn't as if it ruined my life over it. With products being returnable, I don't think it is a big deal at this point. If a customer purchases the card, doesn't like it, he can return it. Who knows, I *might* even try the first generation. But if it is indeed crap, it i going back to Best Buy/CompUSA.

I'm not sure what you mean. Did you not need the video card? Hell, at 12 years old I don't think a voodoo rush wasn't even in my budget. I saved up to buy small lego sets.

 

[Genx87]

Well that is interesting but I guess not unexpected.

I think this seals the nail in the coffin however over the claims by Nvidia and ATI that they can do physics and expect it to perform.

These cards cant even keep up with the physics being calculated by a dedicated card, I dont see where they will get the spare cycles to perform remotely as well.

 

[the Chase]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: the Chase

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted. Why even ask that question?

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

I'm not sure how you can think that. On all the forums that I've browsed, the people that managed to buy one from Overclockers.uk when they were selling them, seem to rip them apart. Then the members join in and say "see I told you Ageia was going to flop" and "why this game to showcase this" and such. And the people who have the card agree and say "yeah I wouldn't buy one in a long while if at all if I were you- I don't see much of a difference". If that is viral marketing they better find a better virus!

You can sign me up into the "pro Ageia or PPU" camp also, but from what I've seen on these forums about the card and GRAW- I think they have a long road ahead if they make it at all and I'm not buying one until I see 10x better results (or any results?) from what I've seen so far.

Before we saw any "user" benches, there weren't many "see, I told you so's".
I knew we would get end user results sooner or later of course, but I have looked at the naysayers and the praisers alike. I can see supporting Physics processors and their intended usage. It's a very cool concept. But I have seen the skeptics slammed by the faithful also even when the faithful have not yet even seen any real world performance. This is where I use the term "blind faith" because they have defended this product without knowing much about how it will actually perform. It's like ATi or Nvidia advertising a 128 pipe GPU and half of those pipes are dedicated to physics processing (hypothetical of course) and people defending it when they have no idea if it will suck or not, have downsides, whatever. I am not a pessimist about this technology, just cautious with my 200 to 300 bucks. I'm sure you can understand that.

Yes I do understand that. I'm the same way. I guess for me I want to see the technology suceed to the best of its potential and want the cheapest (but also best) way to bring it to us. I root for Ageia because they really were the innovaters of the idea of a better way to process physics and have come up with what SEEMS to be the best solution at this time. But it still has to be proven to me and game devs still have to use it enough to warrant my purchase. It just seems that before we had any results on what the card could do that people were looking for any alternative to it whether CPU,GPU, no extra physics needed, etc. which is frustrating. If the next Gen. of video cards or CPU's are able to do the same quality of physics for the same/less then I will have to go with their solution as will most people and Ageia will die off. Bum me out some for them but my love of free markets and competition is greater than any admiration of a company.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777


Now as for first generation products, they are generally a bummer in most situation. That is with nearly everything.

Good Points as well. Now what I have bolded above is really what my concern is. This is a first gen new technology product and they are usually bummers as you say. I can think for myself also, but believe it or not, a lot of folks cant or don't want to think for themselves but would much rather be told what to do when it comes to this stuff. I know, it sounds nuts to you and I, and others in here, but it does happen often enough. If I was just looking out for myself and said "the heck with everyone else" You would never see me comment on this stuff, because I wouldn't care if others potentially fell for false hype and wasted their money. This goes for any product we discuss, not just this PPU.

Jesus, what a false statement.
The very first 3Dfx Voodoo 4MB was both financial and marketing success as well as real leap ahead in gaming: 3dfx had arguably the biggest single impact on 3D graphics until today - totally changed the course back then.

Of course it's not only false to graphics but we can check out other things like first CD-ROMs or first eth adapters, first SCSI etc.
I remember how incredibly fast and HUUUGE were those MFM hard drives...

2nd Gens are almost always an improvement over the original. No doubt.

No ******... really? :roll:
Of course, it doesn't mean the first one wasn't excellent for its time.

FYI it's not a rule either: Voodoo Rush was anything but improvement over Voodoo1. Voodoo2 was better but that's the 3rd gen product as it came after the failed Voodoo Rush.

So why is the first one being pushed so hard?

Umm perhaps because that's the way how the market(ing) works?

 

[Drayvn]

You guys do know that the Ageia PPU is coded into the Unreal Engine 3.

Tho it is about 6 months away but there are what, about 20 games announced with that engine. So there is a massive base of games for it to be used on.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777


Now as for first generation products, they are generally a bummer in most situation. That is with nearly everything.

Good Points as well. Now what I have bolded above is really what my concern is. This is a first gen new technology product and they are usually bummers as you say. I can think for myself also, but believe it or not, a lot of folks cant or don't want to think for themselves but would much rather be told what to do when it comes to this stuff. I know, it sounds nuts to you and I, and others in here, but it does happen often enough. If I was just looking out for myself and said "the heck with everyone else" You would never see me comment on this stuff, because I wouldn't care if others potentially fell for false hype and wasted their money. This goes for any product we discuss, not just this PPU.

Jesus, what a false statement.
The very first 3Dfx Voodoo 4MB was both financial and marketing success as well as real leap ahead in gaming: 3dfx had arguably the biggest single impact on 3D graphics until today - totally changed the course back then.

Of course it's not only false to graphics but we can check out other things like first CD-ROMs or first eth adapters, first SCSI etc.
I remember how incredibly fast and HUUUGE were those MFM hard drives...

2nd Gens are almost always an improvement over the original. No doubt.

No ******... really? :roll:
Of course, it doesn't mean the first one wasn't excellent for its time.

FYI it's not a rule either: Voodoo Rush was anything but improvement over Voodoo1. Voodoo2 was better but that's the 3rd gen product as it came after the failed Voodoo Rush.

So why is the first one being pushed so hard?

Umm perhaps because that's the way how the market(ing) works?

Are you trying to tell me that I should ignore you? And that you cannot handle other peoples opinions without getting a little bit edgy or almost nasty about it?
Well, you got it. Go have a :beer:

 

[ArchAngel777]

T2k,

You are coming off quite hostile... What for?

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Well that is interesting but I guess not unexpected.

I think this seals the nail in the coffin however over the claims by Nvidia and ATI that they can do physics and expect it to perform.

These cards cant even keep up with the physics being calculated by a dedicated card, I dont see where they will get the spare cycles to perform remotely as well.

Yeah, I never really understood their implementation myself. "Use idle processor time to process physics." What idle processor time? I hardly see anyone complaining their graphics card is to fast and that they can't put all its power to use these days.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777


Now as for first generation products, they are generally a bummer in most situation. That is with nearly everything.

Good Points as well. Now what I have bolded above is really what my concern is. This is a first gen new technology product and they are usually bummers as you say. I can think for myself also, but believe it or not, a lot of folks cant or don't want to think for themselves but would much rather be told what to do when it comes to this stuff. I know, it sounds nuts to you and I, and others in here, but it does happen often enough. If I was just looking out for myself and said "the heck with everyone else" You would never see me comment on this stuff, because I wouldn't care if others potentially fell for false hype and wasted their money. This goes for any product we discuss, not just this PPU.

Jesus, what a false statement.
The very first 3Dfx Voodoo 4MB was both financial and marketing success as well as real leap ahead in gaming: 3dfx had arguably the biggest single impact on 3D graphics until today - totally changed the course back then.

Of course it's not only false to graphics but we can check out other things like first CD-ROMs or first eth adapters, first SCSI etc.
I remember how incredibly fast and HUUUGE were those MFM hard drives...

2nd Gens are almost always an improvement over the original. No doubt.

No ******... really? :roll:
Of course, it doesn't mean the first one wasn't excellent for its time.

FYI it's not a rule either: Voodoo Rush was anything but improvement over Voodoo1. Voodoo2 was better but that's the 3rd gen product as it came after the failed Voodoo Rush.

So why is the first one being pushed so hard?

Umm perhaps because that's the way how the market(ing) works?

Are you trying to tell me that I should ignore you? And that you cannot handle other peoples opinions without getting a little bit edgy or almost nasty about it?
Well, you got it. Go have a :beer:

LOL, I'm glad you finally figured it out. I 'cracked the code' a little while back myself.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
T2k,

You are coming off quite hostile... What for?

WEll, I'm sorry, I just feel offended by his comments. First he came out pretty nasty against JamesDax despite the fact that he only tried to explain why this things has a long lifespan (same thing I'm trying to explain since page 1), next time he implied all this Physx-related exposure is suspicious, most likely part of some campaign (wow, what a surprise: companies have campaigns... and what a surprise: when the first PPU-enabled game hits the shelves, gamers talk about it...), then he lined up a couple of false arguments.
I don't have a problem with his opinion, only the way he's trying to sell it.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Genx87
Well that is interesting but I guess not unexpected.

I think this seals the nail in the coffin however over the claims by Nvidia and ATI that they can do physics and expect it to perform.

These cards cant even keep up with the physics being calculated by a dedicated card, I dont see where they will get the spare cycles to perform remotely as well.

Yeah, I never really understood their implementation myself. "Use idle processor time to process physics." What idle processor time? I hardly see anyone complaining their graphics card is to fast and that they can't put all its power to use these days.

Perhaps you should read up on the subject - see {H}'s latest article on DX10: http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA0NSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

PS: however I agree that it is highly unlikely any of the gfx IHVs can reach AGEIA's realm without new dedicated unit.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: Drayvn
You guys do know that the Ageia PPU is coded into the Unreal Engine 3.

Tho it is about 6 months away but there are what, about 20 games announced with that engine. So there is a massive base of games for it to be used on.

Tthat's what makes me a 'believer' or rather hope it'll be something important step.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: gersson
Link with real world benches

That game is a 360 port IIRC the physics were haphazardly just tacked on in the engine.

Ubisoft is notorious for horrible-performance titles.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
T2k,

You are coming off quite hostile... What for?

WEll, I'm sorry, I just feel offended by his comments. First he came out pretty nasty against JamesDax despite the fact that he only tried to explain why this things has a long lifespan (same thing I'm trying to explain since page 1), next time he implied all this Physx-related exposure is suspicious, most likely part of some campaign (wow, what a surprise: companies have campaigns... and what a surprise: when the first PPU-enabled game hits the shelves, gamers talk about it...), then he lined up a couple of false arguments.
I don't have a problem with his opinion, only the way he's trying to sell it.

You felt this was nasty? "So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting."

And "you" are offended? Did I insult you or your family in some way? You like the PPU and are defending it. FINE WITH THAT. (Caps so we are clear). I am skeptical about a piece of hardware, and you should be fine with that as well. Not get "offended" for cryin out loud. You didn't design the thing did you? You should not be apologizing to ArchAngel, you should be apologizing to me. You come off waaaay too hostile.

If you think you can "bully" your opinions on the rest of us, man o man are you barking up the wrong tree. I'll state my opinions and welcome any discussion about it. Look at "The chase" and "ArchAngel" and learn something. They mentioned a good point I made and explained why they did or did not agree with other points I made. And vice versa. I am grateful for this type of conversation as it makes for a civil conversation.

You need to calm down a bit and not take transistors so personally. Whether or not you agree with what I say here. Don't call anything I say false when I am simply expressing my opinion (which is not a true, or false, just an opinion).

Anyway, chill.

 

[T2k]

I'm pretty calm - actually bored a bit -, it's not me who's apparently excited. The only thing I called false was your joint statement about "first products always suck" - that was stated as nearly always the case. Which is clearly a false statement.
Apart from this I didn't like as you reacted JD's original post about the future of physical acc - his point was my point too, so that's why I didn't like it. Same goes for the 'suspicious exposure' - I'm one of those 'Physx-pushers'...
I'm cool, BTW.

Back to business... supposedly Rise of Nations also supports it, right? Now all we need is somebody playing it with Physx...

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

(EDIT: I am assuming "it" refers to physics acceleration in general, and not just AGEIA's single product.)

More or less, yes. Opposing physics acceleration is like having opposed 3D acceleration back in the day... Any person who calls themself a technology enthusiast and yet scoffs at new advancements, especially an entirely new type of processor, is fooling themselves. You don't have to embrace every bit of new technology as some devine gift, but if it is indeed progress it should be welcome.

What you don't have to support at all is AGEIA. Quite frankly it appears that AGEIA is their own enemy, standing in the way of physics being embraced by all companies. By requiring companies use their own middleware, they are slowing progress towards the glorious days of PPUs accelerating all games fully. Their implementation is poor, bringing to mind Glide and 3dfx. I'd tell you I fear AGEIA may suffer the same fate, but the fact is I don't fear it: if AGEIA wants to be the little guy who demands a physics hardware monopoly, they deserve to be cast aside. Microsoft's desires to introduce Direct Physics, recently revealed, is the best news the computer industry has heard in a while, at least since more major announcements like Core. Microsoft's monopolistic powers are actually needed here, never more so in fact. If ATI and nVidia and Havok and AGEIA are going to all dive into this physics mess, we need some standard if we will ever have 100% of games using PPUs.

I hope Direct Physics arrives swiftly with DX10 (erm, well, swiftly might not be the best word...) so that ATI and nVidia can have guidelines to follow if/when they jump in the mix. Assuming we can make AGEIA play by Microsoft rules too, the market will stabalize and everything will work out.

 

[Ichigo]

I don't think that anyone is saying that better physics is bad. But no one is going to pay $300 for mediocre special effects with worse performance. That's how it stands right now and it's only logical that people oppose Ageia at this time.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: framerateuk
Quite a few of us pointed out that it was be hard on the graphics card long before the card was released.

This was bound to happen as it has no acceleration effect on the graphics, it simply deals with the physics, leaving the graphics card to draw the output, and if this means 10,000 shards of glass when you break a window then thats what you'll see.

I still think its a great idea for a card, and the physics effects it deals with will add a lot to games. It could however still generate the physics without a need for the insane level of detail that we see in some of the demos. (im talking about smoke and particle effects). That would give todays GPU's more of a chance.

I don't think we need 10,000 shards of glass if glass breaks. What I do want to see is the glass that does break, fall in the "natural" places it would as if it were real glass. Where it goes and how it reacts with the environment would be more "important" (if you consider gaming important I just enjoy it.) than how many pieces of glass there are.
If I step in the mud, let there be footprints. If I drop my weapon in the wet sand and pick it up again, let there be an imprint of the weapon in the sand. Things like this are far more desireable to me than a billion items flying around.

Yep, this is totally true. This is also why people should not have high blood pressure with the OP's post. Having a physics card doesn't mean adding a bajillion particles. It means making better the existing objects in games. Like someone else mentioned in here, it means we can have breakable jars in Oblivion and what not.

But, if you really take a step and think about it, every new technology that drives image quality/emersion forward hits the framerate. For instance, just when cards were starting to get faster, we came out with Anisotropic Filtering and then came 2X Anti Aliasing and then 4X and then 8X and, well, you get the idea. Yet no one here is complaining about those options.

Asside from that, one user in this forum said something like "I sure hope they don't release any new video cards for a while, because I have top of the line right now". Well, first of all, that is absurdly funny in a stupid way. I mean, you want progress to stop just so you can have "top of the line"? LOL, it sounds like you are more interested in bragging and your ego than the enhancement of techology. Whatever, though... Just showing how people have some faulty logic or rather, eccentric motives that clogs their mind.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

I for one hope we see a drastic increase in GPU power from G80/R600. If not, everyone will be slogging around at low framerates for quite a while.