Ageia PPU...maybe not so great after all.

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
its no suprise it slows the graphics down

the ability to calculate physics for 1000's of objects means the GPU now has to render those 1000's of units, whereas before the cpu was maybe doing only 10's of objects

i dont see why people thought it was going to be a performance booster of somesort. yeah it takes the physics load off the CPU, but then in turn dumps the load back on the GPU which has to now render many more objects.

personally if it cut frames from 120 to 60 id be happy taking a much more realistic world over a un-noticably faster one

Which is exactly the idea. Oh nos!! I dont get 175FPS!!

 

[ArchAngel777]

Oh noes! The world is going to end... Right. All those who are freaking out should step outside the computer room, take a deep breath, untwist your panties and move out of your parents basement. You might, just might, gain some smarts.

 

[Goi]

Graphics decelerator reminds me of the S3 Virge

 

[Ichigo]

That may be the fact, but it remains to be seen if anyone wants to pay $300 and have their graphics quality lowered, no matter the reason.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: The Dome
Here you go, take the time to read the whole thing. LINK

After comments like

this is XTREME systems... nah, i figured since i got the 128mb version, i am going to need some extra speed to hang with the 256mb version.

I've actually had this sitting at my friends house since the end of march... i didnt think it was a big deal I had it lol

:Q
I'm not too convinced about his benchmarking...

Anyway he did not find any sw to test it so far.

No surprise tho: not even 3DMark supports it yet AFAIK. GRAW demo is out, that's probably the only thing - and perhaps CoV too - that supports it currently.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

How stupid can you get; this is like going from Intel Graphics at 480x640 to an X1900XT at 1920x1200 with 6xAAA and 16XAF, everything on high with HDR. Yes, your frames may go down, but... DUH.

The point of the physics card isn't to give us 2 extra FPS, it is to change gaming as we know it. Get your head out of the sand. Physics cards offer to affect GAMEPLAY in ways we can't even imagine, from liquid physics to 1000x better collision. No matter how you cut it, physics advancements can effect gameplay vastly more than most video advancements could ever hope to do. Don't let pathetic implementation just as that in GRAW represent all the infinite possibility of physics acceleration.

Physics processing has the power to one day manage animations in customized dynamic methods the CPU could never hope to accomplish. A PPU could one day take light ray samples to give us TRUE light and shadows in games, based on the actual presence or absense of light particles, exceeding the GPUs wildest shading dreams. The first PPU is "only" able to compute a mere 10,000 objects or what-have-you, and instead of appluading this massive leap forward, you complain about the increased GPU workload?!?! By your twisted logic, a card that TOOK AWAY PHYSICS and made games easier to render by removing objects would be a GOOD THING. After all, it would increase FPS!

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: Ichigo
That may be the fact, but it remains to be seen if anyone wants to pay $300 and have their graphics quality lowered, no matter the reason.

Well, as it is now it's certainly nothing more than a very vague assumption: the original article talks about one specific Physx-demo, based on the game CellFactor and we don't know any of the details. I can easily imagine they had set the # of particles/etc really high to shine the Ageia chip's power, even if it maxed out the graphics card.

OTOH think about it: do you really think it would be market-ready if it'd be DOA? It wouldn't make any sense, they would continue to work on it until they find the balance - as I'm sure they actually did so, hence the release.

However we all know there is no such thing as perfect driver, so I'm expecting more from Physx during the Summer-Fall period - in fact it seems I'll be buying one tomorrow.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Link with real world benches

 

[T2k]

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1853032&enterthread=y

 

[slash196]

Personally, I'd take a hit to the graphics for improved interactivity with the world. After all, GAMEPLAY is more important, and the Physx card improves GAMEPLAY.

 

[T2k]

Exactly my thoughts. I'd gladly trade 10% framerate for a much more interactive world... imagine when all of your weapons ran off in a forest and you just start clubbing the enemy...

BTW no 256 megs for a while, only 128MB will be available: http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/news.html?news=MTg1NzksLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdCwsLDE=

 

[imported_JamesDax]

I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

quote from [ui]ICEMAN over at the OCUK forums


800x600 with all lowest options enabled, same story.

On

Explosion 35
Grenade 55
Gunshot 80

Off

Explosion 60
Grenade 90
Gunshot 110

end quote

800x600, lowest everything and no AA or AF and just look at the FPS drop. either the PPU isnt as powerful as everyone thinks, or the developers of GRAW did the most craptacular job of implementation ever

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

My sentiments exactly. Learn to be disapointed! Some people cling on to things too hard...

"no! no! it can't be true, there must be some mistake!"

 

[imported_shaw]

Minor complaint, but this thread eminded me of Oblivion. For some reason the game urks me that in this day of age you still got invincible crates and jars everywhere.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

quote from [ui]ICEMAN over at the OCUK forums


800x600 with all lowest options enabled, same story.

On

Explosion 35
Grenade 55
Gunshot 80

Off

Explosion 60
Grenade 90
Gunshot 110

end quote

800x600, lowest everything and no AA or AF and just look at the FPS drop. either the PPU isnt as powerful as everyone thinks, or the developers of GRAW did the most craptacular job of implementation ever

The latter - GRAW is truly a uniquely "retarded" game when it comes to graphics, as I've learned last few days: its lightning is such a "great" system that it's impossible to implement AA!:Q 'Big deal, I'll scale up!' you might say but unfortunately you'll need the top-of-the line card w/ top-notch PC to do so - and jaggies won't go away.

GRAW more and more looks like another fine example of famously unbalanced (did I hear ******-up?) engines like Doom 3 and such...

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

Imagine...a bunch of effects current graphics hardware cannot render at reasonable framerates. Imagine a bunch of effects that aren't in any current games. Imagine I had a million dollars to spend on computer parts.

I'm sure this device would be totally awesome if I had a couple video cards from the future and some games that made full use of it. Go ahead and drop the $300 on one if you like, but for $300 I'd like to see more then a bunch of extra rocks flying around and a drop in framerates. I only paid $170 for my damn video card!

I'll be waiting for one to show up on PCI-E, with a more attractive price and a few titles that actually make use of it before I actually consider buying one. It certainly has potential, but whether it'll be a must have component or not remains to be seen. At the very least, it doesn't look like I'll be dying without one any time soon.

The good news is there's some talk on the inquirer about microsoft making a directx physics API. Its good and bad of course, since I'd rather see an open standard like openGL rather then directX used...but an API means we likely won't see a repeat of the tons of different standards from when 3d accelerators were introduced.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

Show me a slew of games which support all the above mentioned stuff and I will gladly shell out $300 for a PPU, provided I can do all that with playable framerates. Problem is Ageia wants your $300 now...

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

Imagine...a bunch of effects current graphics hardware cannot render at reasonable framerates.

What are you talking about? Since when how it's the fault of Physx?

And it's hardly 'cannot render at reasonable" then it's 55 vs 50 fps.
Don't feed the hysterics, please, especially not with incorrect info...

Imagine a bunch of effects that aren't in any current games.

No, you imagine that they are in the games because there's a hw to deal with them.

Imagine I had a million dollars to spend on computer parts.

?

I'm sure this device would be totally awesome if I had a couple video cards from the future and some games that made full use of it.

Call me naive but so far we haven't seen anything else but an apparently lousy exploit in GRAW... it'd be totally ridiculous to bury this thing before real PPU-enabled titles hit the shelves, don't you think?

Go ahead and drop the $300 on one if you like, but for $300

$249

I'd like to see more then a bunch of extra rocks flying around and a drop in framerates. I only paid $170 for my damn video card!

Well, it';s safe to say this card is certainly not for you... yet...

I'll be waiting for one to show up on PCI-E,

Hardly makes a difference.

with a more attractive price and a few titles that actually make use of it before I actually consider buying one.

Price won't go down significantly for long months, I bet. AGEIA already said there won't be new chip before 2007 and no 256 megs version for a while (my guess is until Fall or UT2k7).

It certainly has potential, but whether it'll be a must have component or not remains to be seen. At the very least, it doesn't look like I'll be dying without one any time soon.

That's the beauty, the freedom of choice.

I, for one, would trade 10-15% of my framerates for a magnitude better gameplay, for a truly interactive environment.

The good news is there's some talk on the inquirer about microsoft making a directx physics API. Its good and bad of course, since I'd rather see an open standard like openGL rather then directX used...but an API means we likely won't see a repeat of the tons of different standards from when 3d accelerators were introduced.

I'm the last one to defend MS but the last few years perfectly showed how utterly impotent is the OpenGL draft comittee - thanks God MS will include this in DX10. If we would wait for OGL it'd be released as v0.9 draft somewhere in late 2008, only on paper, aiming a 2010 full release...

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

Show me a slew of games which support all the above mentioned stuff and I will gladly shell out $300 for a PPU, provided I can do all that with playable framerates.

Not that it has anything to do with your first answer but they have a quite convincing future lineup: http://physx.ageia.com/titles/

Problem is Ageia wants your $300 now...

No, they don't. FYI: card isn't available in retail yet.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted. Why even ask that question?

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted. Why even ask that question?

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

Well, you have a good point keys. However, in this situation, I am not concerned over viral marketing. Why, you ask? Well, simply. I have know that this is the direction PC's should have gone for quite a while. I am certainly not the only one who sees the importance of the PPU. Now, if someone were to push one company over the other and had comparable products, then I would have some real concern, like you. So if someone was pushing nVidia over the Intel-GPUs, I don't care if they are paid or not, it is sound advice. So, I guess what I am saying is that if indeed there is marketing here, I don't care. Because 1) I can think for myself and 2) The advice would be good.

Now as for first generation products, they are generally a bummer in most situation. That is with nearly everything. Most of us will probably wait until the second generation of the PPU before we adopt it. Thank goodness there are those out there who love to beta test. Seriously, that is what saves us all.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: JamesDax
I am really shocked at how clueless many of the people here at Anadtechs is. There are so many who have no idea of the purpose and potential of hardware accelerated physics. All this complaining based on one game that doesn't even use the card to it's fullest. This card will change the way we play.

Imagine rain. Imagine everything getting wet in real time. Water running off of things. Puddles developing. Mud being crated. Imagine a game like Madden where the field gets torn up realistically(on real turf) and really effects your footing and the ball gets wet and slippery allowing for more realistic fumbling. The wind effects the ball in a realistic fashion. Or a game like Colin McRea Rally where the mud, ice, gravel and pavement REALLY effect your handling of the car. Imagine how more realistic flight sims will be.

And what about first person shooters? Forget about the added particle effects that don't effect game play like GRAW. Think about COD2. Remember the scene where you plant explosives in a building and bring it down on the enemy? A lovely scripted event. What if you could do that in real time. Anytime you wanted however you wanted.

Well I'm rambling on. My point is that only a few here seem to see the full picture of what this device can do for gaming. And when you have a rig that can render a game at 120fps i don't see losing 20-30fps as a big lose for a more realistic and interactive game environment.

So am I to understand what you're saying is that anyone who is skeptical about AGEIA is clueless? And all those who will blindly support it, are in the know? Interesting.

Interesting indeed: you must be reading another forum - where did you get all of this?

From the post I quoted. Why even ask that question?

EDIT: And something else. It seems a LOT of forums are getting AGEIA exposure. Almost to the point where viral marketing could even be a factor. I see a lot of people trying to push this product real, real hard. As if to get this product purchased so the company can survive. I don't know about you or anyone else, but this makes me think twice.

Well, you have a good point keys. However, in this situation, I am not concerned over viral marketing. Why, you ask? Well, simply. I have know that this is the direction PC's should have gone for quite a while. I am certainly not the only one who sees the importance of the PPU. Now, if someone were to push one company over the other and had comparable products, then I would have some real concern, like you. So if someone was pushing nVidia over the Intel-GPUs, I don't care if they are paid or not, it is sound advice. So, I guess what I am saying is that if indeed there is marketing here, I don't care. Because 1) I can think for myself and 2) The advice would be good.

Now as for first generation products, they are generally a bummer in most situation. That is with nearly everything. Most of us will probably wait until the second generation of the PPU before we adopt it. Thank goodness there are those out there who love to beta test. Seriously, that is what saves us all.

Good Points as well. Now what I have bolded above is really what my concern is. This is a first gen new technology product and they are usually bummers as you say. I can think for myself also, but believe it or not, a lot of folks cant or don't want to think for themselves but would much rather be told what to do when it comes to this stuff. I know, it sounds nuts to you and I, and others in here, but it does happen often enough. If I was just looking out for myself and said "the heck with everyone else" You would never see me comment on this stuff, because I wouldn't care if others potentially fell for false hype and wasted their money. This goes for any product we discuss, not just this PPU.

2nd Gens are almost always an improvement over the original. No doubt. So why is the first one being pushed so hard?