After my arm workout - size is good but shoud I get more definition?

[Amused]

Originally posted by: aCynic2

Originally posted by: AmusedI am ANYTHING but typical for an all natural weight lifter. Nice try, but I know better.

You can tell me I'm full of sh!t all day long. Care to match size and strength results? The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

In order for such a comparison to be valid, we would have to have similar starting parameters, similar training ages, etc. A case of all things being equal. You should know this.

Well, according to you I shouldn't be above average. I should be below average and over-trained. My results should not be as exceptional as they are.

The fact of the matter is, low volume/high intensity split training works, and works VERY well.

I just kind of feel sorry for you, and anyone who follows your advice. You're working MUCH harder than you need to be working for not nearly the potential you could achive.

More (with the exception of intensity) is NOT better when it comes to weight training for size and strength. Never was, never will be.

 

[mrkun]

You know, I saw this argument starting to develop and jokingly thought to myself "Haha, I bet Amused is involved."

 

[HamSupLo]

what's the argument at? frequency vs intensity? Can't you have both? I do one upper body part then a lower body part each workout.

 

[aCynic2]

Originally posted by: AmusedMore (with the exception of intensity) is NOT better when it comes to weight training for size and strength. Never was, never will be.

You're welcome to take your argument to JPFitness and argue against all the CSCSs there. People with decades of experience at training all walks of life vs your personal experience at training yourself over...how long?. However, I suspect you won't because your argument is full of holes. You're putting anecdotal evidence of one case ahead of research.

And as I said before, anything works, nothing works forever and frequency combined with an undulating periodization works far better than simply body-part splits. But you continue as you are taking three step forward and two back.

 

[Chunkee]

cut your biceps a bit more... you are on good path with great start...

concentrate on preacher to get the heads near your delts...tough area to get.. mine also..do NOT over work them...they are small muscles and need a great deal of recovery. 8 sets should be good..

your delts and traps are good...balance a bit more with triceps also focusing on outer head....skull crushers and french press will get them up there and then cut them with reverse grip single cable pull downs...

enjoy your youth and work out safely...i am almost 40 and have been doing it for 30 years... take a good break after 8 weeks of heavy lifting for 7-10 days...eat and sleep well and stretch and mild cardio...come back stronger than ever...

kudos to you and all your hard work...

jC

 

[aCynic2]

Originally posted by: HamSupLo
what's the argument at? frequency vs intensity? Can't you have both? I do one upper body part then a lower body part each workout.

Only one of each?

I know Cosgrove follows the Schmidt six:

Squat
Deadlift
Lunge
Push
Pull
Twist

But he tends to split squat and deadlift so that you aren't doing both in the same workout, at least in the first two fat loss programs in NROL. In the hypertrophy programs, he has you doing them in the same workout and splits the program between upper and lower so you can do it 4x/week if you please, provided you give 48 hours rest between workouts.

But then Cosgrove does such evilness as to superset bulgarian split squats with step-ups and on the 3x15 day, you only have 30s rest. I've not done it yet, but I hear nothing but complaints about how hard it is.

He also bitches about people doing all these curls, but unable to do a single pull-up or chin-up. Totally non-functional work.

I've seen befores and afters of people who have done it. The transformation is amazing.

 

[TheNinja]

Originally posted by: Amused

I'll be 40 this year. I know a bit about over-training.

And I believe my results speak for themselves. You can try and claim I lift "stupidly" but in reality, I minimize everything except intensity. Frequency, sets and reps are all minimized and intensity is maximized.

BTW, I'm 100% natural having taken only Creatine and Protien...

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/back2.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0438.JPG

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amused/IMG_0672.JPG

But apparently I'm lifting stupid and don't know what I'm doing, right?

dang man...you are a monster for being 40...or for any age at that matter. I'm going to be 30 soon and hope to be in as good as shape as you when I'm 40. I'm a naturally small guy. I have to work my ass off and treat eating like a chore. It is easy for me to skip meals b/c I'm not usually hungry, so I have to force myself to eat.

I'm with you on the whole split thing. I'm sure there is evidence that states a full body workout 3x a week is fine too. My only problem is that I don't have time for a full body workout. I can also tell you that after I do squats, I'm sore for at least 3-4 days and can't imagine trying to do them 2 days later again.

I might try the full body workout soon to try and train my body to recover quicker, or maybe a 2day split soon, I think 2 major things to remember for everyone is

1. Change up your routine - don't do same split/exercises for more than 3-4 months
2. People's bodies are different, some need more time to recover, therefore certain people can train differently

 

[aCynic2]

Originally posted by: TheNinja
1. Change up your routine - don't do same split/exercises for more than 3-4 months

The change up should be more often than that to avoid any slow downs due to adaptation. Every 4-8 weeks you should change up the exercises, even the parameters of rest, tempo sets and reps.

Movement pattern is the last thing the body actually adapts to. It'll adapt to load first.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: aCynic2

Originally posted by: AmusedMore (with the exception of intensity) is NOT better when it comes to weight training for size and strength. Never was, never will be.

You're welcome to take your argument to JPFitness and argue against all the CSCSs there. People with decades of experience at training all walks of life vs your personal experience at training yourself over...how long?. However, I suspect you won't because your argument is full of holes. You're putting anecdotal evidence of one case ahead of research.

And as I said before, anything works, nothing works forever and frequency combined with an undulating periodization works far better than simply body-part splits. But you continue as you are taking three step forward and two back.

And yet, according to you I should be over-trained and underdeveloped.

And I've only been lifting seriously for 4 years. Most of my size was gained in the first year and a half. (I'd lifted on and off since my teens, but never this seriously) For most of my life I was thin, until my 30s and I started gaining weight and started working out again to combat the weight gain. I started with running, worked my way up to 5+ miles a day and didn't like being so skinny, so I started lifting.

Your problem is no matter how hard you try, you cannot argue with my results. Full body training will get results for any newbie... (hell just about anything will show results for a newbie) but it will NOT take someone to their full size and strength potential. Low volume/high intensity training is the best way to do that.

And ExRx.net (arguably the best exercise page on the web) agrees with me.

So keep knocking yourself out and staying small. Anyone who wants to get as big as they can can listen to me.

 

[mrkun]

Out of curiosity, what's considered "low volume/high intensity"?

 

[Accipiter22]

Originally posted by: mrkun
Out of curiosity, what's considered "low volume/high intensity"?

high weights, not a lot of sets...low reps

 

[Nutdotnet]

Originally posted by: mrkun
You know, I saw this argument starting to develop and jokingly thought to myself "Haha, I bet Amused is involved."

Haha...I have my $$$ on Amused.

Someone who thinks "full-body workouts" are the "key to sucess" loses a little credibility in my book.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: Accipiter22

Originally posted by: mrkun
Out of curiosity, what's considered "low volume/high intensity"?

high weights, not a lot of sets...low reps

Isn't that a strength workout? Hypertrophy is typically 8-12 reps/set with <90 second recovery, no?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: Accipiter22

Originally posted by: mrkun
Out of curiosity, what's considered "low volume/high intensity"?

high weights, not a lot of sets...low reps

Isn't that a strength workout? Hypertrophy is typically 8-12 reps/set with <90 second recovery, no?

No.

You're not going to get stronger without getting bigger. You're not going to get bigger without getting stronger. Muscle size and strength are directly correlated.

My size exploded when I dropped my rep range to 6-8 and stretched my recovery out to 3-4 minutes.

 

[aCynic2]

Originally posted by: Amused
And I've only been lifting seriously for 4 years. Most of my size was gained in the first year and a half. (I'd lifted on and off since my teens, but never this seriously) For most of my life I was thin, until my 30s and I started gaining weight and started working out again to combat the weight gain. I started with running, worked my way up to 5+ miles a day and didn't like being so skinny, so I started lifting.

New lifters do see quick gains early on. I went from not being able to do a single chin-up when I first started to doing three perfect, past the neckline chin-ups the very next workout. Something that isn't used much will see big increases once you start using it.

Your problem is no matter how hard you try, you cannot argue with my results. Full body training will get results for any newbie... (hell just about anything will show results for a newbie) but it will NOT take someone to their full size and strength potential.

And again, I invite you to take this argument right here to forums.jpfitness.com. There are others who can explain it better than I. But it comes down to this:

Research shows frequency works better than intensity. The metabolism returns to normal in about 48 hours and the body begins to detrain after that. You really need to listen to people who have read the research, work professionally training others and log the results. The idea that what works for you works for everyone is just fcking retarded.

And exrx is NOT the best. It's decent, but it's certainly not the best. A lot of the animated gifs they have for exercise demonstration show bad form.

And as for staying small, that is another show of what a retarded simian you are. Lifting weight has greater value than just gaining mass. There is the improvement good functional strength, something you don't get with a body-part split. But, you keep on with your simple one track simian thinking. It only affects you.

 

[aCynic2]

Originally posted by: Amused
You're not going to get stronger without getting bigger. You're not going to get bigger without getting stronger. Muscle size and strength are directly correlated.

Retard alert!

Here's the top few of our deadlift chart:

3.38 - Eric Cressey (635/188)
2.89 - John Sullivan (605/209)
2.83 - TheSteve (495/175)
2.79 - Tony G (560/201)
2.69 - ryan122185 (374/139)
2.67 - Mike_S (465/174)
2.60 - Frank.S (545/210)
2.60 - Outta_Town (405/156)
2.60 - Patricia (315/121)
2.60 - hard_rox (405/156)
2.59 - Jokerz (375/145)
2.55 - AJ Roberts (705/276)

Compare AJ Roberts (bottom of the list) to Eric Cressey (top). According to your simple thinking, this shouldn't be. Cressey should be lifting significantly less weight because he almost a hundred lbs less than Roberts. Could it be...no, yes? Strength is a matter of neural efficiency. The ability of the body to process the signals.

Hell, look at all those people lifting more in terms of strength to weight ratio than Roberts.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: aCynic2

Originally posted by: Amused
And I've only been lifting seriously for 4 years. Most of my size was gained in the first year and a half. (I'd lifted on and off since my teens, but never this seriously) For most of my life I was thin, until my 30s and I started gaining weight and started working out again to combat the weight gain. I started with running, worked my way up to 5+ miles a day and didn't like being so skinny, so I started lifting.

New lifters do see quick gains early on. I went from not being able to do a single chin-up when I first started to doing three perfect, past the neckline chin-ups the very next workout. Something that isn't used much will see big increases once you start using it.

Your problem is no matter how hard you try, you cannot argue with my results. Full body training will get results for any newbie... (hell just about anything will show results for a newbie) but it will NOT take someone to their full size and strength potential.

And again, I invite you to take this argument right here to forums.jpfitness.com. There are others who can explain it better than I. But it comes down to this:

Research shows frequency works better than intensity. The metabolism returns to normal in about 48 hours and the body begins to detrain after that. You really need to listen to people who have read the research, work professionally training others and log the results. The idea that what works for you works for everyone is just fcking retarded.

And exrx is NOT the best. It's decent, but it's certainly not the best. A lot of the animated gifs they have for exercise demonstration show bad form.

And as for staying small, that is another show of what a retarded simian you are. Lifting weight has greater value than just gaining mass. There is the improvement good functional strength, something you don't get with a body-part split. But, you keep on with your simple one track simian thinking. It only affects you.

Wow, when you have nothing... resort to insults. :roll:

The proof is in the results... not the insults. I have the results, you have the insults. Guess who people are going to believe?

And why would I take my argument to a board where the majority believe the same myth you do? What would I gain by that? That's like asking me to take my agnosticism to a religious forum.

ExRx has the best no-nonsense, myth free information on fitness on the web. They are much more than just animated .gifs... none of which I have seen bad form on.

 

[jiggahertz]

Originally posted by: aCynic2

Originally posted by: Amused
And I've only been lifting seriously for 4 years. Most of my size was gained in the first year and a half. (I'd lifted on and off since my teens, but never this seriously) For most of my life I was thin, until my 30s and I started gaining weight and started working out again to combat the weight gain. I started with running, worked my way up to 5+ miles a day and didn't like being so skinny, so I started lifting.

New lifters do see quick gains early on. I went from not being able to do a single chin-up when I first started to doing three perfect, past the neckline chin-ups the very next workout. Something that isn't used much will see big increases once you start using it.

Your problem is no matter how hard you try, you cannot argue with my results. Full body training will get results for any newbie... (hell just about anything will show results for a newbie) but it will NOT take someone to their full size and strength potential.

And again, I invite you to take this argument right here to forums.jpfitness.com. There are others who can explain it better than I. But it comes down to this:

Research shows frequency works better than intensity. The metabolism returns to normal in about 48 hours and the body begins to detrain after that. You really need to listen to people who have read the research, work professionally training others and log the results. The idea that what works for you works for everyone is just fcking retarded.

And exrx is NOT the best. It's decent, but it's certainly not the best. A lot of the animated gifs they have for exercise demonstration show bad form.

And as for staying small, that is another show of what a retarded simian you are. Lifting weight has greater value than just gaining mass. There is the improvement good functional strength, something you don't get with a body-part split. But, you keep on with your simple one track simian thinking. It only affects you.

Wow, I've read a lot of weightlifting articles/forums over the past 10 years. Rarely do people agree 100% on what training methods are the most efficient. But I don't think I've ever heard someone call anything but "full-body" workouts retarded. I'm not familiar with the men's health forums, but if it's anything like the magazine, I can see why this thread has degraded so badly. You also seem to be arguing from a fitness point of view instead of bodybuilding (which I thought what this thread was about ).

 

[purbeast0]

i agree with amused.

i used to overtrain and worked out each muscle 2 times a week. that is when I was tiny but I was ripped (like 155lbs).

i then learned I was over training and not getting enough rest, and since I was working out too much i was not getting enough rest. as soon as I started doing each muscle once a week, I saw MUCH more gain than before.

when you workout more than 2 muscle groups in one workout, you just get fatigued and you aren't working as hard as you can. i tried doing chest, shoulders, then triceps one time in one workout ... and it was a waste.

people think that I live in the gym and that all I do on my spare time is workout. they are pretty surprised when I tell them that I only go to the gym 3-4 times a week (haven't been doing legs in some time cause my lower back is hurting and my broken ankle is bugging me).

people are especially shocked when I tell them what my abs workout consists of and that I only do it once a week.

 

[aCynic2]

Originally posted by: Amused
And why would I take my argument to a board where the majority believe the same myth you do? What would I gain by that? That's like asking me to take my agnosticism to a religious forum.

I figured as much, just waited for you to actually say no thanks. Again, we're talking about CSCSs (Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialists, the best cert you can get), people who make their money training athletes.

Jonathan Fass trains athletes at his Rutgers, Coach Dos is the Strength Coach of the Year, Tony G, Mike Robertson, Eric Cressey all write for T-nation, the best source for lifting information, and train professional athletes.

Ah, but you have the best proof of your argument...you're own results for yourself.

 

[aCynic2]

Originally posted by: purbeast0
people think that I live in the gym and that all I do on my spare time is workout. they are pretty surprised when I tell them that I only go to the gym 3-4 times a week (haven't been doing legs in some time cause my lower back is hurting and my broken ankle is bugging me).

How much time are you in a day are you in the gym?

That's another part of the equation. Four times a week, but how many hours a day? Body-part splits are not time efficient.

 

[glenn beck]

Truth is everybody is different, and everybodys body reacts differently to supplements and different intensities of exercises, just experiment, always change up.
I've been a personal trainer for years, it is impossible just to tell one person how to get bigger or stronger without experimenting and finding their strengths and
weaknesses before hand. I'm right damnit! Don't make me buss out the glenn beck pics

 

[TallBill]

Yup, never seen anyone bash non full body workouts. Different stuff works for different people. And not everyone has the same goals anyways.

 

[purbeast0]

Originally posted by: aCynic2

Originally posted by: purbeast0
people think that I live in the gym and that all I do on my spare time is workout. they are pretty surprised when I tell them that I only go to the gym 3-4 times a week (haven't been doing legs in some time cause my lower back is hurting and my broken ankle is bugging me).

How much time are you in a day are you in the gym?

That's another part of the equation. Four times a week, but how many hours a day? Body-part splits are not time efficient.

My weight lifting sessions are no longer than an hour.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: glenn beck
Don't make me buss out the glenn beck pics

Do it, you wont do it!