ABS, why have the option of turning them off?

[overst33r]

Sorry but I gotta bust your bubble and tell you that running "pizza trays" vs. a wider tire isn't not going to hurt braking performance whatsoever. Tire width has no relation to braking performance so long as we're talking about pneumatic tires that are designed for the vehicle. If you want to improve braking performance, you need a better tire compound if you're already capable of locking up said wheels. Tire width only helps with rolling resistance and handling but it does not, I repeat a wide tire will NOT make a car brake better than using the stock width.

Quoted for laughs.

Here, read this: http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32163

You're confusing the coefficient of friction with traction.

The bigger the contact patch the more traction you can get. Period.

 

[fleabag]

Quoted for laughs.

roflmao

Quoted for arrogance and idiocy. You people don't know your stuff and let me tell you, YOU'RE WRONG. I'm just waiting for people to chime in "but what about drag racers with their big wide wheels!!"..

It should be noted however that going from a narrower to wider tire does NOT change the size of the contact patch, all it does is change the shape. Another benefit to wide tires vs. narrow tires besides cornering is that it provides better cooling which may be necessary depending on the application.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/30/sports/l-narrow-vs-wide-in-tire-safety-001090.html
Another link:http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=330790

 

[brblx]

you're regurgitating shit you've read on the internet and not even doing it properly.

wider tires on the same size wheel will have a larger contact patch. wider tires on a wider wheel, even more so. more tire touching the road means more friction which means more traction. basic fucking science.

let me guess, running your tires at 50psi also has no effect on braking performance?

 

[exdeath]

you're regurgitating shit you've read on the internet and not even doing it properly.

wider tires on the same size wheel will have a larger contact patch. wider tires on a wider wheel, even more so. more tire touching the road means more friction which means more traction. basic fucking science.

let me guess, running your tires at 50psi also has no effect on braking performance?

Not to support his idiocy, but technically friction does not depend on surface area.

That said tires are far more complex than basic friction. The confusion starts when people inappropriately interchange friction and traction, which even I do often.

 

[fleabag]

you're regurgitating shit you've read on the internet and not even doing it properly.

wider tires on the same size wheel will have a larger contact patch. wider tires on a wider wheel, even more so. more tire touching the road means more friction which means more traction. basic fucking science.

let me guess, running your tires at 50psi also has no effect on braking performance?

no, no no. We're not doing it this way.. Let's try this again. We're going to keep it very simple in order to not unintentionally add factors to the equation we do not want to add.

Ok, a 6in wide tire on a 6 in wide rim on a Honda Civic will NOT, I repeat will NOT have a larger contact patch than a 4 inch wide tire on a 4 in wide rim on the same Honda Civic. Inflation pressures and tire compounds being the same. The only thing that will change is the SHAPE of the contact patch. SHAPE. Wider tires makes the contact patch more horizontal while a narrower tire will make the contact patch more vertical.

 

[exar333]

Quoted for arrogance and idiocy. You people don't know your stuff and let me tell you, YOU'RE WRONG. I'm just waiting for people to chime in "but what about drag racers with their big wide wheels!!"..

It should be noted however that going from a narrower to wider tire does NOT change the size of the contact patch, all it does is change the shape. Another benefit to wide tires vs. narrow tires besides cornering is that it provides better cooling which may be necessary depending on the application.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/30/sports/l-narrow-vs-wide-in-tire-safety-001090.html
Another link:http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=330790

Wrong wrong wrong.

 

[brblx]

your argument made more sense when i misunderstood it. a wider tire on a too-narrow wheel will probably not be able to utilize all its tread width. a wider tire on a wider wheel will contribute in some way to better braking without a doubt.

exdeath- i'm just trying to simplify it as much as possible. if two surfaces have set frictional properties (i.e. a certain type of road surface and a certain tire compound), having a greater contact area between the two will increase friction.

 

[fleabag]

Wrong wrong wrong.

This is the problem, it's a common misconception that for equal weights and pressures that a wider tire on a wider rim will have a larger contact patch with the road and will ALSO have better traction. If you want a bigger contact patch with the road, you need to weigh down the wheel more. Just go read the links I posted because they're able to explain in much greater detail as to why I'm right.

 

[thescreensavers]

ABS only works best in slippery conditions like rain but on gravel, snow or even dry pavement, you can always get better braking without ABS than with it. ABS is to allow the driver to brake the vehicle while maintaining control of it so they can steer around the obstacle.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

Your a god damn troll, gtfo of AT

 

[SpatiallyAware]

This is the problem, it's a common misconception that for equal weights and pressures that a wider tire on a wider rim will have a larger contact patch with the road and will ALSO have better traction. If you want a bigger contact patch with the road, you need to weigh down the wheel more. Just go read the links I posted because they're able to explain in much greater detail as to why I'm right.

Ugh ugh ugh. This all assumes that the tire doesn't deflect/deform to help adhere to the road surface (i.e. all of the rough surfaces push into the rubber on your tire).

 

[exdeath]

This is the problem, it's a common misconception that for equal weights and pressures that a wider tire on a wider rim will have a larger contact patch with the road and will ALSO have better traction. If you want a bigger contact patch with the road, you need to weigh down the wheel more. Just go read the links I posted because they're able to explain in much greater detail as to why I'm right.

Hint #1) weight on the tires change as the vehicle accelerates and brakes

Hint #2) the tire changes it's shape to increase it's contact area in response to the change in weight

Hint #3) tires can change shape along their width easier than front to back, they don't like to stray too far from their round shape.

If you still don't get it (and I suspect you won't), picture how much that 4" tire, lacking in width, would have to squish down and deform into a half circle shape, to equal vertically the same contact area of a 12" wide tire flattening along it's width horizontally. It can't, and won't.

 

[brblx]

just because there's more weight per square inch on a narrower tire doesn't mean the size of a larger tire will be completely negated.

fleabags argument is basically in promotion of narrow snow tires (which work). it has nothing to do with normal road driving. do you seriously think all the race cars that use wider tires were just built with people under the influence of 'misconceptions?'

 

[overst33r]

no, no no. We're not doing it this way.. Let's try this again. We're going to keep it very simple in order to not unintentionally add factors to the equation we do not want to add.

Ok, a 6in wide tire on a 6 in wide rim on a Honda Civic will NOT, I repeat will NOT have a larger contact patch than a 4 inch wide tire on a 4 in wide rim on the same Honda Civic. Inflation pressures and tire compounds being the same. The only thing that will change is the SHAPE of the contact patch. SHAPE. Wider tires makes the contact patch more horizontal while a narrower tire will make the contact patch more vertical.

Here is some experimental data from AVON that refutes your dribble.

http://www.performancesimulations.com/fact-or-fiction-tires-1.htm

You honestly think a traction limited car with bicyle wide tires will accelerate at the same rate as one with 10in wide tires?

 

[exdeath]

Here is some experimental data from AVON that refutes your dribble.

http://www.performancesimulations.com/fact-or-fiction-tires-1.htm

You honestly think a traction limited car with bicyle wide tires will accelerate at the same rate as one with 10in wide tires?

No, but they will both have the same stopping distance if they both stood up on the brakes at 100 mph LMAO

 

[fleabag]

just because there's more weight per square inch on a narrower tire doesn't mean the size of a larger tire will be completely negated.

fleabags argument is basically in promotion of narrow snow tires (which work). it has nothing to do with normal road driving. do you seriously think all the race cars that use wider tires were just built with people under the influence of 'misconceptions?'

They use wider tires in order to handle temperature control of the tires, not to mention the better handling that is afforded a car with a wider tire. Wide tires mean less rolling resistance but better chance of hydroplaning, "following the road", better handling, and better temperature control but does NOT MEAN BETTER BRAKING DISTANCE.

 

[fleabag]

Here is some experimental data from AVON that refutes your dribble.

http://www.performancesimulations.com/fact-or-fiction-tires-1.htm

You honestly think a traction limited car with bicyle wide tires will accelerate at the same rate as one with 10in wide tires?

I think you guys have missed the entire point of this argument.

The argument is, do wider tires provide better braking performance over narrower tires and the answer is: No.

 

[jaha2000]

They use wider tires in order to handle temperature control of the tires, not to mention the better handling that is afforded a car with a wider tire. Wide tires mean less rolling resistance but better chance of hydroplaning, "following the road", better handling, and better temperature control but does NOT MEAN BETTER BRAKING DISTANCE.

http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Vehic.../dp/1560915269

Go take a class that involves this book.....
I have....
your wrong.... /thread...

 

[ayabe]

I think you guys have missed the entire point of this argument.

The argument is, do wider tires provide better braking performance over narrower tires and the answer is: No.

I think a visual demonstration is in order.

Ask your mom if you can do some tests with the Lexus, first with the stock wheels on the front. Use a tape measure, no cheating!

Now for the second test, please grab the donuts from the lexus and the volvo(don't worry if they're not the same size), put them on the front of the car and repeat the same test, preferably close to a concrete wall or other barrier.

Please record on video and post it to youTube, be sure to mention how this demonstrates that you've completely pwnt the AT Garage.

 

[exdeath]

 

[thomsbrain]

I've logged several hundred thousand miles each on cars with and without ABS, and I would rather have ABS any day, in any condition. The systems do NOT prevent you from threshold braking; in fact they make it easier to threshold brake because the penalty for slightly over-braking is so tiny.

For anything other than a perfectly smooth, perfectly flat, perfectly dry, perfectly straight piece of pavement, you'll get the best performance by just standing on the pedal and letting the electronics sort out the thousands of slight variations in traction as you move over the surface of the road or shift the car's weight.

Even most hard-core track junkies never disable their ABS systems. It's not faster or safer to do so.

 

[lurk3r]

Sorry but I gotta bust your bubble and tell you that running "pizza trays" vs. a wider tire isn't not going to hurt braking performance whatsoever. Tire width has no relation to braking performance so long as we're talking about pneumatic tires that are designed for the vehicle. If you want to improve braking performance, you need a better tire compound if you're already capable of locking up said wheels. Tire width only helps with rolling resistance and handling but it does not, I repeat a wide tire will NOT make a car brake better than using the stock width.

Wow, just wow, this kid's felony stupid.

--edit, on the re-read nothing he said is actually wrong. The spirit of what he said is, but his claim is increasing the tire with from stock will not help braking, which while not completely correct, is also not necessarily wrong.

 

[pray4mojo]

Quoted for arrogance and idiocy. You people don't know your stuff and let me tell you, YOU'RE WRONG. I'm just waiting for people to chime in "but what about drag racers with their big wide wheels!!"..

It should be noted however that going from a narrower to wider tire does NOT change the size of the contact patch, all it does is change the shape. Another benefit to wide tires vs. narrow tires besides cornering is that it provides better cooling which may be necessary depending on the application.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/30/sports/l-narrow-vs-wide-in-tire-safety-001090.html
Another link:http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=330790

yea the shape becomes bigger.

 

[JJ650]

Holy crap. I just wrote out a long winded explanation of why both sides can be correct given the instance studied. Click submit and server error. WTH!?

Will now go with short version:
Wide tires disperse a load better when utilizing a soft compound (small soft tires cannot support the load. Wider tire for better load distribution). Huge shear forces involved when braking. A softer compound will need a wider tire to help resist the forces invovled.
Width can help in cornering.
Racers NEED the wider rim when a softer compound is used, otherwise the narrower tires using a soft compound will be trashed too quickly.
Compounds really are the determining factor (and the rotor/caliper setup) in stopping power.
Shit tire = shit braking.

With or without ABS on shit tire = still shit braking

 

[69Mach1]

Very droll

 

[JulesMaximus]

No arguments on ABS. I love being able lock up the Brembos and getting a nose bleed without a tire chirping. I know that's something I absolutely could not do without the ABS.

Traction control, on the other hand, at least in my case, made the car feel less predicable and more dangerous. I've come closer to sliding into curbs WITH traction control on than off, it just makes the car feel numb when it cuts in.

Yeah, I just think more people want to be able to disable TC completely because they read in the auto rags about the test drivers complaining about TC being too intrusive so they want the ability to disable it completely...which they may not even be able to handle (especially a n00b driver in his teens or early 20s).

My wife's Lexus has TC and honestly, it doesn't make enough power to warrant disabling it (although, the IS350 does). I've driven it in the wet and been unable to get into trouble with it while trying my hardest...which is probably best for her anyway.

Honestly, I haven't driven many cars with TC. I prefer that my car doesn't have it personally but I can see where it would be very useful especially with some of the ubber powerful German cars being produced today.