ABS, why have the option of turning them off?

[PhoKingGuy]

Same reason they have the option to disable traction control...so that people who think they know how to drive can crash their cars.

+1

It amazes me on how many people on MKVGTI or VWVortex drive around with traction control off.

Its usually the same ones that end up sliding into shit sooner or later

 

[exdeath]

Same reason they have the option to disable traction control...so that people who think they know how to drive can crash their cars.

*rolleyes* Here comes the safety nanny and black box proponent.

My car with traction control disabled is much more connected and predictable in a slide than the loose floaty slippery feeling of the traction control intervening and cutting power. I have it disabled by default in the tune.

Traction control cutting power unexpectedly and ABS braking doing something faster than a human can are two different animals.

Traction control takes away something that the operator can take away at will just as easily (by easing off the throttle for example) and interrupts your sense of grip and balance when it cuts in and out unexpectedly. ABS on the other hand not only does something for the operator that the operator cannot possibly accomplish manually, but more importantly, it also does so in concert with the operators wishes (pressing the brake pedal).

It's people who think like you and driving in the very vehicles you hate, who cause accidents because they think all the latest electronic stability nannies in their 4x4s make them safe and invincible. I've seen more AWD cars with stability gizmos skid off the side of the road because they were going too fast for conditions than cars without those features who were going a reasonable speed to begin with.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

ABS only works best in slippery conditions like rain but on gravel, snow or even dry pavement, you can always get better braking without ABS than with it. ABS is to allow the driver to brake the vehicle while maintaining control of it so they can steer around the obstacle.

I seriously think the mods need to add some sort of disclaimer as your user title.

 

[69Mach1]

Ok, well On my 97 Bonneville if even 1 tire is slipping ABS kicks in and you can't get stopped very well even if 3 tires are on bare pavement. Here in Idaho we have lots of days when the roads are partially bare.(2 wheels on bare pavement, 2 on ice) It takes a lot longer to get stopped under these conditions than you can without ABS. It won't matter if you know about it, but the first time I drove this car under those conditions I nearly put it in a canal. One of the old tricks of stopping on ice is to try to get at least 1 tire on bare road, this trick doesn't work with the ABS system on this particular car. My 98 F150 is better about this but still not as good as regular old style brakes.

 

[boomerang]

I crewed on a racing team for about 10 years that raced Corvettes. The last year I was with them we were racing in the Speedvision World Challenge GT series. We had a three car team and all the cars had ABS. The reasoning was that it was nothing more than an insurance policy. If the wheels locked up for whatever reason, it was there with the hope that it would be beneficial.

We had to add weight to the cars to race in the class anyway, so it was no detriment in that regard.

 

[LTC8K6]

Ok, well On my 97 Bonneville if even 1 tire is slipping ABS kicks in and you can't get stopped very well even if 3 tires are on bare pavement. Here in Idaho we have lots of days when the roads are partially bare.(2 wheels on bare pavement, 2 on ice) It takes a lot longer to get stopped under these conditions than you can without ABS. It won't matter if you know about it, but the first time I drove this car under those conditions I nearly put it in a canal. One of the old tricks of stopping on ice is to try to get at least 1 tire on bare road, this trick doesn't work with the ABS system on this particular car. My 98 F150 is better about this but still not as good as regular old style brakes.

More modern/better ABS systems can work on each wheel independently.

 

[brblx]

yeah. i had ABS on a '94 cavalier and it was absolutely pathetic. modern cars, even economy ones, are way better and don't just equate to stomping up and down on the brake pedal.

i agree with exdeath on traction control making you more disconnected from the car and possibly causing accidents from unpredictability. stability is worse, though, as it will only help you hold a turn so much, then can pretty much let go without warning.

both points are moot for street cars, though. you shouldn't be accelerating hard enough to spin your wheels and you shouldn't be trying to hit maximum speed in corners. i don't care how good a driver you are, keep it on the track.

having a manual transmission and manual steering also helps you feel the road, but since the majority of people struggle to competently drive an automatic econobox, i'm not going to campaign for it.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

forget the internet for a sec. in face to face discussions with people concerning ABS and other driver aides, i've found those that claim to out-perform the driver aides in non-race track situations also happen to be not very intelligent, poorly educated and lousy fucking drivers.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

forget the internet for a sec. in face to face discussions with people concerning ABS and other driver aides, i've found those that claim to out-perform the driver aides in non-race track situations also happen to be not very intelligent, poorly educated and lousy fucking drivers.

When you purchase certain AMG cars they make you sign a waiver stating you know the consequences of turning off VDC/TS and that they severely recommend that you do not under non-controlled conditions

 

[zerocool84]

I seriously think the mods need to add some sort of disclaimer as your user title.

I'd sign that petition.

 

[exdeath]

i agree with exdeath on traction control making you more disconnected from the car and possibly causing accidents from unpredictability. stability is worse, though, as it will only help you hold a turn so much, then can pretty much let go without warning.

BTW I didn't mean that like "I'm the best driver in the world I don't need electronics they just get in the way". I love my ABS.

I literally mean the traction control felt like ass. The car still slid out when it was intervening but with zero feedback, you couldn't *feel* anything solid and had no idea where the rear was going to end up. It was like the rear tires just disappeared, a very unnerving feeling. In addition the power just completely died from the TC intervening with fuel/ignition.

With traction control off you can actually feel the forces of the tires tugging at the car when you are getting loose and know exactly what the car is doing or is about to do.

 

[JulesMaximus]

*rolleyes* Here comes the safety nanny and black box proponent.

My car with traction control disabled is much more connected and predictable in a slide than the loose floaty slippery feeling of the traction control intervening and cutting power. I have it disabled by default in the tune.

Traction control cutting power unexpectedly and ABS braking doing something faster than a human can are two different animals.

Traction control takes away something that the operator can take away at will just as easily (by easing off the throttle for example) and interrupts your sense of grip and balance when it cuts in and out unexpectedly. ABS on the other hand not only does something for the operator that the operator cannot possibly accomplish manually, but more importantly, it also does so in concert with the operators wishes (pressing the brake pedal).

It's people who think like you and driving in the very vehicles you hate, who cause accidents because they think all the latest electronic stability nannies in their 4x4s make them safe and invincible. I've seen more AWD cars with stability gizmos skid off the side of the road because they were going too fast for conditions than cars without those features who were going a reasonable speed to begin with.

Well good for you Mario.

My favorite car only has ABS, and I've driven it near the limit so I actually do know how to drive a fast car...fast. I think ABS is a great safety feature, in fact, I wish my motorcycle had it. You think car nuts are bad about safety features like traction control and ABS? You should talk to motorcyclists about these things. A professional motorcycle rider can, just barely, defeat modern ABS systems on dry pavement. They absolutely cannot defeat a modern ABS system in the wet though. Throw changing or unfamiliar roads or especially emergency situations into the mix and ABS is clearly far superior to human ability.

Fact is, people drive their cars on roads that run the gamut of traction and condition and those levels of traction frequently change from one day to the next. Nobody can operate a car and maintain the maximum or even anywhere near the maximum limits of the car all the time...nor do most drivers even know what the maximum is. If they did, there would never be any accidents.

Give someone an SUV and they feel all rugged and invincible as though that vehicle makes someone more likely to defy the laws of physics...or a better driver. I've heard people proclaim this and I agree with you there. When I grew up in the North East the vehicles you'd usually see in the ditch first were the 4x4 trucks/Blazers.

 

[Need4Speed]

Well good for you Mario.

When I grew up in the North East the vehicles you'd usually see in the ditch first were the 4x4 trucks/Blazers.

I will have to agree with that. I see it every day in the winter.

 

[PricklyPete]

Same reason they have the option to disable traction control...so that people who think they know how to drive can crash their cars.

This...

 

[69Mach1]

I will have to agree with that. I see it every day in the winter.

A lot people with 4x4s don't seem to understand that they only go better on slick surfaces, but they stop just like anything else. Unless you understand this, 4 wheel drive is only good for getting you in trouble faster.

 

[PricklyPete]

A slightly on-topic anecdotal story...

All cars I've owned since my '92 Camry have had ABS, and I've never thought twice about my brakes and how well they worked...each car has stopped the car in what I considered a reasonable distance.

My wife brought into our relationship a '04 Civic that did not have ABS brakes (can't believe that Honda was still offering cars in 2004 without ABS brakes). Anyway, her car had the worst brakes I had ever experienced. While obviously the fact that it did not have ABS was not the only reason they sucked, but because they were so bad, she locked the breaks several times when things got dicey because she was afraid the shitty brakes would not stop her in time and panicked. My truck (2005 Tacoma...with DRUM brakes in the back) is 60% heavier than her car...and brakes/stops significantly better.

Fast forward to Wednesday of this week, my wife slammed on her breaks during a traffic issue and was unable to stop in time and rear-ended the car in front of her. Her brakes locked and it was a perfectly dry environment. Was she following too close behind...probably. Has she learned her lesson? Hopefully. Will her next car have significantly better brakes with ABS...absolutely.

 

[brblx]

my jetta doesn't have ABS and i have no problems with my brakes locking up. yes, ABS is good, no, a car's not dangerous without it. go teach her how to drive.

sounds to me like somebody put some cheap, shitty, hard-ass parts store brake pads on her car. there's nothing wrong with the braking power of a civic, it's just as competent as any other econobox.

 

[PingSpike]

I haven't ever owned a car with ABS, so I can't really compare. I think it only started becoming standard on econoboxes recently. I use the old pump technique when going down hills.

Whether its good or not, I believe a car gets a boost on its safety score if its standard and I think it takes money off your insurance rate so I figure everything is going to have it soon enough.

I remember reading a thread on another forum once where ABS or traction control was the main topic. And then some one said that he didn't think air bags were a good idea for some reason, which seemed crazy until some other guy who apparently really missed his Model T said that he wasn't sold on seat belts.

 

[PricklyPete]

my jetta doesn't have ABS and i have no problems with my brakes locking up. yes, ABS is good, no, a car's not dangerous without it. go teach her how to drive.

sounds to me like somebody put some cheap, shitty, hard-ass parts store brake pads on her car. there's nothing wrong with the braking power of a civic, it's just as competent as any other econobox.

I won't disagree on her driving as I wasn't there to experience what happened and how avoidable it was. I'm glad to see that you are a supreme being and know exactly what happened. I will chide her when I get home.

A car is not dangerous without ABS (I've had several without ABS brakes), but having ABS is definitely a plus from a safety stand point for everyday driving.

I do whole-heartedly disagree with you on the Civic's brakes as I have direct experience with these. This car has been regularly serviced with OEM parts at the Honda dealership and her brake pads were relatively new. I've checked the brakes myself several times because they seemed so bad...and everything looked just fine. Brake fluid levels fine and lines properly bled...pads fine and all properly attached. Rotors clean. The car has SHITTY brakes.

 

[exdeath]

Well good for you Mario.

My favorite car only has ABS, and I've driven it near the limit so I actually do know how to drive a fast car...fast. I think ABS is a great safety feature, in fact, I wish my motorcycle had it. You think car nuts are bad about safety features like traction control and ABS? You should talk to motorcyclists about these things. A professional motorcycle rider can, just barely, defeat modern ABS systems on dry pavement. They absolutely cannot defeat a modern ABS system in the wet though. Throw changing or unfamiliar roads or especially emergency situations into the mix and ABS is clearly far superior to human ability.

Fact is, people drive their cars on roads that run the gamut of traction and condition and those levels of traction frequently change from one day to the next. Nobody can operate a car and maintain the maximum or even anywhere near the maximum limits of the car all the time...nor do most drivers even know what the maximum is. If they did, there would never be any accidents.

Give someone an SUV and they feel all rugged and invincible as though that vehicle makes someone more likely to defy the laws of physics...or a better driver. I've heard people proclaim this and I agree with you there. When I grew up in the North East the vehicles you'd usually see in the ditch first were the 4x4 trucks/Blazers.

No arguments on ABS. I love being able lock up the Brembos and getting a nose bleed without a tire chirping. I know that's something I absolutely could not do without the ABS.

Traction control, on the other hand, at least in my case, made the car feel less predicable and more dangerous. I've come closer to sliding into curbs WITH traction control on than off, it just makes the car feel numb when it cuts in.

 

[exdeath]

I do whole-heartedly disagree with you on the Civic's brakes as I have direct experience with these. This car has been regularly serviced with OEM parts at the Honda dealership and her brake pads were relatively new. I've checked the brakes myself several times because they seemed so bad...and everything looked just fine. Brake fluid levels fine and lines properly bled...pads fine and all properly attached. Rotors clean. The car has SHITTY brakes.

What size tires? Tires are the most important factor in stopping distance and brake performance. It wouldn't matter if you had 16" rotors and 8 piston calipers and ABS. If you are running thin little pizza trays for tires like most economy cars tend to have, it's still not going to stop very well. Even the ABS will struggle with a higher duty cycle and less actual stopping time as the tires continuously try to slide.

Remember ABS works by *relaxing* the braking when the wheel slides instead of rolls. If the ABS is working twice as hard with crappy tires, then the wheel is only spending half of it's time braking and the other half sliding. Even though it's alternating between those states very quickly in small slices at a time instead of all at once, your total braking effectiveness is still the integral of the times during every other cycle where the ABS isn't intervening and reducing braking.

 

[brblx]

I won't disagree on her driving as I wasn't there to experience what happened and how avoidable it was. I'm glad to see that you are a supreme being and know exactly what happened. I will chide her when I get home.

A car is not dangerous without ABS (I've had several without ABS brakes), but having ABS is definitely a plus from a safety stand point for everyday driving.

I do whole-heartedly disagree with you on the Civic's brakes as I have direct experience with these. This car has been regularly serviced with OEM parts at the Honda dealership and her brake pads were relatively new. I've checked the brakes myself several times because they seemed so bad...and everything looked just fine. Brake fluid levels fine and lines properly bled...pads fine and all properly attached. Rotors clean. The car has SHITTY brakes.

sorry for being a dick, but that's just the way i feel- can't stop a car on dry pavement without jamming the pedal to the floor and locking the brakes? either learn to drive, get a new car, or get off the road.

and if the brakes are really shitty to the point that they feel unsafe, something is wrong. maybe your standards are just a bit high. i've driven pretty much every kind of economy car from the past ten years, and i can't think of a single one that had brakes that were really THAT much worse than any of the others.

 

[lurk3r]

I've had 2 accidents caused by horribad ABS. Ford Contours are dangerously horrible, my Dodge Avegners were horrible, even my 02 subaru was horrible (ABS would kick in on washboarded pavement and cause you to loose steering). The Altima (06) is the first car I've owned with ABS that I don't consider dangerous. Having said that, my buddie's 95 caddy had great ABS.

If you're talking an old cheap POS, and you have an idea what threshold braking is you're probably better off pulling the ABS fuse. Any modern car should outperform anyone reading these forums.

 

[fleabag]

What size tires? Tires are the most important factor in stopping distance and brake performance. It wouldn't matter if you had 16" rotors and 8 piston calipers and ABS. If you are running thin little pizza trays for tires like most economy cars tend to have, it's still not going to stop very well. Even the ABS will struggle with a higher duty cycle and less actual stopping time as the tires continuously try to slide.

Remember ABS works by *relaxing* the braking when the wheel slides instead of rolls. If the ABS is working twice as hard with crappy tires, then the wheel is only spending half of it's time braking and the other half sliding. Even though it's alternating between those states very quickly in small slices at a time instead of all at once, your total braking effectiveness is still the integral of the times during every other cycle where the ABS isn't intervening and reducing braking.

Sorry but I gotta bust your bubble and tell you that running "pizza trays" vs. a wider tire isn't not going to hurt braking performance whatsoever. Tire width has no relation to braking performance so long as we're talking about pneumatic tires that are designed for the vehicle. If you want to improve braking performance, you need a better tire compound if you're already capable of locking up said wheels. Tire width only helps with rolling resistance and handling but it does not, I repeat a wide tire will NOT make a car brake better than using the stock width.

 

[exdeath]

sorry but i gotta bust your bubble and tell you that running "pizza trays" vs. A wider tire isn't not going to hurt braking performance whatsoever. Tire width has no relation to braking performance so long as we're talking about pneumatic tires that are designed for the vehicle. If you want to improve braking performance, you need a better tire compound if you're already capable of locking up said wheels. Tire width only helps with rolling resistance and handling but it does not, i repeat a wide tire will not make a car brake better than using the stock width.

roflmao