I was going to post an opinion but I think instead I will just laugh because it's all pointless, didn't you guys see The Matrix? None of us are real anyways. If there's one thing Hollywood has taught me it's that no matter what your life choices are there will always be some cliche interveining force that comes out just when you least expect it. Life is good as long as Michael Moore isn't directing. Hell, even in the horror movies they all end up happy. So why can't we just all agree that this is probably another one of Stephen Speilburg's glorified failures and just wait for the sequal to decide?
Originally posted by: Legendary
The difference lies in specialization - prenatal cells are not specialized (until later on, of course) aka this is where the whole stem cell idea comes from - stem cells can become any (maybe not all, but most) types of human cells. So eventually, one of the cells of a fetus will become the skin on your ass. Poor bastard cells
I guess the point of my question isn't a scientific one but rather one that asks the person
to equate the "cells" that may grow into a baby (if not aborted) to the cells of the skin
on your butt.
Reminds me of the quote in one of the lonesome dove books when a guy gets killed for no
reason goes something like "By God! life's mighty cheap on the Canadian" (river).
I'm sentient, self-sustaining, feel emotional attachments to others, others feel emotional attachments to me, and I feel pain.
She most likely could have gone farther and done more if not pregnant. There's also the physical toll she paid and any residue from not fitting in with her peers. That last is a proven need humans have, and not having it fulfilled has been shown to leave lasting emotional scars in some cases. Further, what one person can do, has done, or has experienced means nothing when talking about something that affects millions of people. Why can you not leave anecdotes out of this? I could tell you about a girl I went to high school with who got pregnant, dropped out, had the kid, had a string of low paying dead-end jobs and a string of dirtbag boyfriends, many of whom abused the kid... but that's only one girl. I have the intelligence and logic necessary to realize it has no bearing on the argument. :roll:
Again, nothing more than the rantings of a sexist who knows that his own irresponsible actions won't have nearly so severe a consequence.
Nobody is arguing that, but it's irrelevant. A zygote is no more a person than the cells on my behind. If it growing could become a problem to me, like a tumor, I'd have it removed for my own well-being.
Lol, am I really hearing this? It "sunk to a new level" when I compared a zygote to skin cells, but not when the murder of doctors was condoned
I should fully expect it by now, but it always takes me by surprise that a tech site, which should be a haven for intelligent and educated people, attracts such conservative God Squad members I've never understood the desire for control over others; for power. Perhaps it's because of a recessive trait, perhaps because of a genetic mutation, perhaps nothing more than having been an only child and experiencing no competition with siblings. When I see it in action, such as with this issue and the related issue of religion, it never fails to disgust me.
I'm sexist because I know that if I have sex with my girlfriend there is a chance she will get pregnant? Or I'm sexist because I know that my girlfriend knows that when she has sex with me there is a chance she can get pregnant?
Saying I'm sexist because I know the possible consequences of my own actions is stupid. Being ignorant of the consequences ("I didn't know I could get pregnant. I was on the pill and that means I can't get pregnant") is no justification for killing a human life.
The bottom line is that beyond being raped, a woman CHOOSES to have sex. If you choose to have sex then you are 100% responsible for being pregnant and you shouldn't have an option to kill a life you created by means of your own choice.
Ignorance of the law is not a valid excuse to a judge. You will be fined/punnished. You are responsible for your actions.
Ignorance of how you can get pregnant is not a valid excuse for abortion. You are responsible for your actions and you should be required to take the child to birth.
I don't even know how you can compare a zygote to cells on your ass. A skin cell is a skin cell. A skin cell is your life. A zygote is another human being.
There are people who would kill you without regard to these things. Are they murderers or on a higher plane of intelligence as you clain to be?
Aside from the fact that it's impossible to be pro-"life" without being sexist, comments about how it's a woman's fault if she's pregnant and such are why I say that. Last I checked, it took sperm as well for pregnancy to occur, and women weren't the gender so desperate for sex that prostitution and pornography were such huge industries. They're the gender that gets pregnant and deals with the consequences, and it's easy for male sexists to place all the blame on them.
If zygotes are human beings, why aren't they called human beings? Why don't they count in censuses? Why don't they get you tax breaks? Why is something so small, not fully developed, which isn't sentient, which feels no emotion and does no thinking a person? Because of its potential. Sperm and egg cells have that same potential, so by the same logic any male not busy having consentual sex with all the willing women he can find and raping the unwilling ones is a murderer. Likewise any woman who wouldn't consent is guilty of attempted murder. Scientists researching a possible cure for cancer are murderers, because they could be working on increasing the number of eggs women have. It's ridiculous logic.
Originally posted by: Gurck
I'm sentient, self-sustaining, feel emotional attachments to others, others feel emotional attachments to me, and I feel pain.
She most likely could have gone farther and done more if not pregnant. There's also the physical toll she paid and any residue from not fitting in with her peers. That last is a proven need humans have, and not having it fulfilled has been shown to leave lasting emotional scars in some cases. Further, what one person can do, has done, or has experienced means nothing when talking about something that affects millions of people. Why can you not leave anecdotes out of this? I could tell you about a girl I went to high school with who got pregnant, dropped out, had the kid, had a string of low paying dead-end jobs and a string of dirtbag boyfriends, many of whom abused the kid... but that's only one girl. I have the intelligence and logic necessary to realize it has no bearing on the argument. :roll:
Again, nothing more than the rantings of a sexist who knows that his own irresponsible actions won't have nearly so severe a consequence.
Nobody is arguing that, but it's irrelevant. A zygote is no more a person than the cells on my behind. If it growing could become a problem to me, like a tumor, I'd have it removed for my own well-being.
Lol, am I really hearing this? It "sunk to a new level" when I compared a zygote to skin cells, but not when the murder of doctors was condoned
I've never understood the desire for control over others; for power. Perhaps it's because of a recessive trait, perhaps because of a genetic mutation, perhaps nothing more than having been an only child and experiencing no competition with siblings. When I see it in action, such as with this issue and the related issue of religion, it never fails to disgust me.
I've never believed killing anyone in cold blood to be a good idea.
But I do find it interesting that many of the same people who cry out
against the death penalty are the very ones who cry for the right of
abortion and others that spend their lives protecting some form of animal or plant life
to an extreme have no problems with abortion.
Speaking of intelligent and educated people....
I mentioned nothing about God that God and or religion bashers like to jump up and down
and cry foul about but merely asked why you equate "a few cells (a Zygote) to what you
call "skin cells" (you know the cells you kill when you scratch your butt).
You still didn't answer my question.....is there no difference between a Zygote and skin cells?
Why is it that for a woman who wants to carry a child in her body it's called a "baby" and for
the woman who doesn't it's called a "few cells"?
Does the level of being wanted or desired decide what you call something?
Just some things to think about.......
Plain and simple to your mind.....but thankfully you don't speak nor do you think for everyone.
Newp, just the law-abiding majority.
It's because abortion isn't murder. Not that I fit your mold; I'm all for the death penalty, in fact I think it's not utilized nearly enough. Everyone convicted of murder should receive it, not just (some of) those convicted of premeditated and/or extraordinarily violent and/or multiple murders. I am big on saving animals though. I generally do so in tupperware, but saran wrap and tin foil have their place as well.
Obviously there are differences. None which make it wrong to discard of a zygote if it's going to inconvenience you. You didn't have to bring up religion. Only someone who believes in god and an afterlife could be pro-"life". Otherwise a zygote is just a zygote.
Well obviously it takes a sperm and an egg to get pregnant. Nobody ever said that both parties were not equally responsible for the pregnancy (at least I didn't). What I'm saying is that once a woman is pregnant, she becomes solely responsible for carrying the child. When she made the choice to have sex she knows that there is a chance she can get pregnant. If she does, then she becomes responsible to bring the child to birth (nobody else can give birth to the child). She shouldn't have the option to kill is because it is inconvenient for her. If it is so inconvenient to have a kid then she shouldn't be having sex in the first place, unless she is willing to accept the responsibilities that come with being pregnant. Yes I have sex with my girlfriend and if she got pregnant it would be terribly inconvenient, but we also accept the responsibility that sex carries with it. That is we accept that we could become parents.
A sperm has no potential to be sentiant or show emotion. Those are human traits. A sperm is not a human.
An egg has no potential to be sentiant or show emotion. Those are human traits. An egg is not a human.
A zygote has the potential to be sentiant, to show emotion and to show every single human trait. Why? Because it is a human.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,758
- 603
- 126
My official stance on abortion is that it should be more difficult to get one. I used to be vehemently pro life, but there's so many factors and its a slipperly slope to go down. Plus, as some one said women are just going to get coat hangered like they did in the 50s or whatever.
A POINT I REALLY WANTED TO MAKE, however is how its all the womans right to choose. It takes two to make a baby, but only one holds the power to kill it. A father has no legal say in whether a child is wanted or not. If the mother did not want the child but the father did and was willing to take it and raise it on his own, he doesn't have a leg to stand on if trying to keep her from aborting it. At the same time, the father will be legally obligated to pay child support to a child regardless of whether he wanted it or not.
Its kind of fvcked up.
A POINT I REALLY WANTED TO MAKE, however is how its all the womans right to choose. It takes two to make a baby, but only one holds the power to kill it. A father has no legal say in whether a child is wanted or not. If the mother did not want the child but the father did and was willing to take it and raise it on his own, he doesn't have a leg to stand on if trying to keep her from aborting it. At the same time, the father will be legally obligated to pay child support to a child regardless of whether he wanted it or not.
Its kind of fvcked up.
While you didn't say outright that both parties weren't equally responsible for pregnancy, I felt you did imply it. Given the above explanation it may just be a miscommunication.
A sperm cell and an egg cell together have potential to become a human being. Just because the two haven't met up doesn't differentiate the situation from that of a zygote.
The woman is the one inconvenienced, it makes sense that she's the one with the say in that situation. I don't see a reason to make it more difficult; it's basically a very, very expensive condom. Price alone is enough of a deterrant.
First off, sometimes it just takes a few repeats from both sides to get an understanding
This next quote starts to head down another path altogether though. I say that if it is going to happen, that the abortion should be done at a private clinic and paid for by the client. I don't see this as being a problem in the United States as I believe everything is private. Here in Canada people are pushing to have abortions be publicly funded. This is something that tax payers should not be footing the bill for. Although if the pregnancy was a rape then you can do it at a public hospital. (As a rape there would need to be a criminal investigation so you couldn't really get away from using it as free bith control).
How long will you people go on arguing the same points over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?
You definitely have a point. I was operating on the assumption that many girls who're in the position of not wanting a child because it would interfere with their college or even (ugh) high school education wouldn't know which of 5-10 or so guys were the father, leading to a situation where there'd be no legally mandated child support. Even if true though, situations vary.
Yet again....the value of life is worth zero.
I find it interesting that you said you are for the death penalty for premediated killing
but advocating the loss of life through abortion acceptable, but then again I find many
things interesting that people say.....
Originally posted by: Stefan
First off, sometimes it just takes a few repeats from both sides to get an understanding
This next quote starts to head down another path altogether though. I say that if it is going to happen, that the abortion should be done at a private clinic and paid for by the client. I don't see this as being a problem in the United States as I believe everything is private. Here in Canada people are pushing to have abortions be publicly funded. This is something that tax payers should not be footing the bill for. Although if the pregnancy was a rape then you can do it at a public hospital. (As a rape there would need to be a criminal investigation so you couldn't really get away from using it as free bith control).
Fully agree on this.
Again, I don't feel abortion is any more murder than the use of contraceptives, homosexuality, restraint when it comes to intercourse, or an exceptional fondness for deviant sex over vaginal intercourse.
Hrm, in another reply you pretty much rolled your eyes at people who're against capital punishment... If both sides are wrong, where, perchance, do you stand on the issue?
Originally posted by: Gurck
Hrm, in another reply you pretty much rolled your eyes at people who're against capital punishment... If both sides are wrong, where, perchance, do you stand on the issue?
Not sure about where "I pretty much rolled my eyes" post is you referred to but
I'm wholeheartedly for capital punishment of those found guilty of premediated
murder in a court of law and never said or hinted (as far as my thoughts) that
I was against it.
Any killing that is outside of the court mandated judgements whether it be an
abortion doctor or nurse or anyone else who makes their living killing unborn
children or where people take the law into their own hands I'm not for at all.
I'm sure we have some common thoughts on some issues, but believing a fertilized
egg has the same value as a few skin cells on my rear or even the skin that is flaking
off me right now because I sunburned my forearms isn't one of them.
No one has answered me why when a woman wants to carry a fertilized egg
to birth she is carrying a "baby" but when a woman doesn't want to carry that
same fertilized egg it's called a "few cells" or "mass of cells" when they are
aborted and discarded.
Something to the effect of 'most people who support abortion are against capital punishment and eating meat'Originally posted by: jyates
Originally posted by: Gurck
Hrm, in another reply you pretty much rolled your eyes at people who're against capital punishment... If both sides are wrong, where, perchance, do you stand on the issue?
Not sure about where "I pretty much rolled my eyes" post is you referred to but
I'm wholeheartedly for capital punishment of those found guilty of premediated
murder in a court of law and never said or hinted (as far as my thoughts) that
I was against it.
Well firstly I'd love to know which propagandized anti-abortion site you got this tidbit from. Secondly, for the most part people are impressionable, women moreso, and a large group of people, mostly men, who really don't care about abortion but rather control and power are screaming at them that it's wrong. It might be how a few abortion patients offset the unnecessary feeling of guilt shoved wrongly at them.
Originally posted by: Gurck
Something to the effect of 'most people who support abortion are against capital punishment and eating meat'Originally posted by: jyates
Originally posted by: Gurck
Hrm, in another reply you pretty much rolled your eyes at people who're against capital punishment... If both sides are wrong, where, perchance, do you stand on the issue?
Not sure about where "I pretty much rolled my eyes" post is you referred to but
I'm wholeheartedly for capital punishment of those found guilty of premediated
murder in a court of law and never said or hinted (as far as my thoughts) that
I was against it.
Well firstly I'd love to know which propagandized anti-abortion site you got this tidbit from. Secondly, for the most part people are impressionable, women moreso, and a large group of people, mostly men, who really don't care about abortion but rather control and power are screaming at them that it's wrong. It might be how a few abortion patients offset the unnecessary feeling of guilt shoved wrongly at them.
Here's what I said............................
"But I do find it interesting that many of the same people who cry out
against the death penalty are the very ones who cry for the right of
abortion and others that spend their lives protecting some form of animal or plant life
to an extreme have no problems with abortion."
The irony between lack of care for the unborn and the high regard for other life forms is rich.
I haven't read any anti-abortion sites to come up with that "tidbit". I'm simply
pointing out a question that still hasn't been answered no matter how much
attack is thrown at those who care about the unborn.
Is a baby still a baby if it's not wanted? Or does it magically turn into a cell mass?
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 384
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
Facebook
Twitter