Abortion

[BigToque]

However, I don't think that anyone has a right to tell a woman that she must carry to term.

Without a valid reason (the reasons I agree with are those listed in my original post), it should be illegal to abort a fetus and the consequences should be no better than those that people get when they kill any other human being.

I also think, however, that abortions are WAY to easy to get and the right is often abused. When Iw as younger, an abortion was a shameful thing. And, I remember... when I lived in England... a woman had to get two doctors to sign off before a woman could abort. Sure, it was just a formality, but it was better, in my opinion, than just having the baby sucked down a tube without thinking.

I think there should be a couneling session (at least one) before an abortion is preformed. I think that all options should be discussed. I think it is disgustiing that anyone under the age of 18 is allowed to go and get abortions without parental, (or other adult) supervision. I think partial birth abortions are barbaric, and unless the life of the mother is in immediate danger, they should be banned.

I agree. Abortions are WAY to easy to get. I fully support needing permission by doctors before they will preform an abortion. As for children under 18, I believe that they should be required to have parental/guardian supervision.

We can argue about when life begins from now until the Second Coming. We all have our personal opinions on that and on whether abortions should be legal. I think it is not so black and white. I have miscarried, more than once, and can honestly say that early first trimester and late second trimester pregnancies are not even close to being the same. Again, partial birth abortions, imho, are akin to murder and there needs to be a damn good reason for one.

I don't think there is any arguement on when life begins. Life begins at conception. There is no way to deny that. The only thing that can be argued is when is life granted the rights of all other humans. I say that its rights begin at conception. (again, also saying that the mothers rights come before those of the fetus in select situations)

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan
Most of these things come up after reading the advice columns in my newspaper each morning.

Today there was a young girl (22) who left her boyfriend of 2 years because she cheated on him (he doesn't know this though). She finds out that she is pregnant from the guy that she cheated with. The advice columnist helps her with her different options regarding going back to her old boyfriend, confronting the guy she cheated with, and staying with her father. Then she adds in "if you decide to keep the child..."...

The way I look at abortion is that it should not just be used as a form of birth control. I think that a person should be free to abort a child if it is conceived by means of rape, if there is sufficient evidence that the child will be born with severe illness/defects, or if the pregnancy will pose harm to the mother.

I don't believe that women should be allowed to abort a child on the grounds that they used bad judgement and made a mistake.

What do you guys think of my opinion?

I think your opinion makes slaves of women. I think no one has a right to tell anyone else what they may, and may not do to thier body.

Here's a neat thing to think about:

How about we attach Richard Simmons to your body. To remove him would kill him, but not you. What would you choose to do?

I wouldn't let you attach him in the first place. I don't see how that is even relevant.

As for the other issue, I used to think like you and I was totally for abortion in any case (I am for abortion in a few select cases). Later, I started to realize that everyone in our society cries foul when our rights to "freedom" are encroached on. Your right to freedom doesn't mean that you are free to do whatever you like without any accountability for your actions.

To take things further, a fetus is a human being and as such has all the same rights that you and I have. This would put me in the light of not supporting any abortion (and this is contradictory of my belief), but I also see that a pregnant woman has the right to stop a pregnancy if it will cause harm to herself, if the child will have a severe disability, or if the mother is the victim of rape. In other words I see that the mother has rights that supercede the fetus in these cases.

A fetus is a being BIOLOGICALLY dependent on another human being. It's rights cannot supercede another's.

Unless I'm mistaken in my definition, supercede means come before. I said the mothers rights come before the fetus in these circumstances. Not the other way around.

And I say the mother's rights ALWAYS supercede the fetus' rights.

Ahh... I got ya now

 

[fredtam]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: fredtam

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am pro choice

Me too. If the kid gets old enough and wants to off himself that is his choice but abortion should not be used as birth control. The mother (barring rape ) already made her choice or more appropriately didn't.

So you would be pro-life?

I'm pro "if your ass was on birth control you wouldn't be killing a baby"

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: fredtam

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: fredtam

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am pro choice

Me too. If the kid gets old enough and wants to off himself that is his choice but abortion should not be used as birth control. The mother (barring rape ) already made her choice or more appropriately didn't.

So you would be pro-life?

I'm pro "if your ass was on birth control you wouldn't be killing a baby"

lol Damn straight.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: DWW

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
here's a good thought for everyone.. why dont we teach the damn kids to be more responsible so they dont go around fvcking everyone else. i know where i live it's bad (probably not as bad as inner city) but there's an 8th grade girl with 3 kids of her own. my response to that is WTF????? WTF kind of parents did she have? people need to start taking responsibility for their actions instead of making pitiful excuses.

but but but then you would be infringing on their "rights" you a$$hole. Mind your own business...damn neocons :frown:

/sarcasm

how am i infringing on their rights, DWW? im telling people to take responsibility for what they've done instead of taking the easy way out. honestly, do you want 8th graders becoming mothers, DWW? at least that girl had the kids, rather than killing them off. just because something is convenient for us doesn't make it right, nor does it make it convenient for others.

 

[Chelsey]

"parents need to parent, damnit, and teach their kids some fvcking responsibility"

I agree completely Fenixgoon.

I didn't research the methods of abortion because I wouldn't agree with them and I would probably become rather upset by how it's done. Thank you for informing me

I would hope that somewhere out there there's someone who is researching a better way to end a baby's life. If not, I'm not so sure that I want to live in today's society anymore:S

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Abortion is killing a life. That is undeniable. The only question is what rights that life has..which devolves into when you can classify that life as human. Pro-choice people will attempt to DEhumanize the unborn child in an attempt to bolster their contention.

There was another group of people in Germany some decades ago who were similarly dehumanized to justify their torture and murder. If you're pro-choice and making the argument that an unborn child is not classified as human, then stop for a second and look at who you're in bed with.

And what's the WORST possible scenario for being forced to carry the baby to birth?

1. You place the child up for adoption. OMFG NOOOOO!O!!!!!!!!! TEH HORROR!!!!!!!
2. You raise the child and, darn, can't stay out late clubbing any more. OMFG NOOOEOEOOEEOO!!!!!

And what's the WORST possible scenario for having abortion?

1. Knowing for the rest of your life that you partook in the slaughter of a helpless child who was depending on you, above all others, to protect and nurture it. I'm sure the arguments about biological dependency will make you feel fine about it, though. :roll:

And you fence-riders need to grow some backbone.

 

[Legendary]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Chelsey
In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place.

would jabbing a sharp object through your skull and into your brain be painless? that's one of the ways it works. since the brain is the center of the nervous system, you bet that that sharp object (scissors, knife, etc.) is felt.

don't know how many people saw my post above, so i'll recap in a nutshell:

parents need to parent, damnit, and teach their kids some fvcking responsibility

The brain is incapable of feeling pain - there are no nerve endings.

Look at it this way - a woman has a digestive parasite - it is eating her food, taking her nutrients, and getting larger by the day. It is not cellularly complex. It is causing health problems. Does the woman have a right to get rid of that parasite?
Now change the word parasite to prebirth baby. Not cellularly complex? Think first/second trimester. I'm not saying babies themselves are parasites, but before they are born their actions are very similar to parasites. The truth is babies, before they are born, infringe on the rights of the mothers. If the mother does not agree with this, then she has the right to do something about it.

This is an extreme analogy (by far) but that's the argument of some pro-lifers. Personally I think the gov't should stay the F out of people's business and that's why I'm pro-life.

 

Without a valid reason (the reasons I agree with are those listed in my original post), it should be illegal to abort a fetus and the consequences should be no better than those that people get when they kill any other human being.

That's nice what's next, barcodes?
So who gets charged with the crime? The mother AND the father, or just the mother?

 

[DWW]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: DWW

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
here's a good thought for everyone.. why dont we teach the damn kids to be more responsible so they dont go around fvcking everyone else. i know where i live it's bad (probably not as bad as inner city) but there's an 8th grade girl with 3 kids of her own. my response to that is WTF????? WTF kind of parents did she have? people need to start taking responsibility for their actions instead of making pitiful excuses.

but but but then you would be infringing on their "rights" you a$$hole. Mind your own business...damn neocons :frown:

/sarcasm

how am i infringing on their rights, DWW? im telling people to take responsibility for what they've done instead of taking the easy way out. honestly, do you want 8th graders becoming mothers, DWW? at least that girl had the kids, rather than killing them off. just because something is convenient for us doesn't make it right, nor does it make it convenient for others.

Chill man... I put /sarcasm meaning I was joking around Some people actually do think that way though.

 

[Ynog]

I find this debate funny. Always have.

Lets me just clarify something if you believe there are cases for a woman to have an aborition then your pro-chioce not pro-life.
And I think its ludacris if you think you can draw out cases when its ok to. For pregnancies that could harm the mother, at
what chance of harm is ok to abort, If there is only a 25% chance of harm? 50? Pregnancy is inherently dangerous for the
mother. Oh and I always love the server disablility child argument. Thats always a chance too. Chance you child might
have a severe disablity. So its ok if the child will be a disabliity burden to the mother/family, then its ok. Come on why should be
able to cope out of responsiblity there. Some times your dealt a bad hand. What point is a child disabled enough to be abortable.
Another one why should a fetus of a rape have any less rights than a child of a non-rape. Either you believe the fetus has rights
or it doesn't. You can always put that child up for adoption.

When you start saying it ok now but not then you start down a slippery slope of when its ok and not ok.

I respect pro-lifers and I respect pro-choice but its one other the other. Your pro-choice or pro-life, not half and half

 

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Abortion is killing a life. That is undeniable. The only question is what rights that life has..which devolves into when you can classify that life as human. Pro-choice people will attempt to DEhumanize the unborn child in an attempt to bolster their contention.

There was another group of people in Germany some decades ago who were similarly dehumanized to justify their torture and murder. If you're pro-choice and making the argument that an unborn child is not classified as human, then stop for a second and look at who you're in bed with.

And what's the WORST possible scenario for being forced to carry the baby to birth?

1. You place the child up for adoption. OMFG NOOOOO!O!!!!!!!!! TEH HORROR!!!!!!!
2. You raise the child and, darn, can't stay out late clubbing any more. OMFG NOOOEOEOOEEOO!!!!!

And what's the WORST possible scenario for having abortion?

1. Knowing for the rest of your life that you partook in the slaughter of a helpless child who was depending on you, above all others, to protect and nurture it. I'm sure the arguments about biological dependency will make you feel fine about it, though. :roll:

And you fence-riders need to grow some backbone.

Yes great argument, pro-lifers are like nazis. :roll:

Who are you to say what is a best and worst case scenario? Do you have any clue the hardships just being pregnant takes on the mother and the family?

 

[fredtam]

You are enslaving the woman to protect another's rights. And the sad part is, you are doing so because you don't approve of her personal decisions.

I am enslaved by the decisions I made when I was younger. I deal with it.

A fetus is a being BIOLOGICALLY dependent on another human being. It's rights cannot supercede another's.

My daughter is five. She is very much dependent on me and her rights definately supercede mine. It is becoming a cramp in my lifestyle. Should I just shoot her?

 

[Fenixgoon]

oh sorry ddw... i saw the /sarcasm but not the <sarcasm>

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Legendary

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Chelsey
In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place.

would jabbing a sharp object through your skull and into your brain be painless? that's one of the ways it works. since the brain is the center of the nervous system, you bet that that sharp object (scissors, knife, etc.) is felt.

don't know how many people saw my post above, so i'll recap in a nutshell:

parents need to parent, damnit, and teach their kids some fvcking responsibility

The brain is incapable of feeling pain - there are no nerve endings.

Look at it this way - a woman has a digestive parasite - it is eating her food, taking her nutrients, and getting larger by the day. It is not cellularly complex. It is causing health problems. Does the woman have a right to get rid of that parasite?
Now change the word parasite to prebirth baby. Not cellularly complex? Think first/second trimester. I'm not saying babies themselves are parasites, but before they are born their actions are very similar to parasites. The truth is babies, before they are born, infringe on the rights of the mothers. If the mother does not agree with this, then she has the right to do something about it.

This is an extreme analogy (by far) but that's the argument of some pro-lifers. Personally I think the gov't should stay the F out of people's business and that's why I'm pro-life.

since when were children parasites? and how does a child infringe on her rights? she had the right to choose whether she had sex or not, and now she must face the consequences. she must carry the child to birth because that child has a right to life as much as she does. in cases of child birth endangering the mother, the most prudent choice for both the mother and child must be made (and that may indeed involve sacrificing one to save the other )

 

[Legendary]

To all of you who say that life begins at conception (a small mass of indistinguishable (stem) cells) - do you ever itch yourself? Do you know how many cells die when you itch your skin? More than a newly (literally new) zygote has.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Legendary
To all of you who say that life begins at conception (a small mass of indistinguishable (stem) cells) - do you ever itch yourself? Do you know how many cells die when you itch your skin? More than a newly (literally new) zygote has.

those skin cells do not yield a new human being, do they? IIRC, no they don't. the zygote, OTOH, does (imagine that!)

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: Chelsey
I am sittin on the fence with this one. I think that abortion should be legal because it will still go on regardless. If it's done in an alley there will be all kinds of infections and deaths that occur, and it will be done in a "less humane fashion" if there is such a thing. The people performing the abortions will probably not have a whole lot of medical experience/knowledge, so the babies will be mutilated(worse than they already are) and all kinds of horrible things will happen to them. In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place. I haven't done a whole lot of research on the whole abortion process, but this is what I'm *hoping* takes place.

While I do agree with abortion being legal, I think that the mothers of the babies should STRONGLY consider adoption before abortion. Once again, there are certain cases where abortion is necessary (baby will die anyway or will have no quality of life). In those cases the baby should be eliminated humanely. Things should be quick and painless for the child.

I will not have an abortion myself unless it is absolutely necessary, but I will not condone the people who DO have abortions.

*pulls up lawn chair and candy*

abortion facts

The preferred choice... They give women drugs to kill the baby and put her in labor.

Alternatively... A suction tube is used, about the size of a straw that sucks the living baby and tears it out of the uterus. Then they scrape the uterus to make sure they got all the pieces. There are rumors that there is a screw like attachment on the end of it, so it can grind the baby into smaller pieces while it gets sucked down the tube. Since I have only ever seen this on strong anti abortion sites, I will refrain from saying whether or not I believe it.

In later term abortions, they somtimes inject salt solutions into the uterus and cause birth of a still born.

In most partial birth abortions, The woman goes into labor and is giving birth and they crack the skull and suck out the brains before the head comes out. Thus, the baby is born dead and it is not murder.

IMHO, it should be considered a sad thing to do, legal or not, necessary or not.

 

[Legendary]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Legendary

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Chelsey
In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place.

would jabbing a sharp object through your skull and into your brain be painless? that's one of the ways it works. since the brain is the center of the nervous system, you bet that that sharp object (scissors, knife, etc.) is felt.

don't know how many people saw my post above, so i'll recap in a nutshell:

parents need to parent, damnit, and teach their kids some fvcking responsibility

The brain is incapable of feeling pain - there are no nerve endings.

Look at it this way - a woman has a digestive parasite - it is eating her food, taking her nutrients, and getting larger by the day. It is not cellularly complex. It is causing health problems. Does the woman have a right to get rid of that parasite?
Now change the word parasite to prebirth baby. Not cellularly complex? Think first/second trimester. I'm not saying babies themselves are parasites, but before they are born their actions are very similar to parasites. The truth is babies, before they are born, infringe on the rights of the mothers. If the mother does not agree with this, then she has the right to do something about it.

This is an extreme analogy (by far) but that's the argument of some pro-lifers. Personally I think the gov't should stay the F out of people's business and that's why I'm pro-life.

since when were children parasites? and how does a child infringe on her rights? she had the right to choose whether she had sex or not, and now she must face the consequences. she must carry the child to birth because that child has a right to life as much as she does. in cases of child birth endangering the mother, the most prudent choice for both the mother and child must be made (and that may indeed involve sacrificing one to save the other )

I'm not saying children ARE parasites, just that they are similar in some ways to the parasites you and I studied in biology back in school.
The question of whether the child has the same right to life as the mother is the real question about abortion. Some people think they do, some think they don't. Then there are always special cases, like endangering the life of the mother etc. etc. I think we as a public should just stay out of it.
And whoever equated abortions to Nazism, :roll: nice one.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: Legendary

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Legendary

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Chelsey
In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place.

would jabbing a sharp object through your skull and into your brain be painless? that's one of the ways it works. since the brain is the center of the nervous system, you bet that that sharp object (scissors, knife, etc.) is felt.

don't know how many people saw my post above, so i'll recap in a nutshell:

parents need to parent, damnit, and teach their kids some fvcking responsibility

The brain is incapable of feeling pain - there are no nerve endings.

Look at it this way - a woman has a digestive parasite - it is eating her food, taking her nutrients, and getting larger by the day. It is not cellularly complex. It is causing health problems. Does the woman have a right to get rid of that parasite?
Now change the word parasite to prebirth baby. Not cellularly complex? Think first/second trimester. I'm not saying babies themselves are parasites, but before they are born their actions are very similar to parasites. The truth is babies, before they are born, infringe on the rights of the mothers. If the mother does not agree with this, then she has the right to do something about it.

This is an extreme analogy (by far) but that's the argument of some pro-lifers. Personally I think the gov't should stay the F out of people's business and that's why I'm pro-life.

since when were children parasites? and how does a child infringe on her rights? she had the right to choose whether she had sex or not, and now she must face the consequences. she must carry the child to birth because that child has a right to life as much as she does. in cases of child birth endangering the mother, the most prudent choice for both the mother and child must be made (and that may indeed involve sacrificing one to save the other )

I'm not saying children ARE parasites, just that they are similar in some ways to the parasites you and I studied in biology back in school.
The question of whether the child has the same right to life as the mother is the real question about abortion. Some people think they do, some think they don't. Then there are always special cases, like endangering the life of the mother etc. etc. I think we as a public should just stay out of it.
And whoever equated abortions to Nazism, :roll: nice one.

Look up what the word "parasite" means - by your definition, I should excise my muscles, because they are a "liability" to me, since they take up valuable metabolic resources. :roll:

 

[Legendary]

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: Legendary

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Legendary

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Chelsey
In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place.

would jabbing a sharp object through your skull and into your brain be painless? that's one of the ways it works. since the brain is the center of the nervous system, you bet that that sharp object (scissors, knife, etc.) is felt.

don't know how many people saw my post above, so i'll recap in a nutshell:

parents need to parent, damnit, and teach their kids some fvcking responsibility

The brain is incapable of feeling pain - there are no nerve endings.

Look at it this way - a woman has a digestive parasite - it is eating her food, taking her nutrients, and getting larger by the day. It is not cellularly complex. It is causing health problems. Does the woman have a right to get rid of that parasite?
Now change the word parasite to prebirth baby. Not cellularly complex? Think first/second trimester. I'm not saying babies themselves are parasites, but before they are born their actions are very similar to parasites. The truth is babies, before they are born, infringe on the rights of the mothers. If the mother does not agree with this, then she has the right to do something about it.

This is an extreme analogy (by far) but that's the argument of some pro-lifers. Personally I think the gov't should stay the F out of people's business and that's why I'm pro-life.

since when were children parasites? and how does a child infringe on her rights? she had the right to choose whether she had sex or not, and now she must face the consequences. she must carry the child to birth because that child has a right to life as much as she does. in cases of child birth endangering the mother, the most prudent choice for both the mother and child must be made (and that may indeed involve sacrificing one to save the other )

I'm not saying children ARE parasites, just that they are similar in some ways to the parasites you and I studied in biology back in school.
The question of whether the child has the same right to life as the mother is the real question about abortion. Some people think they do, some think they don't. Then there are always special cases, like endangering the life of the mother etc. etc. I think we as a public should just stay out of it.
And whoever equated abortions to Nazism, :roll: nice one.

Look up what the word "parasite" means - by your definition, I should excise my muscles, because they are a "liability" to me, since they take up valuable metabolic resources. :roll:

No, in that case the muscles are symbiotic. Your muscles actually give something back to you in exchange for all the resources they use.

Edit: sym·bi·o·sis ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smb-ss, -b-)
n. pl. sym·bi·o·ses (-sz)
Biology. A close, prolonged association between two or more different organisms of different species that may, but does not necessarily, benefit each member.
A relationship of mutual benefit or dependence.

par·a·site ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.
A professional dinner guest, especially in ancient Greece.

 

[SuperTool]

Like it or not, women have the choice, and the advise columnist is just pointing that out. If you don't like it, tough.

 

[imported_KirbsAw]

I think my computer just burst into flames. Did I click P&amp;N by mistake?

 

[pulse8]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Abortion is killing a life. That is undeniable. The only question is what rights that life has..which devolves into when you can classify that life as human. Pro-choice people will attempt to DEhumanize the unborn child in an attempt to bolster their contention.

There was another group of people in Germany some decades ago who were similarly dehumanized to justify their torture and murder. If you're pro-choice and making the argument that an unborn child is not classified as human, then stop for a second and look at who you're in bed with.

And what's the WORST possible scenario for being forced to carry the baby to birth?

1. You place the child up for adoption. OMFG NOOOOO!O!!!!!!!!! TEH HORROR!!!!!!!
2. You raise the child and, darn, can't stay out late clubbing any more. OMFG NOOOEOEOOEEOO!!!!!

And what's the WORST possible scenario for having abortion?

1. Knowing for the rest of your life that you partook in the slaughter of a helpless child who was depending on you, above all others, to protect and nurture it. I'm sure the arguments about biological dependency will make you feel fine about it, though. :roll:

And you fence-riders need to grow some backbone.

Talk about oversimplifying an extremely complex situation.

If you think those are the only worst case scenarios, then you have no idea what you're talking about.

It's not just about how the child affects your life, but how you affect the child's life once it's born.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: SampSon
Do you have any clue the hardships just being pregnant takes on the mother and the family?

Hardship? My wife gave birth less than two years ago. I don't remember much hardship other than the actual birth which most women are medicated for. I remember the excitement everytime we got to go to the doctor and hear the heartbeat and see the ultrasounds and feel the kicks though. :shrug; We're planning for another this year, God willing. We're living in a humble house on my income alone which means living pretty meagerly...I wouldn't call that hardship.

I know plenty of single moms and they all manage. They move back in with their parents or have roomates, etc. It's not exactly a living hell. But the fact is, we have it better than many of them, because we both acted responsible. We waited till marriage to have sex and my wife was on the pill for the first couple years while she finished school and we got a house. You see, that's what makes a decision good or bad...the consequences you have to live with (or, rather, SHOULD have to live with in this case).

We made good decisions and we get to live with them. Some people make bad decisions and get to live with them too. Killing somebody to avoid the consequences is selfish and evil...which is why so much guilt stays with the aborter forever. Do you have any idea the hardship that comes with guilt?