Abortion

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan
Most of these things come up after reading the advice columns in my newspaper each morning.

Today there was a young girl (22) who left her boyfriend of 2 years because she cheated on him (he doesn't know this though). She finds out that she is pregnant from the guy that she cheated with. The advice columnist helps her with her different options regarding going back to her old boyfriend, confronting the guy she cheated with, and staying with her father. Then she adds in "if you decide to keep the child..."...

The way I look at abortion is that it should not just be used as a form of birth control. I think that a person should be free to abort a child if it is conceived by means of rape, if there is sufficient evidence that the child will be born with severe illness/defects, or if the pregnancy will pose harm to the mother.

I don't believe that women should be allowed to abort a child on the grounds that they used bad judgement and made a mistake.

What do you guys think of my opinion?

I think your opinion makes slaves of women. I think no one has a right to tell anyone else what they may, and may not do to thier body.

Here's a neat thing to think about:

How about we attach Richard Simmons to your body. To remove him would kill him, but not you. What would you choose to do?

I wouldn't let you attach him in the first place. I don't see how that is even relevant.

As for the other issue, I used to think like you and I was totally for abortion in any case (I am for abortion in a few select cases). Later, I started to realize that everyone in our society cries foul when our rights to "freedom" are encroached on. Your right to freedom doesn't mean that you are free to do whatever you like without any accountability for your actions.

To take things further, a fetus is a human being and as such has all the same rights that you and I have. This would put me in the light of not supporting any abortion (and this is contradictory of my belief), but I also see that a pregnant woman has the right to stop a pregnancy if it will cause harm to herself, if the child will have a severe disability, or if the mother is the victim of rape. In other words I see that the mother has rights that supercede the fetus in these cases.

A fetus is a being BIOLOGICALLY dependent on another human being. It's rights cannot supercede another's.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon
I think people should make their own choices...

I think OREOSpeedwagon is pro-death.

Sounds like it to me.

 

[jmalm]

Choose life.

Your parents did.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon
I think people should make their own choices...

That's what Ted Bundy said.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan
Most of these things come up after reading the advice columns in my newspaper each morning.

Today there was a young girl (22) who left her boyfriend of 2 years because she cheated on him (he doesn't know this though). She finds out that she is pregnant from the guy that she cheated with. The advice columnist helps her with her different options regarding going back to her old boyfriend, confronting the guy she cheated with, and staying with her father. Then she adds in "if you decide to keep the child..."...

The way I look at abortion is that it should not just be used as a form of birth control. I think that a person should be free to abort a child if it is conceived by means of rape, if there is sufficient evidence that the child will be born with severe illness/defects, or if the pregnancy will pose harm to the mother.

I don't believe that women should be allowed to abort a child on the grounds that they used bad judgement and made a mistake.

What do you guys think of my opinion?

I think your opinion makes slaves of women. I think no one has a right to tell anyone else what they may, and may not do to thier body.

Here's a neat thing to think about:

How about we attach Richard Simmons to your body. To remove him would kill him, but not you. What would you choose to do?

I wouldn't let you attach him in the first place. I don't see how that is even relevant.

As for the other issue, I used to think like you and I was totally for abortion in any case (I am for abortion in a few select cases). Later, I started to realize that everyone in our society cries foul when our rights to "freedom" are encroached on. Your right to freedom doesn't mean that you are free to do whatever you like without any accountability for your actions.

To take things further, a fetus is a human being and as such has all the same rights that you and I have. This would put me in the light of not supporting any abortion (and this is contradictory of my belief), but I also see that a pregnant woman has the right to stop a pregnancy if it will cause harm to herself, if the child will have a severe disability, or if the mother is the victim of rape. In other words I see that the mother has rights that supercede the fetus in these cases.

A fetus is a being BIOLOGICALLY dependent on another human being. It's rights cannot supercede another's.

Unless I'm mistaken in my definition, supercede means come before. I said the mothers rights come before the fetus in these circumstances. Not the other way around.

 

[wkabel23]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon
I think people should make their own choices...

That's what Ted Bundy said.

:roll:

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: DWW

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is America. It's not your life, stay out of it.

Devil's Advocate for a pro-lifer: if you were walking down the street and you saw a thug beat down a woman, shoot and kill her--should you stay out of it cause its not your life (this IS America afterall)?

you have a choice whether or not to get involved, this is america

Not speaking legally, why do you support abortion?

From my post above:

At the root of the issue: No one, not even a fetus, has a right to force another person to allow it to be biologically dependant on it. That sacrifices the woman's rights for the fetus.

So instead you sacrifice the fetus's rights for the woman.

I think the right to life outweighs the right to 9 months of comfort.

Nope. Not at all. The fetus rights depend on the woman giving up hers, NOT vice-versa.

Say I attached myself to your body against your will and to remove me would kill me. Would you just suffer and give up your rights? Would you make someone else do the same?

What you say makes slaves of women to appease your moral judgement.

Okay, we'll try this one more time.

The fetus has rights as a human being. Natural rights defined by Locke include Life.
The mother has these same rights to Life, Liberty, and Property, so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others (as defined by "freedom").
The mother denies that fetus of its right to Life if she aborts it. This right to Life outweighs the woman's right to the Liberty of not having a child. She chose to have sex (notice, I said I'm okay with abortions due to rape), and must face the consequences of her actions (whether or not she was using BC or condoms doesn't matter).

Detaching someone from my body, assuming it would kill them, would be against that person's rights. My right to live without you on me is outweighed by your right to live, even though I didn't choose to have you on me.

These rights work like Asimov's Three Laws: They are a hierarchy, with each successive right being less important than the previous.
1. Life
2. Liberty
3. Property

Life > Liberty > Property

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Amused
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=17&articleID=0003F387-13E5-1C74-9B81809EC588EF21

An interesting correlation between the legalization of Abortion in '73 and the dramatic drop in crime in the 90s.

I read something like that before. But what I read talked about odd correlations from unrelated events, and people drawing bad conclusions from it.

Still an interesting thought though... so if this is true, and if those women had not aborted and those babies had grown up criminals, then the mothers would had been a bad influence from the start. So the ultimate conclusion is that we should also abort those mothers, because their influence on society in general must be bad. We could setup euthanasia clinics... they think they're getting abortions, but instead they're being put to sleep (painlessly of course). Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[KarenMarie]

I am pro-life AND pro-choice.

I would never, ever kill a child I was carrying. Not ever.

However, I don't think that anyone has a right to tell a woman that she must carry to term.

I also think, however, that abortions are WAY to easy to get and the right is often abused. When Iw as younger, an abortion was a shameful thing. And, I remember... when I lived in England... a woman had to get two doctors to sign off before a woman could abort. Sure, it was just a formality, but it was better, in my opinion, than just having the baby sucked down a tube without thinking.

I think there should be a couneling session (at least one) before an abortion is preformed. I think that all options should be discussed. I think it is disgustiing that anyone under the age of 18 is allowed to go and get abortions without parental, (or other adult) supervision. I think partial birth abortions are barbaric, and unless the life of the mother is in immediate danger, they should be banned.

We can argue about when life begins from now until the Second Coming. We all have our personal opinions on that and on whether abortions should be legal. I think it is not so black and white. I have miscarried, more than once, and can honestly say that early first trimester and late second trimester pregnancies are not even close to being the same. Again, partial birth abortions, imho, are akin to murder and there needs to be a damn good reason for one.

Perhaps, if we spent more time teaching kids the value of life and how to act more responsibity... And not use abortion as a form of birth control, there would be less need for abortions. But while mistakes do happen... and mistakes that should not 'ruin' the life of the parents and child... if it is not so easy to just dispose of the baby... ie; better choices to begin with, and counseling if there is an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy, we might not have millions of abortions per year.

but again, I do not think that anyone else has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body. And although I am pro-life, i am also pro-choice.



edit: I do find it ironic, however, that if the mother is driving to the abortion clinic to kill the baby, and gets in a car accident that kills the baby, the other driver can be charged with murder.

 

[Fenixgoon]

here's a good thought for everyone.. why dont we teach the damn kids to be more responsible so they dont go around fvcking everyone else. i know where i live it's bad (probably not as bad as inner city) but there's an 8th grade girl with 3 kids of her own. my response to that is WTF????? WTF kind of parents did she have? people need to start taking responsibility for their actions instead of making pitiful excuses.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: DWW

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is America. It's not your life, stay out of it.

Devil's Advocate for a pro-lifer: if you were walking down the street and you saw a thug beat down a woman, shoot and kill her--should you stay out of it cause its not your life (this IS America afterall)?

you have a choice whether or not to get involved, this is america

Not speaking legally, why do you support abortion?

From my post above:

At the root of the issue: No one, not even a fetus, has a right to force another person to allow it to be biologically dependant on it. That sacrifices the woman's rights for the fetus.

So instead you sacrifice the fetus's rights for the woman.

I think the right to life outweighs the right to 9 months of comfort.

Nope. Not at all. The fetus rights depend on the woman giving up hers, NOT vice-versa.

Say I attached myself to your body against your will and to remove me would kill me. Would you just suffer and give up your rights? Would you make someone else do the same?

What you say makes slaves of women to appease your moral judgement.

Okay, we'll try this one more time.

The fetus has rights as a human being. Natural rights defined by Locke include Life.
The mother has these same rights to Life, Liberty, and Property, so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others (as defined by "freedom").
The mother denies that fetus of its right to Life if she aborts it. This right to Life outweighs the woman's right to the Liberty of not having a child. She chose to have sex (notice, I said I'm okay with abortions due to rape), and must face the consequences of her actions (whether or not she was using BC or condoms doesn't matter).

Detaching someone from my body, assuming it would kill them, would be against that person's rights. My right to live without you on me is outweighed by your right to live, even though I didn't choose to have you on me.

These rights work like Asimov's Three Laws: They are a hierarchy, with each successive right being less important than the previous.
1. Life
2. Liberty
3. Property

Life > Liberty > Property

But you forget that no man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as the right to enslave.

You are enslaving the woman to protect another's rights. And the sad part is, you are doing so because you don't approve of her personal decisions.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Stefan
Most of these things come up after reading the advice columns in my newspaper each morning.

Today there was a young girl (22) who left her boyfriend of 2 years because she cheated on him (he doesn't know this though). She finds out that she is pregnant from the guy that she cheated with. The advice columnist helps her with her different options regarding going back to her old boyfriend, confronting the guy she cheated with, and staying with her father. Then she adds in "if you decide to keep the child..."...

The way I look at abortion is that it should not just be used as a form of birth control. I think that a person should be free to abort a child if it is conceived by means of rape, if there is sufficient evidence that the child will be born with severe illness/defects, or if the pregnancy will pose harm to the mother.

I don't believe that women should be allowed to abort a child on the grounds that they used bad judgement and made a mistake.

What do you guys think of my opinion?

I think your opinion makes slaves of women. I think no one has a right to tell anyone else what they may, and may not do to thier body.

Here's a neat thing to think about:

How about we attach Richard Simmons to your body. To remove him would kill him, but not you. What would you choose to do?

I wouldn't let you attach him in the first place. I don't see how that is even relevant.

As for the other issue, I used to think like you and I was totally for abortion in any case (I am for abortion in a few select cases). Later, I started to realize that everyone in our society cries foul when our rights to "freedom" are encroached on. Your right to freedom doesn't mean that you are free to do whatever you like without any accountability for your actions.

To take things further, a fetus is a human being and as such has all the same rights that you and I have. This would put me in the light of not supporting any abortion (and this is contradictory of my belief), but I also see that a pregnant woman has the right to stop a pregnancy if it will cause harm to herself, if the child will have a severe disability, or if the mother is the victim of rape. In other words I see that the mother has rights that supercede the fetus in these cases.

A fetus is a being BIOLOGICALLY dependent on another human being. It's rights cannot supercede another's.

Unless I'm mistaken in my definition, supercede means come before. I said the mothers rights come before the fetus in these circumstances. Not the other way around.

And I say the mother's rights ALWAYS supercede the fetus' rights.

 

The mother should have full control of her body and what is inside of it.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: DWW

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is America. It's not your life, stay out of it.

Devil's Advocate for a pro-lifer: if you were walking down the street and you saw a thug beat down a woman, shoot and kill her--should you stay out of it cause its not your life (this IS America afterall)?

you have a choice whether or not to get involved, this is america

Not speaking legally, why do you support abortion?

From my post above:

At the root of the issue: No one, not even a fetus, has a right to force another person to allow it to be biologically dependant on it. That sacrifices the woman's rights for the fetus.

So instead you sacrifice the fetus's rights for the woman.

I think the right to life outweighs the right to 9 months of comfort.

Nope. Not at all. The fetus rights depend on the woman giving up hers, NOT vice-versa.

Say I attached myself to your body against your will and to remove me would kill me. Would you just suffer and give up your rights? Would you make someone else do the same?

What you say makes slaves of women to appease your moral judgement.

Okay, we'll try this one more time.

The fetus has rights as a human being. Natural rights defined by Locke include Life.
The mother has these same rights to Life, Liberty, and Property, so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others (as defined by "freedom").
The mother denies that fetus of its right to Life if she aborts it. This right to Life outweighs the woman's right to the Liberty of not having a child. She chose to have sex (notice, I said I'm okay with abortions due to rape), and must face the consequences of her actions (whether or not she was using BC or condoms doesn't matter).

Detaching someone from my body, assuming it would kill them, would be against that person's rights. My right to live without you on me is outweighed by your right to live, even though I didn't choose to have you on me.

These rights work like Asimov's Three Laws: They are a hierarchy, with each successive right being less important than the previous.
1. Life
2. Liberty
3. Property

Life > Liberty > Property

But you forget that no man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as the right to enslave.

You are enslaving the woman to protect another's rights. And the sad part is, you are doing so because you don't approve of her personal decisions.

You are usurping the right to life of another to guard against enslavement of the mother. Which is worse?

 

[ViRGE]

Do us all a favor, and get your ass in P&N. OT is for Off Topic, P&N is for politics.

 

[Chelsey]

I am sittin on the fence with this one. I think that abortion should be legal because it will still go on regardless. If it's done in an alley there will be all kinds of infections and deaths that occur, and it will be done in a "less humane fashion" if there is such a thing. The people performing the abortions will probably not have a whole lot of medical experience/knowledge, so the babies will be mutilated(worse than they already are) and all kinds of horrible things will happen to them. In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place. I haven't done a whole lot of research on the whole abortion process, but this is what I'm *hoping* takes place.

While I do agree with abortion being legal, I think that the mothers of the babies should STRONGLY consider adoption before abortion. Once again, there are certain cases where abortion is necessary (baby will die anyway or will have no quality of life). In those cases the baby should be eliminated humanely. Things should be quick and painless for the child.

I will not have an abortion myself unless it is absolutely necessary, but I will not condone the people who DO have abortions.

*pulls up lawn chair and candy*

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon
I think people should make their own choices...

You can't possibly think that is correct. If people made their own choices, there would be chaos. People would leave their newborns in dumpsters at proms, without any recourse. There has to be anti-abortion laws... but who draws the lines that will be followed by all?

It's a tough call.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: DWW

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is America. It's not your life, stay out of it.

Devil's Advocate for a pro-lifer: if you were walking down the street and you saw a thug beat down a woman, shoot and kill her--should you stay out of it cause its not your life (this IS America afterall)?

you have a choice whether or not to get involved, this is america

Not speaking legally, why do you support abortion?

From my post above:

At the root of the issue: No one, not even a fetus, has a right to force another person to allow it to be biologically dependant on it. That sacrifices the woman's rights for the fetus.

So instead you sacrifice the fetus's rights for the woman.

I think the right to life outweighs the right to 9 months of comfort.

Nope. Not at all. The fetus rights depend on the woman giving up hers, NOT vice-versa.

Say I attached myself to your body against your will and to remove me would kill me. Would you just suffer and give up your rights? Would you make someone else do the same?

What you say makes slaves of women to appease your moral judgement.

Okay, we'll try this one more time.

The fetus has rights as a human being. Natural rights defined by Locke include Life.
The mother has these same rights to Life, Liberty, and Property, so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others (as defined by "freedom").
The mother denies that fetus of its right to Life if she aborts it. This right to Life outweighs the woman's right to the Liberty of not having a child. She chose to have sex (notice, I said I'm okay with abortions due to rape), and must face the consequences of her actions (whether or not she was using BC or condoms doesn't matter).

Detaching someone from my body, assuming it would kill them, would be against that person's rights. My right to live without you on me is outweighed by your right to live, even though I didn't choose to have you on me.

These rights work like Asimov's Three Laws: They are a hierarchy, with each successive right being less important than the previous.
1. Life
2. Liberty
3. Property

Life > Liberty > Property

But you forget that no man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as the right to enslave.

You are enslaving the woman to protect another's rights. And the sad part is, you are doing so because you don't approve of her personal decisions.

You are usurping the right to life of another to guard against enslavement of the mother. Which is worse?

Enslaving the mother.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Amused
Enslaving the mother.

Why?

 

[fredtam]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am pro choice

Me too. If the kid gets old enough and wants to off himself that is his choice but abortion should not be used as birth control. The mother (barring rape ) already made her choice or more appropriately didn't.

 

[DWW]

edit: I do find it ironic, however, that if the mother is driving to the abortion clinic to kill the baby, and gets in a car accident that kills the baby, the other driver can be charged with murder.

Yeah when reading this thread earlier I thought of something similar. Scott Peterson was charged with double homicide--his wife and his unborn child. How can it be murder one way and not the other? So if the mother wants to bring the baby to term than it is a life but, if not, it isn't a life. That is suggesting right there that killing an unborn is "murder".

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: fredtam

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am pro choice

Me too. If the kid gets old enough and wants to off himself that is his choice but abortion should not be used as birth control. The mother (barring rape ) already made her choice or more appropriately didn't.

So you would be pro-life?

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Chelsey
In a clinical setting the babies are hopefully treated a bit more like people and their life is ended quickly and painlessly before the mutilation takes place.

would jabbing a sharp object through your skull and into your brain be painless? that's one of the ways it works. since the brain is the center of the nervous system, you bet that that sharp object (scissors, knife, etc.) is felt.

don't know how many people saw my post above, so i'll recap in a nutshell:

parents need to parent, damnit, and teach their kids some fvcking responsibility

 

[DWW]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
here's a good thought for everyone.. why dont we teach the damn kids to be more responsible so they dont go around fvcking everyone else. i know where i live it's bad (probably not as bad as inner city) but there's an 8th grade girl with 3 kids of her own. my response to that is WTF????? WTF kind of parents did she have? people need to start taking responsibility for their actions instead of making pitiful excuses.

but but but then you would be infringing on their "rights" you a$$hole. Mind your own business...damn neocons :frown:

/sarcasm

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
Do us all a favor, and get your ass in P&N. OT is for Off Topic, P&N is for politics.

Do us all a favor, and get your ass a dictionary. This is a thread about morality, not legalization and legislation.