A warning against A New American Attack On Iraq

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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For my part I sadly agree with his actions so far. I'd rather not have people like ISIS causing so much grief but here they are and we either let them proceed unimpeded or intercede. We have a short window of opportunity to act because someone will read "drone" and post pictures and write in angst about children being killed by them, and they will. That's why it's sad. People who do not deserve it are killed, which is why I always have regret when action is taken and whatever is done with the minimal force necessary.

I too sadly agree, except I think he should have ordered airstrikes weeks ago, and they should be more extensive now. We made a mess with our unjustified invasion in 2003 and we have a moral obligation to use our air power to help clean it up now.

I can't think of an example which disproves the neo-conservative thesis that we can use our military to create democracies better than this. In 8 years we were unable to oversee the establishment of a stable democracy. We couldn't even train an army capable of fighting off an insurgency. And now the neo-cons are saying the problem is that we pulled out too early. One wonders how much longer we needed to be there to prove this thesis, until our grandchildren retire?

You have a good point about the artificiality of the state of Iraq, that its three ethnic groups will never get along. However, I doubt we could make a democracy out of any of the groups - certainly not the Shia or Sunni - even if each existed in a country without the others. It just isn't in their culture. They'll have to come to it on their own, a long time in the future, if ever.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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I too sadly agree, except I think he should have ordered airstrikes weeks ago, and they should be more extensive now. We made a mess with our unjustified invasion in 2003 and we have a moral obligation to use our air power to help clean it up now.

There's a bit of a balancing act that needs be done. On one hand it's desirable (at least from our common point of view) to take prudent action as fast as possible, but on the other it's vital that we have sufficient understanding of the situation to ensure that the correct measures are taken in the proper order at the right time and place. This has one universal consequence, namely invoking hindsight. I'm not being critical of your statement, so please don't take that as such. I too would have rather acted before but I didn't know as much as I do now, and I doubt that is much different for our government. It is the unfortunate result of imperfect knowledge, something which can never be fully overcome. We're human and therefore imperfect, but we took it upon ourselves as a nation to invade and that carries the moral implicit to help on a continuing basis within limits.

I can't think of an example which disproves the neo-conservative thesis that we can use our military to create democracies better than this. In 8 years we were unable to oversee the establishment of a stable democracy. We couldn't even train an army capable of fighting off an insurgency. And now the neo-cons are saying the problem is that we pulled out too early. One wonders how much longer we needed to be there to prove this thesis, until our grandchildren retire?

People routinely comment on religion being the main reason for wars, but I strongly disagree. It has been true on too many occasions, and religion has been co-opted as an excuse, but IMO the major force for war is unthinking nationalistic pride. Others "deserve" to be just like us, and by our natural inherent qualities we are entitled to enlighten them to our superior ways. Of course if we gain access to inexpensive resources or can force favorable trade, well that's our due. Note that when I use "our" I don't mean the US exclusively, but superior powers throughout history. In our case in recent years we feel that Iraq and other countries are entitled to Democracy and others will naturally adopt our way of thinking. Why would they not? We're obviously better than they are as we measure better . Who defines in absolute terms what "better" means? Those who win by whatever means necessary. It's never from the perspective of other people with other ways.

I think it was incredible to most of the Neocons that the Iraqis did not thank us for making war on them thereby causing upheaval resulting in the loss of uncounted tens of thousands of lives. For others with a less parochial perspective it was no surprise whatsoever. I believe a great blind spot in our collective American culture is the insistence on equating democracy to freedom and these are two things are most certainly NOT the same. Democracy in its best form is an expression of self determination. At it's worst it's window dressing, a mere pretense which in reality offers a Hobson's Choice of selected despots. Freedom though? That's self determination. It's living as one chooses, and if that means regular elections or being more comfortable with traditional tribal structures it's their choice, not ours. Where this becomes problematic is with groups like ISIS who would kill those who don't agree with their "better". There right of self determination means the extermination of all other ways. Of course one can (and should) consider that any of this is my idea of "right and wrong" and what is "better", but one needs a moral compass or one drifts aimlessly. Of the choices which exist I like the exercise of freedom which does not harm others and allows them to live peacefully among themselves even if it's not in a way I would choose.
You have a good point about the artificiality of the state of Iraq, that its three ethnic groups will never get along. However, I doubt we could make a democracy out of any of the groups - certainly not the Shia or Sunni - even if each existed in a country without the others. It just isn't in their culture. They'll have to come to it on their own, a long time in the future, if ever.

There are many good things I wish for people there. A freedom to choose their leaders is one of them, but as I've already said, that is not something I believe I am entitled to force on their way of living, and I believe the world would be a safer and better place if this was a more generally adopted policy of those who have real power.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
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Obviously the majority will never realize the double-standard of two winged leadership (R-D) under the same bird. Can't wait for the pendulum to swing back to a very conservative Repubilican President. Only then will we, once again, hear extreme vocalizations criticizing the heinous actions of this govt.

Like I stated, once you create a problem it's easy to maintain the solution for your own benefit. Until then... take sides and then beat your fucking war drum. Either we're dying or they are.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
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Only a week or so ago he was saying "there is no military solution" and we're not getting involved militarily.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Run a bunch of BUFF's over ISIS non-nuclear and let em go to town.

That would even things out real fast and I wouldn't feel bad at all.

Not gonna happen though.
 

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
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Humanitarian reasons will continue to be used occasionally for military action by the U.S. Like the Balkans war of the early 90's. If it stirs up trouble as in if it leads to Russia, China or other enemy of the U.S. to enter the conflict then that's ok with me. But we can all rest assured that arms from those enemies will make their way to radicals in Iraq. And probably to all sides in the current war there.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,350
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Only a week or so ago he was saying "there is no military solution" and we're not getting involved militarily.

We're giving the minorities time, food/water/air cover needed to flee ISIS.
What Obama is doing is not a "military solution" to ISIS's existence, it's a humanitarian effort for refugees who they are committing genocide against.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
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Or maybe we're just being conditioned for more war, under: a new Adminstration, new rules of engagement and new softer language for the social networking generation? Although the results and major blowback are the same.

I can just hear it now on the street, "Did you read what ISIS said about us on Twitter? I'm going to tweet those muthafuckers back and show them who's boss! Let's get this Iraq war trending. Oh btw, the new TMNT movie is totally outstanding bro; Michael Bay makes some epic films."

The US Has Reluctantly Started Bombing Iraq Again
https://news.vice.com/article/the-us-has-reluctantly-started-bombing-iraq-again

Reluctantly. lol?

Currently in phase two of the Iraq War III and our conditioning. I'll repost back here when it hits phase three. I hope to be wrong.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,448
8,859
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We're giving the minorities time, food/water/air cover needed to flee ISIS.
What Obama is doing is not a "military solution" to ISIS's existence, it's a humanitarian effort for refugees who they are committing genocide against.

We are also giving ISIS folk 500 lb bombs, so you keep saying it ain't a military operation, stupid looks good on you.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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We are also giving ISIS folk 500 lb bombs, so you keep saying it ain't a military operation, stupid looks good on you.

It's a military operation, not a military solution to the problem of ISIS. In this case there's a very real difference.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,448
8,859
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It's a military operation, not a military solution to the problem of ISIS. In this case there's a very real difference.

A very slippery slope.

Nor do military actions make any sense when they are not the solution.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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I too sadly agree, except I think he should have ordered airstrikes weeks ago, and they should be more extensive now. We made a mess with our unjustified invasion in 2003 and we have a moral obligation to use our air power to help clean it up now.

I can't think of an example which disproves the neo-conservative thesis that we can use our military to create democracies better than this. In 8 years we were unable to oversee the establishment of a stable democracy. We couldn't even train an army capable of fighting off an insurgency. And now the neo-cons are saying the problem is that we pulled out too early. One wonders how much longer we needed to be there to prove this thesis, until our grandchildren retire?
It's the second coming all over again. If it hasn't happened yet, that doesn't disprove the thesis. It just means it will take a little longer.

It's always the same with true believers.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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A very slippery slope.

Nor do military actions make any sense when they are not the solution.

Any decision to take action can potentially lead to another so an eye needs to be kept on the situation however I can't agree with the second point. Suppose there is a large organization of terrorists and because of their location and/or how they are spread out or for whatever reason, a military assault on them for the purpose of elimination isn't feasible. That does not in any way mean that we can't use our military resources to assist those who are trapped. We can provide food, we can cover an escape. We can do a great many things to give assistance without another Iraq war, which was a very expensive military action and was not the solution nor could it ever have been. An advantage of having a large and well organized military is that it offers options. This is a well reasoned use of it.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
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130909animal-house-cartoon.jpg


Old. IMHO Still relevant.

Uno
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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We're being prepared, conditioned and basted like a nice Christmas turkey.

This isn't a war. It's a kinetic military action.

U.S. Could Use Ground Troops to Aid Rescue of Iraq Refugees
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/w...oops-to-aid-rescue-of-iraq-refugees.html?_r=0

I suppose my approval is conditional, on a specific mission with a limited scope. Get those people a safe distance from ISIS, back from behind enemy lines - then let less genocidal locals decide how to tend to the refugees.

I'm okay with facilitating their survival for a moment.
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
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I suppose my approval is conditional, on a specific mission with a limited scope. Get those people a safe distance from ISIS, back from behind enemy lines - then let less genocidal locals decide how to tend to the refugees.

I'm okay with facilitating their survival for a moment.

I just hope Obama learns a few lessons from Clinton's Somalian experience... i.e. if we send troops in their they better be damn well supported as ISIS is known to have tanks and as backwater we think these guys are they would love to mow down our soldiers with previously our own tanks...
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
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Wow, the American people were being conditioned for war with not just Iraq, but Syria as well.

Except we're not embarking on a repeat of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan by a horrible President. These are good military actions being placed into motion by a good President. See the difference?
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
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The President that brought you national health care, is now waging war.

He's not sure on what, or why, but he's sure he's doing it.

Waging war.

-John
 
Nov 29, 2006
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Fuck invading it. Lets just kill and conquer like the good ole days. It can be the 2nd America. Or we can make it a penal colony for criminals.

We can rebuild it. Make it stronger, faster..oh you know the rest.
 
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unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
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warcosts.gif


Democratic President orders advisors and air strikes.

Johnson '64. Obama 2014.

They used to say that the central lesson the US learned from the Viet Nam war was that "Military solutions won't solve political problems."

Though now, the lesson seems to have evolved into "What man learns from history is that man does not learn from history."

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army 69-71
 

schmuckley

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2011
2,335
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I do. Iraq was prosperous peaceful largely secular nation in 60s 70s and 80s until we systematically destroyed it. First with proxy war on Iran then bombing and starving Clinton did to Invasion with no rebuilding and destruction of all stable institutions. Our Cowboy gets to retire and ride his bike in Texas. Clinton is able to write books. But Iraq is a disaster which will bite us in the ass for decades. Bank on it.
This is pretty much how it is.
To turn a blind eye now would not be good, though.
It's a big pile of dog-poo.