A warning against A New American Attack On Iraq

[Nebor]

Hey Nebor - 2003 is calling and it wants its Bush/Cheney fear-mongering propaganda back.

This is 2014, where we've learned the lesson of what happens with interfering with Iraq and how many lives were lost because of that (both Iraqi, US and foreign).

We also know that the entire middle east is destabilized in varying ways at any given time. That's just the nature of that beast.

Drone technology has advanced tremendously in the past 10 years. There's no need for conventional US forces on the ground in Iraq in order for us to cripple ISIS operations. Drones from Qatar & Kuwait can blanket the skies with little risk to US assets while Iraqi forces & US SF & OGA forces gather intelligence for targeting.

 

[Orignal Earl]

USA, Syria, and Iran all working together to help Iraq

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/2879ed/syria_pounds_isis_bases_in_coordination_with_iraq/

 

[bshole]

If we get involved it should be a clearly articulated mission with an achievable exit plan. For example, here is a clean easy mission strategy:
1. We will send no troops, only bombs.
2. We will carpet bomb every city in Iraq with a population over 20,0000
3. When we have killed 1 million Iraqis OR inflicted 50 billion in material damage, then we will declare victory and exit.

No open-endeness, just real honesty. It would be a refreshing change!

 

[unokitty]

Obama is one of our smartest presidents so he must know how badly things are going. But he is also one of our most arrogant presidents so it will be especially hard for him to admit that what he’s done before simply isn’t working. How will this conflict resolve itself? Impossible to say but the answer to that question will determine whether U.S. foreign policy becomes more successful–or at any rate less unsuccessful–in the remaining two and a half years of the Obama presidency.

Tell me again, what was the problem that Obama's bombing of Libya solved?

Uno

 

[BoberFett]

True, some Democrats voted for it, after being told a boatload of lies, misinformation and incorrect propaganda by the administration in power at the time.

So you don't think that congress has any responsibility to look at the evidence before voting to go to war? Oh sorry, permit kinetic military action?

"Well, Bush said the moon men were about to attack, and he's the president. He would know."

How about all the Dems and Repubs that voted against it?

Yeah, how about them. Was it 98 out of 100 senators in the Yea column?

 

[ivwshane]

So you don't think that congress has any responsibility to look at the evidence before voting to go to war? Oh sorry, permit kinetic military action?

"Well, Bush said the moon men were about to attack, and he's the president. He would know."



Yeah, how about them. Was it 98 out of 100 senators in the Yea column?

Exactly who do you think congress should be going to to get their intelligence if not the executive branch and it's military officials?



And btw, congress authorized the use of force as a last resort.

 

[bradley]

I oppose direct intervention. You fail to document any desire on the part of the Obama Admin to do so.

And yet it is written. Except this time, we get the (scientifically implausible) frog in the boiling water scenario with a bemusing beginning at 275 troops. I've already jumped out of the escalating pot, and wipe my hands of anything resembling politics or the entire two-party system and clever phrases, such as "kinetic military action."

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

lol...

No. You bank on it. You go ahead and cry at perceived injustices America has carried out.

Move to Cuba.

Enjoy Eutopia.

-John

OOOOOhhhh nice job!

Intellectual laziness much?

 

[bradley]

lol...

No. You bank on it. You go ahead and cry at perceived injustices America has carried out.

Move to Cuba.

Enjoy Eutopia.

-John

I guess that happens in same universe where McCain is the least pussy you'll ever see - Google his 5 years in captivity as a POW - and Truman made that fateful decision to drop Fat Man and Little Boy over Japan.

Since history is written by the victors, we rarely learn of the criticisms about WWII's ultimate end until becoming sentient adults. I hope?! Although at least WWII wasn't completely a phony manufactured war like almost every war since.

Enjoy your wars! (i.e. police action, military kinetic action, profiteering engagement etc.)

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeah, how about them. Was it 98 out of 100 senators in the Yea column?

Incorrect. The Senate vote was 77-23, 21 Dems against. The HOR vote was 297-133, 126 Dems against.

The vote was was staged 1 month before the midterm election, after a year of intense propaganda, much of it about with us or against us terrarist sympathizers. Or have you conveniently forgotten?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

 

[Jhhnn]

And yet it is written. Except this time, we get the (scientifically implausible) frog in the boiling water scenario with a bemusing beginning at 275 troops. I've already jumped out of the escalating pot, and wipe my hands of anything resembling politics or the entire two-party system and clever phrases, such as "kinetic military action."

Fail. Assigning troops to protect the enormous embassy complex is a far cry from intervention. Anybody with a lick of sense knows it.

 

[bradley]

Fail. Assigning troops to protect the enormous embassy complex is a far cry from intervention. Anybody with a lick of sense knows it.

I guess you believe more in 'your side' than I believe in either side. We'll see. Once you create a problem it's easy to maintain the solution for your own benefit.

 

[trenchfoot]

Ummmm... well this very long lengthy thread proves otherwise.

And let us not forget to mention those whoop-ass-direct-hit "Debunker Bombs" Maddow constantly lobbed over the airwaves dead center on those lying fork-tongued talking heads over at FOX.

She may be pro liberal, but her credibility is exponentially higher than those that attempt to drag her down to their level of highly suspect rabble rousing.

 

[Jhhnn]

I guess you believe more in 'your side' than I believe in either side. We'll see. Once you create a problem it's easy to maintain the solution for your own benefit.

Who's this "you" who created the problem, anyway? The Obama admin?

Get real.

 

[bradley]

Fail. Assigning troops to protect the enormous embassy complex is a far cry from intervention. Anybody with a lick of sense knows it.

Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[JEDIYoda]

They are a bit more hardcore than AQ.

just a bit???? Even AQ is afraid of them..lolol

 

[JEDIYoda]

The Muslim world is going through a turmoil similar to what Europe went through in the last century. It will be a long and messy process, resulting in much human suffering (as is already the case), but hopefully something good will come out of it eventually.

But sadly the results will not be the same......

 

[Fanatical Meat]

While I understand the need to do something, I don't know what. Iraqi leaders don't appear to be very successful at motivating people to defend the homeland and are generally happy putting the other two groups of people down. This shows nobody has any faith in their ability to govern.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Pure projection on your part. I will not support direct military action in Iraq. Right, wrong, or indifferent, our obligations to the current Iraqi govt certainly involve material support, and we need to honor those obligations.

Military aid is not direct intervention. Bombing and drone strikes are direct intervention.

I oppose direct intervention. You fail to document any desire on the part of the Obama Admin to do so.

I wonder how you will spin your declarative statements.

By your words you must condemn Obama. You left no room for uncertainty in your position. See how unwise it is to make public statements of what you will and will not support? If I have a criticism of Obama in this context is that he does paint that "red line" too often. Better to say little or nothing and not give your opponents (no not the Republicans) room to maneuver and goad or otherwise force or limit options. Still, he isn't sending in boots at least at this time, and things would have to be much much worse for me to support that action. Nationalistic vanity would not be sufficient.

For my part I sadly agree with his actions so far. I'd rather not have people like ISIS causing so much grief but here they are and we either let them proceed unimpeded or intercede. We have a short window of opportunity to act because someone will read "drone" and post pictures and write in angst about children being killed by them, and they will. That's why it's sad. People who do not deserve it are killed, which is why I always have regret when action is taken and whatever is done with the minimal force necessary.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

While I understand the need to do something, I don't know what. Iraqi leaders don't appear to be very successful at motivating people to defend the homeland and are generally happy putting the other two groups of people down. This shows nobody has any faith in their ability to govern.

There isn't an Iraq in a cohesive sense. Part of the aftermath of WWI was to create a destabilized Middle East, but then hold it together by brute force by the installation of puppet tyrants and an emphasis on those who had aspirations of control through their religion. That way we could do with them what we liked and get their oil and not have to worry about the natives wanting proper compensation. When Iran dared to elect a representative who would undo that, Churchill convinced the US to aid in the overthrow of the elected government and reinstall their puppets. It's interesting that the operation (known as "Ajax" in the US) was "Operation Boot" to the British, which should have been rather chilling considering what had happened in the UK just ten years prior. Crushed under the heel. Nice. But I digress. Iraq, as a cobbled together nation, cannot be governed as a single entity because the three constituent social groups- Sunni, Shia and Kurd, have no natural affection or affiliation. At best they might tolerate each other, but normally Shia and Sunni are antagonistic, and the Kurds? Sticking them with the other two would be like taking China and Japan, ordering them to be one nation, then picking Texas to be part of the mess. It makes no sense at all to try to force what no one there wanted to begin with. "Play nice together" but keep the same national boundaries which were set up to prevent just that won't work. I think we need to help conditionally and with restraint, but not for the purpose of an unstable and unwanted status quo. That's why we are in the situation we find ourselves to begin with.

 

[Jaskalas]

We can go back in tomorrow.

It wasn't very hard the first time.

-John

And target who? Soon as we go in the terrorists lay low. Remember? Iraq was quite calm as we marched in. No one is going to directly oppose the American military - instead they'd continue sniping at us as they were doing while we were there.

You want another 5,000 dead, 32,000 wounded? WTF are you buying for that cost?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Guess it's time to bring back the draft, anyone 35 and under will be eligible. Those with 3 or more tours in Iraq/Afghanistan will be exempt.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Guess it's time to bring back the draft, anyone 35 and under will be eligible. Those with 3 or more tours in Iraq/Afghanistan will be exempt.

I think that's not a good idea. A ready made force for political purposes? It wouldn't be billed as such but it's too great a temptation. Ask yourself this- how many military actions have we been involved in at need or for a legitimate non nationalistic purpose? I'd say too many. We need to make such actions difficult, not the reverse.

 

[Oric]

The US bombing of insignificant ISIS positions adds to delusion of their fighters and sympathisers that they are in war with the West, not created and finance by. It is more of a recruitment advertisement for anti-western Muslim young to join ISIS.
Secondly it is a strong message to the Kurds lest they forget the only real friend they have is US - friendship with Turkey doesn't save. Thirdly it is also an ultimatum to Turkey that further military decisions will be taken unilaterally by US and there is no need to even consult them. The kidnapped officers are their own problem.
Fourthly this bombing and recent disclosure of a Kuwaiti financier are messages to ISIS top rank that scenes on western media with non-Muslims is not acceptable and while they can crush any Kurd outside the zone, driving in the Kurdish autonomous region borders will not be allowed.
The artificial and genetically engineered caliphate is one of the cleverest recent projects of the West, and is likely to be the brainchild of the mysterious man in CIA in charge of the war on Islam, who is himself a self-declared convert to Islam. ISIS project is here to stay and can be inflated into a global Islamic state fully controlled by the West.
While Muslims of all creeds and lifestyles, from Bosnia, Turkey, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt, Indonesia, Senegal or Uzbekistan, do not see that that the only way for them to survive is to cooperate, stick together and build a tolerant and moderate Islamic union similar to the EU, the men in charge of crushing them already see if that may become real and synthesise their own violent robot, call it the Islamic State, and destroy the Islamic world physically and spiritually from within.

 

[yllus]

I think that's not a good idea. A ready made force for political purposes? It wouldn't be billed as such but it's too great a temptation. Ask yourself this- how many military actions have we been involved in at need or for a legitimate non nationalistic purpose? I'd say too many. We need to make such actions difficult, not the reverse.

If anything, you folks should go in the opposite direction - take it a step further from just having a volunteer army and allow soldiers to opt in or out of individual deployments. The truest of votes on whether the country considers a mission important!

That said, if I recall voting patterns for your last few elections correctly, members of your military hugely for fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Canada... They've voted themselves into wars (or at least prolonged them).