A sample of how 'hard' teachers have it

[ProfJohn]

Only one type of intelligence. Having charisma and the ability to bullshit people is a type of intelligence that can't be measured with a paper and pencil. Woz and Jobs were the founders of Apple computers. Woz had the paper and pencil skills, Jobs has the bullshitter skills. Arguably, Jobs is the reason the company took off and became worth millions in just a few years.

Jobs also has a brilliant ability to know what people want.

Look at the amount of crappy products on the market that make you go "what were they thinking..." you haven't really seen that from Apple as long as Jobs was in charge.

 

[theeedude]

Here is a copy of a union contract for the South Milwaukee school district.

Everything in bold is my comments.


http://www.publicschoolspending.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/South-Milwaukee-Sch-Dist-2009.pdf

High School Middle School Elementary Schools
7:30 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. (includes a thirty (30) minute duty- free lunch period)

7 hour work day

A full-time classroom teacher in the district has 320-330 minutes of student- assignable time per day.

5.5 hours a day in front of students

Full-time teachers at the 6-12 level shall not have more than five (5) instructional classes per day and not more than 1350 minutes of instructional time per week. This language allows the option of mutually agreeable overload assignments and pay.

22.5 hours a week and if you do more you get paid more.

Professional staff who are absent from work because of illness or other disabilities will be compensated at full pro-rated contractual pay level at the rate of twelve (12) personal sick leave days per year, cumulative to one hundred (100) days.

12 sick days in a 9 month period...

The calendar will have one hundred eighty (180) session days. Session days are those days the school is occupied by both students and teachers. Up to three (3) scheduled parent/teacher conference days may be included in the one hundred eighty (180) session days .

They actually have 187 days of work a year after workshop days and parent conferences etc

And for all this suffering they are paid a starting pay of $38k for a BA degree up to $46k after 5 years and top out at $50k after 9. A masters is worth as much as $10k depending on years worked.

I should have gone into teaching...

You really have nothing better to do than teacher-bashing? $38K for a BA degree, I am sure top talent is just lining up to teach our kids.

 

[ProfJohn]

That's interesting, admin jobs in my district are 12 month and assistant principals start out at around $65,000 to $75,000 depending on experience and education.

Other people posting about teachers making $100,000 or $142,000 just blows my mind. A teacher with a doctorate and 30 years tops out at $75,000 in my district. Crazy.

That was Chicago (I think) and he inflated his pay in his last year or two to inflate his pension.

Most likely did a bunch of extra stuff that they get paid to do like clubs and sports. Summer school perhaps.

Same as the cops and firemen who work tons of overtime right before they retire to spike their pensions. In most places it is illegal, but not in Illinois.

 

[ProfJohn]

Can we pay Wall Street barons what they are worth after they tanked the economy?

Why do you guys keep making the false analogy between private employees and teachers?

The Wall Street barons are paid for by private companies. They set the pay rates and the money comes from their pockets. If they are getting screwed then they go out of business.

The money to pay teachers comes from the back pockets of tax payers. When the teachers fail the school district doesn't go out of business. Instead they ask for more money to solve their problems.

 

[Nebor]

You really have nothing better to do than teacher-bashing? $38K for a BA degree, I am sure top talent is just lining up to teach our kids.

Having kids is a sucker's investment anyway.

 

[ShawnD1]

EDIT: I'll amend my post for clarity. I do believe thrift savings, 401s, etc are a better model than the old style pension and would not be opposed to their introduction in these areas.

That's what the right wants. The unions fight hard against the idea of 401k because 401k sucks balls compared to what they currently have. If I had a choice, I would definitely take the defined benefit plan.

 

[ProfJohn]

Why can't you give me a round figure? Look at my experience, education, and what I do... don't be a coward, how much do YOU think it's worth? Man up.

I can't guess your pay because I don't know what market you live in and what the cost of living and what the demand for teachers is etc etc.

According to a quick google search median income in Arizona is $47k

For teachers starting salary is $30k average is $44k. AND they got a 4.1% pay raise last year (must be nice since many companies are giving out 2-3% raises)

I would say that those salaries are probably fair, maybe a little low. Would have to see what the average person with a BA makes in the state.

And don't forget that on top of that $44k they could be getting another $30k in benefits. Are you getting free healthcare and free retirement?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

ProfJohn, I personally support reasonable cost alignments in the name of fiscal responsibility...but hey...teachers gotta eat too.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Jobs also has a brilliant ability to know what people want.

Look at the amount of crappy products on the market that make you go "what were they thinking..." you haven't really seen that from Apple as long as Jobs was in charge.

Apple has never released anything I wanted. Everything they make is EXACTLY what I do not want. I don't own a single Apple product. I understand most people like their crap, but that's because most people have the comparative IQ of a kumquat.

 

[Ausm]

Why do you guys keep making the false analogy between private employees and teachers?

The Wall Street barons are paid for by private companies. They set the pay rates and the money comes from their pockets. If they are getting screwed then they go out of business.

The money to pay teachers comes from the back pockets of tax payers. When the teachers fail the school district doesn't go out of business. Instead they ask for more money to solve their problems.

So is the Rights hard on over teachers in conjunction with the ultimate dream of privatizing the school systems then?

 

[ShawnD1]

Apple has never released anything I wanted. Everything they make is EXACTLY what I do not want. I don't own a single Apple product. I understand most people like their crap, but that's because most people have the comparative IQ of a kumquat.

My point was that Steve Jobs has social intelligence. He can read people and know exactly what to tell them. Somehow he convinced people to invest in his company even though he was a nobody and his company was operating out of a garage. Intelligence isn't as simple as knowing how to solve an equation. Someone sucking at math and doing bad on an IQ test doesn't automatically mean they are stupid.

And don't forget that on top of that $44k they could be getting another $30k in benefits. Are you getting free healthcare and free retirement?

Maybe not free retirement, but a lot of Americans do have company provided health insurance. That's one of the perks of having a professional job like teaching or engineering. Their pension might be a little over the top but $44k plus health benefits seems like it's on par with what everyone else makes with a 4 year degree and a real job (not just a 4 year degree and working at starbucks).

 

[FDF12389]

How many jobs out there require advanced education just to continue in the profession

Pharmacists
Doctors
Nurses
Accountants
Police Officers
Realtors
Brokers
Home inspectors
Pilots
Air traffic controllers
Auditors
Engineers
Child care professionals
Life Guards

I'm sure I missed a few hundred.

almost always on the worker's dime?

I'd say it's the opposite. In fact I know that the S. Milwaukee district in the OPs example reimburses all required education.

 

[theeedude]

I can't guess your pay because I don't know what market you live in and what the cost of living and what the demand for teachers is etc etc.

According to a quick google search median income in Arizona is $47k

For teachers starting salary is $30k average is $44k. AND they got a 4.1% pay raise last year (must be nice since many companies are giving out 2-3% raises)

I would say that those salaries are probably fair, maybe a little low. Would have to see what the average person with a BA makes in the state.

And don't forget that on top of that $44k they could be getting another $30k in benefits. Are you getting free healthcare and free retirement?

So what? How much in benefits do you get?

 

[ShawnD1]

I'd say it's the opposite. In fact I know that the S. Milwaukee district in the OPs example reimburses all required education.

Most jobs that required constant upgrades will pay for the upgrades. My gf needed some kind of CPR training renewal when she worked at a group home, and the whole thing was covered by the employer. Even the time taking the training was on company time.
When I worked as a chemist, we were all given training on how to properly use fire extinguishers. All on company time.

 

[HomerJS]

Why do you guys keep making the false analogy between private employees and teachers?

The Wall Street barons are paid for by private companies. They set the pay rates and the money comes from their pockets. If they are getting screwed then they go out of business.

The money to pay teachers comes from the back pockets of tax payers. When the teachers fail the school district doesn't go out of business. Instead they ask for more money to solve their problems.

Why does Scott Walker pay his county executives 95K of salary, courtesy of a big fat increase?

 

[ProfJohn]

Apple has never released anything I wanted. Everything they make is EXACTLY what I do not want. I don't own a single Apple product. I understand most people like their crap, but that's because most people have the comparative IQ of a kumquat.

And what YOU want matters because?????

They didn't become one of the most valuable companies in the world because they are putting out crap products that no one wants.


And it is rather arrogant to suggest that because you don't like their products the people that do must be idiots.

3rd highest market share among computer manufactures.
Highest market share among smart phones.
Highest market share among MP3 players.

An awful lot of kumquats in the world it seems...

 

[ProfJohn]

ProfJohn, I personally support reasonable cost alignments in the name of fiscal responsibility...but hey...teachers gotta eat too.

And so do tax payers


And I am not saying to take away their pay, they might even be under paid.

It is their benefits that are the problem as I have pointed out several times.

How many jobs can you work 30 years and then retire at 55 and make half your pay and get medical benefits for the rest of your life?

 

[theeedude]

And so do tax payers


And I am not saying to take away their pay, they might even be under paid.

It is their benefits that are the problem as I have pointed out several times.

How many jobs can you work 30 years and then retire at 55 and make half your pay and get medical benefits for the rest of your life?

Why do you care if their compensation is in benefits or in salary. They give up salary in return for benefits.

 

[ProfJohn]

BTW you guys need to stop looking at just pay rate and look at the COST of employment.

If a private sector employee costs their company $50k a year in pay and benefits they cost their employer $50k for that year and then they are done.

For a teacher it is totally different.

Teacher makes $50k pay + benefits for that one year. And then down the road they retire and cost the school district another $25k a year for every year they are retired.

If a teacher works for 30 years and is retired for 30 years their actual cost to the school district would be closer to 1.5 times their pay and benefits.

That means a teacher making $50k is really costing their school district $75k a year.

And THAT is the problem. It is not what they make, it is what they COST. And their cost is out of whack for the job they do and their qualifications.

 

[ProfJohn]

Why do you care if their compensation is in benefits or in salary. They give up salary in return for benefits.

Bullshit. Stop making that BS argument.

Average teacher in Arizona make $44k
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Arizona-teacher-salary
Average income in Arizona $47k

So the average teacher is making just under the average income despite all the benefits and time off that comes with being a teacher.

Look at the COST of employing a teacher vs the cost of employing someone with similar degrees and experience.

In Milwaukee the average cost of a teacher was expected to be $100k this year.
The median income for the city is only $32k with benefits that comes up to about $50k a year.

So a teacher in Milwaukee costs the tax payers DOUBLE what they cost their private sector employees.

 

[theeedude]

BTW you guys need to stop looking at just pay rate and look at the COST of employment.

If a private sector employee costs their company $50k a year in pay and benefits they cost their employer $50k for that year and then they are done.

For a teacher it is totally different.

Teacher makes $50k pay + benefits for that one year. And then down the road they retire and cost the school district another $25k a year for every year they are retired.

If a teacher works for 30 years and is retired for 30 years their actual cost to the school district would be closer to 1.5 times their pay and benefits.

That means a teacher making $50k is really costing their school district $75k a year.

And THAT is the problem. It is not what they make, it is what they COST. And their cost is out of whack for the job they do and their qualifications.

So what? Why is it a problem. Why do you care if the teacher gets $50K in pay and $25K in benefits or just $75K in pay?

 

[PrinceofWands]

My point was that Steve Jobs has social intelligence. He can read people and know exactly what to tell them. Somehow he convinced people to invest in his company even though he was a nobody and his company was operating out of a garage. Intelligence isn't as simple as knowing how to solve an equation. Someone sucking at math and doing bad on an IQ test doesn't automatically mean they are stupid.

Actually that's exactly what it means by definition. They may have other skills that are just as valuable, but they're still stupid. The problem is that people don't like the stigma of stupidity so they find ways to rationalize it, as we do with all things.

I've studied Sternberg and Gardner and they have some good points. None of it negates the basic fact of raw 'g' however.

 

[theeedude]

Bullshit. Stop making that BS argument.

Average teacher in Arizona make $44k
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Arizona-teacher-salary
Average income in Arizona $47k

So the average teacher is making just under the average income despite all the benefits and time off that comes with being a teacher.

Look at the COST of employing a teacher vs the cost of employing someone with similar degrees and experience.

In Milwaukee the average cost of a teacher was expected to $100k this year.
The median income for the city is only $32k with benefits that comes up to about $50k a year.

So a teacher in Milwaukee costs the tax payers DOUBLE what they cost their private sector employees.

Maybe an average teacher is more valuable to society than an average private sector employee. Just because teachers have high total compensation, it doesn't mean they are overpaid. You don't go around saying, look lawyers/doctors/etc make more than average private sector employees, therefore they are overpaid.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

And so do tax payers

Don't lose sight of the fact that teachers are tax payers too.

And I am not saying to take away their pay, they might even be under paid.

It is their benefits that are the problem as I have pointed out several times.

How many jobs can you work 30 years and then retire at 55 and make half your pay and get medical benefits for the rest of your life?

If that's the typical benefit...then I would agree that they are excessive.

 

[Ausm]

Start a blog and post their home addresses. Problem solved

(idea stolen from a religious pro-life group linked to the murder of several abortion doctors)

:thumbsup::thumbsup: