A sample of how 'hard' teachers have it

[mchammer187]

BTW you guys need to stop looking at just pay rate and look at the COST of employment.

If a private sector employee costs their company $50k a year in pay and benefits they cost their employer $50k for that year and then they are done.

For a teacher it is totally different.

Teacher makes $50k pay + benefits for that one year. And then down the road they retire and cost the school district another $25k a year for every year they are retired.

If a teacher works for 30 years and is retired for 30 years their actual cost to the school district would be closer to 1.5 times their pay and benefits.

That means a teacher making $50k is really costing their school district $75k a year.

And THAT is the problem. It is not what they make, it is what they COST. And their cost is out of whack for the job they do and their qualifications.

I actually agree with your position now that you have articulated it. If you had phrased the title like "teacher compensation packages need reform" or even "teacher benefits are out of control" than at least half of the negative responses would go away. But when you say "a sample of how teachers have it" than it just comes off as arrogant.

 

[cwjerome]

Pharmacists
Doctors
Nurses
Accountants
Police Officers
Realtors
Brokers
Home inspectors
Pilots
Air traffic controllers
Auditors
Engineers
Child care professionals
Life Guards

I'm sure I missed a few hundred.



I'd say it's the opposite. In fact I know that the S. Milwaukee district in the OPs example reimburses all required education.

You mean to tell me that all those jobs require the worker to get 32 college credits or a graduate degree -on top of what they already have- within a certain amount of time just to stay employed or advance the pay ladder? Hell I didn't know life guards even need a degree

Obviously you're just talking about some test type thing that many professions have to take every year or few years for like $100. Apparently you are not understanding the concept.

And you can say whatever you want, but virtually no district in Arizona pays for continuing education, and it's uncommon everywhere. Some districts here and there might contribute, most of those only slightly, but by far the most common practice is districts help by paying the teacher more salary after the number of credits or additional degree are completed.

 

[Fern]

-snip-

Funny....you pay a high school educated mechanic $60 per hour to work on your car but whine like a baby when a college educated (masters degree in many cases) teacher gets paid $35 or more per hour to teach your kids. You, regardless of your sister in law being a teacher, have no fucking idea.

What?

The $60 per hrs is what YOU pay for the service, the mechanic himself gets no where near that amount.

Inappropriate analogy.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Here is a copy of a union contract for the South Milwaukee school district.
-snip-
And for all this suffering they are paid a starting pay of $38k for a BA degree up to $46k after 5 years and top out at $50k after 9. A masters is worth as much as $10k depending on years worked.

I should have gone into teaching...

I think the retirement and HC benefits they receive should be considered,; they are typically substantial.

Fern

 

[Engineer]

What?

The $60 per hrs is what YOU pay for the service, the mechanic himself gets no where near that amount.

Inappropriate analogy.

Fern

So if the local mechanic who runs his own business from his garage charges $60 per hour (which is quite low compared to what full service garages charge), it doesn't make a good analogy?

Why not? You're willing to pay $60 per hour for some institution to fix your car but you are not willing to pay $30+ benefits for people to educate your children?

How about paying an electrician $100 per hour to work on your house?

How about paying a plumber $100 per hour to work on your pipes?

How about paying a lawyer $250 per hour to file a divorce for you?

What's more amazing....every single one of those people above had their lives start out under and were guided by....OMG....teachers.

Appropriate if you ask me and many others. Not to you because you have a hard on for teachers and the unions like PJ and others here.

Even when shown evidence that teachers work just as many hours on average as the regular full time worker, jerks like PJ just dismiss it and go on and on and on. If it's so cushy, some of you fucks should get off your ass and go make the "easy money".

#postingintrollthreadagain

 

[Harvey]

Here is a copy of a union contract for the South Milwaukee school district.

Everything in bold is my comments.

Awww.... PJ -- Do you ever stop posting lies, deceptions, distortions and diversion from the truth?

Thanks for generalizing from one example from one state, instead of looking for comprehensive data.

This info from teacherportal.com tells a very different story. They report starting and average salaries, as well as the ten year average increases, and they are ranked by the salary in the context of a "Salary Comfort Index," which they define:

The Comfort Score examined average salaries (both starting and overall) and compared that to the cost of living. We then ranked each state by this metric to find which states were friendliest to teacher's - from a salary perspective.

The state with the highest Salary Comfort Index is Illinois:

Starting: $37,500
Average: $58,686
10 year increase: 43.4

The lowest is Hawaii:

Starting: $35,816
Average: $49,292
10 year increase: 37.7

You can find stats for the 48 states in between those at the link.

I should have gone into teaching...

NO! You should not! Save our children!

Unlike you, teachers actually provide a service in the public interest, and they assume far greater responsibility for our future than you. AFIC, good teachers are worth far more than what most of them are paid.

But hey -- Thanks for admitting that you're not a teacher so even your user name is a lie. :biggrin:

 

[Fern]

So if the local mechanic who runs his own business from his garage charges $60 per hour (which is quite low compared to what full service garages charge), it doesn't make a good analogy?

No.

Any normal mechanic is gonna have a lot of business expenses to pay if he owns the garage, unlike a teacher who is merely an employee.

Profit is generally no where near what gross revenue (the $60 per hr) is.

You're willing to pay $60 per hour for some institution to fix your car but you are not willing to pay $30+ benefits for people to educate your children?

Now where did I say that?

How about paying an electrician $100 per hour to work on your house?

How about paying a plumber $100 per hour to work on your pipes?

How about paying a lawyer $250 per hour to file a divorce for you?

Not really willing to pay that TBH.

I recently replaced the axle on my car myself. I do my own electrical and plumbing stuff too.

The last time I needed a lawyer I represented my self in court and saved a few $1K's.

I'm not really a good one to be addressing these questions to.

Fern

 

[cwjerome]

I can't guess your pay because I don't know what market you live in and what the cost of living and what the demand for teachers is etc etc.

According to a quick google search median income in Arizona is $47k

For teachers starting salary is $30k average is $44k. AND they got a 4.1% pay raise last year (must be nice since many companies are giving out 2-3% raises)

I would say that those salaries are probably fair, maybe a little low. Would have to see what the average person with a BA makes in the state.

And don't forget that on top of that $44k they could be getting another $30k in benefits. Are you getting free healthcare and free retirement?

I wasn't asking you to guess how much I get paid, I was asking how much do you think I'm worth.

Again: I work 7:30-4:00 in an "inner city" district of 97% Hispanic and 90% free or reduced lunch. I am involved in clubs and sports after school, have to deal with parents in jail, on drugs, etc, and abusive situations are common. Over half are not fluent in academic English. Behavior is sometimes outrageous and/or dangerous. Basically you'd probably shit your pants on the first day as a teacher and never be heard from again. I mentor other teachers and am on a variety of committees. I take work home nearly every day. I am expected to teach history, geography, civics, and economics and create knowledgeable, solid citizens with critical thinking skills. I have a BA and two masters. I have been teaching for 14 years and I work 190 days a year.

Would about $54,000 be ok with you?

I do not think it's especially well paid, but I think it's fair enough. If you think 14 years, 3 degrees, putting up with the BS I have to put up with, and educating the future of America and molding good citizens is not worth $54k, then you're a cheap greedy bastard who needs to check his values and priorities.

Your main problem is you are awkwardly flailing in argument and sending silly messages because you bit off more than you can chew. You need to narrow your focus and make specific arguments on separate issues instead of overly broad rambling about lazy, overpaid teachers. If a district or even a state has a bad policy, go after that instead of launching mindless attacks on teachers and teaching in general.

Teaching SHOULD be a good, respectable, well-paid career. Don't let occasional bad policy (or bad teachers) in different locations lead you to overreact and condemn every teacher. If you think tenure is bad, I'll support you. If you think pensions should be replaced with 401/403 type accounts, I'm with you. If you want to bash teachers -and teaching- as a whole, call us lazy and overpaid, then I'm going to have to kick your ass if I ever see you

 

[Engineer]

I wasn't asking you to guess how much I get paid, I was asking how much do you think I'm worth.

Again: I work 7:30-4:00 in an "inner city" district of 97% Hispanic and 90% free or reduced lunch. I am involved in clubs and sports after school, have to deal with parents in jail, on drugs, etc, and abusive situations are common. Over half are not fluent in academic English. Behavior is sometimes outrageous and/or dangerous. Basically you'd probably shit your pants on the first day as a teacher and never be heard from again. I mentor other teachers and am on a variety of committees. I take work home nearly every day. I am expected to teach history, geography, civics, and economics and create knowledgeable, solid citizens with critical thinking skills. I have a BA and two masters. I have been teaching for 14 years and I work 190 days a year.

Would about $54,000 be ok with you?

I do not think it's especially well paid, but I think it's fair enough. If you think 14 years, 3 degrees, putting up with the BS I have to put up with, and educating the future of America and molding good citizens is not worth $54k, then you're a cheap greedy bastard who needs to check his values and priorities.

Your main problem is you are awkwardly flailing in argument and sending silly messages because you bit off more than you can chew. You need to narrow your focus and make specific arguments on separate issues instead of overly broad rambling about lazy, overpaid teachers. If a district or even a state has a bad policy, go after that instead of launching mindless attacks on teachers and teaching in general.

Teaching SHOULD be a good, respectable, well-paid career. Don't let occasional bad policy (or bad teachers) in different locations lead you to overreact and condemn every teacher. If you think tenure is bad, I'll support you. If you think pensions should be replaced with 401/403 type accounts, I'm with you. If you want to bash teachers -and teaching- as a whole, call us lazy and overpaid, then I'm going to have to kick your ass if I ever see you

 

[Engineer]

No.

Any normal mechanic is gonna have a lot of business expenses to pay if he owns the garage, unlike a teacher who is merely an employee.

Profit is generally no where near what gross revenue (the $60 per hr) is.



Now where did I say that?




Not really willing to pay that TBH.

I recently replaced the axle on my car myself. I do my own electrical and plumbing stuff too.

The last time I needed a lawyer I represented my self in court and saved a few $1K's.

I'm not really a good one to be addressing these questions to.

Fern

Fine, I'll take it a step farther.

Teacher with 25 kids. Makes $35 per hour + benefits. Let's say $50 per hour for shits and giggles. That is $2 per hour per kid. Sounds pretty fucking reasonable to me.

You can't get child care in the US for $2 per hour and this thread is full of people bitching and moaning about teacher pay/benefits.

By the way, do you teach your own kids or do you pay the $2 per hour to the teacher to do it?

:roll:

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I wasn't asking you to guess how much I get paid, I was asking how much do you think I'm worth.

Again: I work 7:30-4:00 in an "inner city" district of 97% Hispanic and 90% free or reduced lunch. I am involved in clubs and sports after school, have to deal with parents in jail, on drugs, etc, and abusive situations are common. Over half are not fluent in academic English. Behavior is sometimes outrageous and/or dangerous. Basically you'd probably shit your pants on the first day as a teacher and never be heard from again. I mentor other teachers and am on a variety of committees. I take work home nearly every day. I am expected to teach history, geography, civics, and economics and create knowledgeable, solid citizens with critical thinking skills. I have a BA and two masters. I have been teaching for 14 years and I work 190 days a year.

Would about $54,000 be ok with you?

I do not think it's especially well paid, but I think it's fair enough. If you think 14 years, 3 degrees, putting up with the BS I have to put up with, and educating the future of America and molding good citizens is not worth $54k, then you're a cheap greedy bastard who needs to check his values and priorities.

Your main problem is you are awkwardly flailing in argument and sending silly messages because you bit off more than you can chew. You need to narrow your focus and make specific arguments on separate issues instead of overly broad rambling about lazy, overpaid teachers. If a district or even a state has a bad policy, go after that instead of launching mindless attacks on teachers and teaching in general.

Teaching SHOULD be a good, respectable, well-paid career. Don't let occasional bad policy (or bad teachers) in different locations lead you to overreact and condemn every teacher. If you think tenure is bad, I'll support you. If you think pensions should be replaced with 401/403 type accounts, I'm with you. If you want to bash teachers -and teaching- as a whole, call us lazy and overpaid, then I'm going to have to kick your ass if I ever see you

What kind of retirement benefits if you don't mind my asking?

 

[ProfJohn]

Would about $54,000 be ok with you?

With your time on the job and Masters + you should be making more than that.

 

[BoberFett]

Stupid thread is stupid.

 

[Red Dawn]

I wasn't asking you to guess how much I get paid, I was asking how much do you think I'm worth.

Again: I work 7:30-4:00 in an "inner city" district of 97% Hispanic and 90% free or reduced lunch. I am involved in clubs and sports after school, have to deal with parents in jail, on drugs, etc, and abusive situations are common. Over half are not fluent in academic English. Behavior is sometimes outrageous and/or dangerous. Basically you'd probably shit your pants on the first day as a teacher and never be heard from again. I mentor other teachers and am on a variety of committees. I take work home nearly every day. I am expected to teach history, geography, civics, and economics and create knowledgeable, solid citizens with critical thinking skills. I have a BA and two masters. I have been teaching for 14 years and I work 190 days a year.

Would about $54,000 be ok with you?

I do not think it's especially well paid, but I think it's fair enough. If you think 14 years, 3 degrees, putting up with the BS I have to put up with, and educating the future of America and molding good citizens is not worth $54k, then you're a cheap greedy bastard who needs to check his values and priorities.

Your main problem is you are awkwardly flailing in argument and sending silly messages because you bit off more than you can chew. You need to narrow your focus and make specific arguments on separate issues instead of overly broad rambling about lazy, overpaid teachers. If a district or even a state has a bad policy, go after that instead of launching mindless attacks on teachers and teaching in general.

Teaching SHOULD be a good, respectable, well-paid career. Don't let occasional bad policy (or bad teachers) in different locations lead you to overreact and condemn every teacher. If you think tenure is bad, I'll support you. If you think pensions should be replaced with 401/403 type accounts, I'm with you. If you want to bash teachers -and teaching- as a whole, call us lazy and overpaid, then I'm going to have to kick your ass if I ever see you

ProJo and his ilk are just modern day Joe MaCarthy's except it's Unions and Civil Servants instead of Communists (and in their mind they are probably one in the same)

 

[ProfJohn]

Your main problem is you are awkwardly flailing in argument and sending silly messages because you bit off more than you can chew. You need to narrow your focus and make specific arguments on separate issues instead of overly broad rambling about lazy, overpaid teachers. If a district or even a state has a bad policy, go after that instead of launching mindless attacks on teachers and teaching in general.

I didn't make this thread to attack teachers or call them lazy or overpaid.

I made it to counter the argument that they are some how working their asses off and are unpaid.

I would say that in general teachers are fairly paid, but due to cost of benefits they are over paid in total.

Now it sounds like you are personally underpaid. But I bet I can find a teacher in your school district that makes the same as you and puts in half the effort.

And the bigger problem is the legacy costs, which we both agree on.

 

[mchammer187]

I didn't make this thread to attack teachers or call them lazy or overpaid.

I made it to counter the argument that they are some how working their asses off and are unpaid.

I would say that in general teachers are fairly paid, but due to cost of benefits they are over paid in total.

Now it sounds like you are personally underpaid. But I bet I can find a teacher in your school district that makes the same as you and puts in half the effort.

And the bigger problem is the legacy costs, which we both agree on.

Reading the title and your first post how can anyone come to any other conclusion?

 

[cwjerome]

Now it sounds like you are personally underpaid. But I bet I can find a teacher in your school district that makes the same as you and puts in half the effort.

I think I am fairly paid, obviously, or I wouldn't be doing it. The cost of living in AZ isn't bad and I do have a pension plan after 30 years, 70% of the last 3 year average. But I quoted this because it's another area I can agree with you as being a problem. I am not sure of exact solutions but it's something that needs to be seriously addressed.

By the way, Arizona does not have teacher unions and it's illegal to base highering/firing practices on seniority... no tenure.

 

[Engineer]

Reading the title and your first post how can anyone come to any other conclusion?

Because he meant it that way and is now back peddling when confronted with it.

Oh, PJ, how about the salary of Congress vs how much they work and their lifelong benefits including dozens of FREE (i.e. paid for with tax or borrowed money) trips and other perks?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286235,00.html

 

[bfdd]

30 dollars an hour is a lot of money. TBH i don't think very many people deserve 30 dollars an hour and i mean a lot of things.

 

[ProfJohn]

I think I am fairly paid, obviously, or I wouldn't be doing it. The cost of living in AZ isn't bad and I do have a pension plan after 30 years, 70% of the last 3 year average. But I quoted this because it's another area I can agree with you as being a problem. I am not sure of exact solutions but it's something that needs to be seriously addressed.

By the way, Arizona does not have teacher unions and it's illegal to base highering/firing practices on seniority... no tenure.

THAT is the problem.

So you make $54k now. Let's say you retire at that amount and go further and say that was what you made every year for 30 years (to make the math easy)

So now you are 55 and making $37,800 a year for LIFE for doing nothing.

Now the math.
30 years x $54,000 = $1,620,000 total pay over your career

20 years retirement x $37,800 = $756,000 in retirement
30 years retirement x $37,800 = $1,134,000 in retirement

So the cost of just your pay works out to be
$2,376,000 if you survive retirement for 20 years
$2,745,000 if you survive retirement for 30 years.

Cost per year for just your pay (healthcare is probably 10-15% of your pay)
30 work + 20 retirement means you actually make $79,200 per year of work
30+30 and you are making $91,800 per year of work.

Do you think $79,200 a year is a fair pay rate for what you do?

 

[ProfJohn]

Because he meant it that way and is now back peddling when confronted with it.

Oh, PJ, how about the salary of Congress vs how much they work and their lifelong benefits including dozens of FREE (i.e. paid for with tax or borrowed money) trips and other perks?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286235,00.html

Congress sucks!!!

Take away their retirement and make them collect SS like the rest of us. Wiener is going to collect nearly a million via his pension? WTF!

Same with the President. Give him free healthcare, but that should be all. Or perhaps means test his retirement that way if one sucks so bad that he can't even collect money doing speech he will at least be covered for their sacrifice.

 

[Engineer]

So back to the main topic. Do you think $79,200 a year is a fair pay rate for what you do?

I do and am willing to take a tax hike to pay for it.

 

[Carmen813]

Here is a copy of a union contract for the South Milwaukee school district.

Everything in bold is my comments.


http://www.publicschoolspending.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/South-Milwaukee-Sch-Dist-2009.pdf

High School Middle School Elementary Schools
7:30 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. (includes a thirty (30) minute duty- free lunch period)

7 hour work day

A full-time classroom teacher in the district has 320-330 minutes of student- assignable time per day.

5.5 hours a day in front of students

Full-time teachers at the 6-12 level shall not have more than five (5) instructional classes per day and not more than 1350 minutes of instructional time per week. This language allows the option of mutually agreeable overload assignments and pay.

22.5 hours a week and if you do more you get paid more.

Professional staff who are absent from work because of illness or other disabilities will be compensated at full pro-rated contractual pay level at the rate of twelve (12) personal sick leave days per year, cumulative to one hundred (100) days.

12 sick days in a 9 month period...

The calendar will have one hundred eighty (180) session days. Session days are those days the school is occupied by both students and teachers. Up to three (3) scheduled parent/teacher conference days may be included in the one hundred eighty (180) session days .

They actually have 187 days of work a year after workshop days and parent conferences etc

And for all this suffering they are paid a starting pay of $38k for a BA degree up to $46k after 5 years and top out at $50k after 9. A masters is worth as much as $10k depending on years worked.

I should have gone into teaching...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority of people posting in this thread wouldn't last a week working fulltime in the school I tutored in a couple years ago.

 

[ProfJohn]

I do and am willing to take a tax hike to pay for it.

So how much have you given to the school out of the kindness of your heart?

You want to pay more in taxes then start writing checks.

 

[DCal430]

Awww.... PJ -- Do you ever stop posting lies, deceptions, distortions and diversion from the truth?

Thanks for generalizing from one example from one state, instead of looking for comprehensive data.

This info from teacherportal.com tells a very different story. They report starting and average salaries, as well as the ten year average increases, and they are ranked by the salary in the context of a "Salary Comfort Index," which they define:



The state with the highest Salary Comfort Index is Illinois:

Starting: $37,500
Average: $58,686
10 year increase: 43.4

The lowest is Hawaii:

Starting: $35,816
Average: $49,292
10 year increase: 37.7

You can find stats for the 48 states in between those at the link.



NO! You should not! Save our children!

Unlike you, teachers actually provide a service in the public interest, and they assume far greater responsibility for our future than you. AFIC, good teachers are worth far more than what most of them are paid.

But hey -- Thanks for admitting that you're not a teacher so even your user name is a lie. :biggrin:

That website is bunk. It has wrong data atleast for California. It shows the average teacher salary in California as 59K, but actual payroll from the state show it is 68K. Almost 10K more than that website claims. This doesn't even include the the pension benefits that they get. Retire at 60 and get 75% of your highest yearly pay for life adjusted for inflation. Also lifetime health benefits too.

Here is a website with average teacher salary in California. This uses REAL payroll data that is a public record. This is not a survey but is instead actual payroll data that each and every districts submits.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/26/99...hool-district.html?appSession=973233077250394