A sample of how 'hard' teachers have it

[jackstar7]

PJ, did you go to public or private schools as a kid?

I realize I'm personalizing a bit and that's not something I like to do, but given the very personal nature of education it seems like it might be worthwhile.

 

[ProfJohn]

Public

I went to northern schools which are MUCH better than southern school.
Graduated from a small school in Maine. 220 people in my class.

4 years of having my mind filed with northern liberal ideas, but I escaped

 

[MotF Bane]

Public

I went to northern schools which are MUCH better than southern school.
Graduated from a small school in Maine. 220 people in my class.

4 years of having my mind filed with northern liberal ideas, but I escaped

Lulz.

 

[jackstar7]

I understand you can't and won't experience teaching first-hand and that's fine. But you probably should do more reading on the subject before holding up a single piece of paper and declaring an entire profession to be one thing or another.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Nicely said.

Hope you enjoy the job and stick with it.

A lot of people say the first 5 years are the worst which is why so many drop out. But eventually they say you get to the point where you out of school time starts to drop.

And of course Alabama means low pay, but also low cost of living.

Question: Do you think you are fairly paid for the job you do and the amount of time you work?

Do you think you could find a similar job in private industry that would give you the amount of time off and benefits you get?

I think the time off is the big attraction. Sure you work a lot of hours during the school year, but then you get 10 weeks off every summer.

They say that, but studies show the older teachers actually spend more time, not less. It's the 30yr olds that spend the least time working...probably because they're in the sweet spot of youth/vitality and income. In other words they're doing what people are supposed to be doing - living.

 

[ProfJohn]

Being a teacher is a hard, thankless job. There's no respect for your time, no respect for your skill, and no respect for how hard you work for so little.

You could say that about a lot of jobs though.


And look, we don't need to take away their pay. But their benefits are out of line with pretty much everyone else who makes a similar salary.

We already have cities, counties and states going broke or on the verge and one of the problems is legacy costs.

Remember that story about that one city that was spending as much money on former employees as it was on current employees.

We are on a path to financial catastrophe if we don't start addressing these problem.

Here:
http://ctwatchdog.com/2011/07/26/ct...-budget-as-higher-paying-towns-are-subsidized

Ct Teacher Pensions Cost 4 Percent Of State’s Budget

4% of the state budget goes just to retired teachers. Imagine where we will be 10 years from now as baby boomer teachers retire and everyone lives longer.

We better fix this problem before it blows up.

 

[First]

Bullshit!

That McDonalds job is going to require 45-50 hours a week every week for 50 weeks a year.

Compared to 50 hours a week for 9 months a year.

A 45-50 hour week is pretty much standard for white collar employees these days. So the typical working making similar pay as a teacher is working as many hours a week as a teacher and doesn't get 14 weeks off a year.

No actually, the average private hours worked in the U.S. economy in July was 34.3 hrs/ per week. But I love how you make shit up, lol.

 

[MovingTarget]

Nicely said.

Hope you enjoy the job and stick with it.

A lot of people say the first 5 years are the worst which is why so many drop out. But eventually they say you get to the point where you out of school time starts to drop.

And of course Alabama means low pay, but also low cost of living.

Question: Do you think you are fairly paid for the job you do and the amount of time you work?

Do you think you could find a similar job in private industry that would give you the amount of time off and benefits you get?

I think the time off is the big attraction. Sure you work a lot of hours during the school year, but then you get 10 weeks off every summer.

Many do burn out within the first five years, and I can see why. I wouldn't say that my out of school time would drop considerably as I gain more experience. Sure, I may be able to re-use tests or other materials, but thats about it. My grading time will not get any lower because I simply refuse to use scan-tron or other computer-gradable media for my tests. I am ideologically opposed to them because they offer no feedback other than a percentage. I hand-grade all my math tests, offering critiques on every problem because many times students learn just as much from constructive criticism of failure. I don't forsee doing less work in the future without the quality of my teaching declining similarly.

I am not fairly paid for my job for the amount of time I put in directly, my credentials, and my other required professional development. I already had a masters degree in math before I started teaching. I then had to take a bunch of education courses just to qualify for certification. Many thousands of dollars were spent out of my pocket on courses that only marginally improve my teaching. Now, I have to keep taking refresher courses and other professional development without reimbursement just to keep my license....for the rest of my career. Lord knows that math is an area of national need when it comes to education. I could make much, much more as a mathematician in terms of salary and benefits. But I would always want to teach because that is who I am.

I just hope that I don't end up in the poor house when I'm older because I chose to teach. I make in the low $30k range, have health/dental, and a 401k that contributes 5% on top of my salary. I know AL has a low cost of living, but that is still well below the median wage for the state. It isn't much compared to other fields.

The time off is nice in theory, but those two summer months go by quick - especially when you are at the school almost every weekday.

 

[Fear No Evil]

This is no surprise here but I agree with PJ. Teachers are perhaps the biggest bunch of whiners on the planet. As PJ so eloquently pointed out, corporate white collar America is routinely asked to work WELL over 40 hours per week. They have to deal with demanding assholes for customers like anyone else. They are often required to be available 24/7 on call. They often go home and fire up their laptops and work into the night.

Boo-Fucking-Hoo. Got to correct some papers.. OMG, so stressful. Have to coach some intramural team.. OMG.. so tough. You have bulletproof job protections, you often pay little to nothing for your retirement and healthcare, and you can retire well before age 65, cash out your sick days and get an even bigger payment. Got to buy some pen and papers for the kids? I've bought all sorts of stuff I need to do my jobs.. books to help me learn new products/technologies, a bigger monitor for at home because my company won't provide me one for my laptop, training classes, clothes and suits to meet with customers, etc.. Stop whining.

As for those calling out PJ saying 'You don't know what we do so STFU'.. then the same goes for YOU.. You don't know what non-government working Americans have to put up with.. you have NO idea what its like to not have ANY retirement except for the money you put in and watching it all slip away as the stock market tanks. You could be let go at any moment for almost any reason and you have no way of 'filing a grievance'. You get to work at 7, leave at 7pm, then go home and work for a couple more hours with no overtime, no comp time, etc.

Everyone's job sucks for the most part right now. Everyone is being expected to take on more and more projects, everyone is getting paid less, being appreciated less, etc.

Suck it up, the rest of us do. Or quit and find a new job.. there is no shortage of teachers and its not wonder why people line up for the job.. it isn't because they are such wonderful caring people.. its because the job isn't that difficult, has great benefits, and honestly doesn't require a rocket scientist to do.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Public

I went to northern schools which are MUCH better than southern school.
Graduated from a small school in Maine. 220 people in my class.

4 years of having my mind filed with northern liberal ideas, but I escaped

The schools in Maine must really suck badly for you to hate on teachers as much as you do.

 

[trenchfoot]

I have more than a few teachers in my immediate and extended family. At family gatherings I do ask about the myraid problems they go through to get their jobs done. It's formidable to say the least. In this profession, you have to really love your job to stay in it 'til retirement.

IMHO, teachers are chronically underpaid for what they have to go through on a daily basis to get their jobs done properly, not to mention the emotional distress they go through having to put up with disrespectful students and parents of students that refuse to imbue their kids with a good attitude toward how valuable a good education is, yet demand that teachers take up the parent's slack in this regard.

On the back end, because administrators are so worried about keeping irate parents off their backs and avoiding litigation, they will for the most part refuse to back the teachers they're in charge of the way they really should. Administrators will also keep asking for more more more while giving less less less in the way of teaching resources.

Because of these factors, I've found that teachers as a whole, are a very resourceful lot, always finding ways to do more with less and always willing to give more than they should.

They deserve every cent they earn and more.

Props to them and my thanks for the education they gave me to help get me where I am today.:thumbsup:

 

[ProfJohn]

No actually, the average private hours worked in the U.S. economy in July was 34.3 hrs/ per week. But I love how you make shit up, lol.

That would be the average for ALL Americans.

What is the average for people making $45-60k?

I'd say at least 40 if not 45-50.

 

[gotsmack]

Heh. I used to think being a teacher would be okay. Then I had to prepare a 15 minute lecture and I realized how long it freaking takes to actually fill 15 minutes with something both informative and interesting. Then you have to prepare tests, grade tests, deal with kids. They couldn't pay me enough, to be honest. I hate jobs where you have to take your work home with you, and a lot of what teachers do has to be prepared outside of the classroom.

But thats a 1 time thing though. After the first year it becomes a turn key operation (with a few minor tweaks along the way) as it is unlikely you get rotated to different subjects/grades every year.

If you teach English or History there maybe a be a bit of reading involved for papers. But I wouldn't call that work mentally taxing.

White collar jobs have homework too, except most people decide to stay at the office longer and finish it there instead of bringing it home.

I think to equalize normal white collar jobs to teaching, they should:
1. Extend the school year to 12 months, with 1 week off for Easter, 1 week off in August, and the days between Christmas and new years day off + any of the 10 holidays that weren't covered by the normal time off. As a bonus the school is closed any Monday of Friday where the day after or before is a holiday.
2. School day is 9 hours including 1 hour of lunch
3. Change class time to 4 hours per class per session. Maybe 2 sessions per week and kids don't get homework or limit homework to 30 minutes worth for every 4 hours of class time.
4. Get rid of P.E., if students want to play sports, there are activities after school and on Saturday and Sunday that the student can register for. Instead of P.E. teachers, the school system can contract out for people to teach sports. So sports offered will be based on popularity because there will have to be a minimum amount of interest to be offered.
5. Teachers are required to take the national tests for their subject and grade if there is one. Example, if you teach AP English you have to take the AP test. If you fail, you get put on probation. These teachers obviously should get paid more.
6. Students take a private confidence vote at the end of the year, if the teacher gets bad marks 2 years in a row there will be an investigation.
7. Restructure benefits, Teachers now pay into SS and there is no pension. They get a 401k match, 100% for the first 5%. They can keep the top notch medical care, but sick days don't roll over. There is also now no more tenure.


If this is done, I have no problem paying teachers $60-$80k a year, maybe 100k if they teach college level math or science and have a masters in their subject.

Also, if teachers don't think they are paid enough, they should do something else. They knew what the pay level was going in, so they don't get to complain.

 

[CrackRabbit]

This is no surprise here but I agree with PJ. Teachers are perhaps the biggest bunch of whiners on the planet. As PJ so eloquently pointed out, corporate white collar America is routinely asked to work WELL over 40 hours per week. They have to deal with demanding assholes for customers like anyone else. They are often required to be available 24/7 on call. They often go home and fire up their laptops and work into the night.

Boo-Fucking-Hoo. Got to correct some papers.. OMG, so stressful. Have to coach some intramural team.. OMG.. so tough. You have bulletproof job protections, you often pay little to nothing for your retirement and healthcare, and you can retire well before age 65, cash out your sick days and get an even bigger payment. Got to buy some pen and papers for the kids? I've bought all sorts of stuff I need to do my jobs.. books to help me learn new products/technologies, a bigger monitor for at home because my company won't provide me one for my laptop, training classes, clothes and suits to meet with customers, etc.. Stop whining.

As for those calling out PJ saying 'You don't know what we do so STFU'.. then the same goes for YOU.. You don't know what non-government working Americans have to put up with.. you have NO idea what its like to not have ANY retirement except for the money you put in and watching it all slip away as the stock market tanks. You could be let go at any moment for almost any reason and you have no way of 'filing a grievance'. You get to work at 7, leave at 7pm, then go home and work for a couple more hours with no overtime, no comp time, etc.

Everyone's job sucks for the most part right now. Everyone is being expected to take on more and more projects, everyone is getting paid less, being appreciated less, etc.

Suck it up, the rest of us do. Or quit and find a new job.. there is no shortage of teachers and its not wonder why people line up for the job.. it isn't because they are such wonderful caring people.. its because the job isn't that difficult, has great benefits, and honestly doesn't require a rocket scientist to do.

I'm willing to get the infraction for this.

Do us all a favor and go DIAF.
You truly are nothing but a worthless troll.

 

[First]

Also, on the subject of fantastic benefits; teachers in most school districts deserve it, especially bigger cities, because the emotional and sometimes physical abuse teachers receive at the hands of students is more than worth better-than-private-sector benefits. It's really not particularly close if you've had any experience whatsoever teaching, TA'ing or administering a classroom in, say, New York or Los Angeles. I can tell you from my time TA'ing in East LA years back that there NO question (literally none) that the benefits and pay of LAUSD teachers aren't enough. To call them lavish or outsized simply doesn't cope with verifiable reality. Any contingent valuation method shows this conclusively (assuming a non-troll, which is of course not what we're dealing with WRT the OP).

 

[ProfJohn]

The schools in Maine must really suck badly for you to hate on teachers as much as you do.

Nah. I love teachers :wub:

I just think that we have to fix the pay vs benefit problem.

And it isn't really the teachers fault, more the unions and the damage they have done to education.

We have two choices. Fix it now before it becomes too big a problem or wait until we end up like Greece where we are so screwed that we have to tell 70 year old retired people that they are losing 10% of the retirement pay because we have gone broke.

THAT is the path we are on right now.

 

[ProfJohn]

The time off is nice in theory, but those two summer months go by quick - especially when you are at the school almost every weekday.

I hope you stick with it and I hope you enjoy your time. I am sure it has rewards that go beyond the pay check.


And I am not attacking teachers as much as the unions and the system we have created.

Look at the CT link I posted.

10% of the state budget goes to help schools with new buildings and other things, 4% goes to retirement. That 4% will continue to rise and eventually the 10% will have to come down. And then we will be in a situation where we spend more for the promises of yesterday than for the promise of tomorrow <-- Obama better not steal my line

 

[PrinceofWands]

This is no surprise here but I agree with PJ. Teachers are perhaps the biggest bunch of whiners on the planet. As PJ so eloquently pointed out, corporate white collar America is routinely asked to work WELL over 40 hours per week. They have to deal with demanding assholes for customers like anyone else. They are often required to be available 24/7 on call. They often go home and fire up their laptops and work into the night.

Boo-Fucking-Hoo. Got to correct some papers.. OMG, so stressful. Have to coach some intramural team.. OMG.. so tough. You have bulletproof job protections, you often pay little to nothing for your retirement and healthcare, and you can retire well before age 65, cash out your sick days and get an even bigger payment. Got to buy some pen and papers for the kids? I've bought all sorts of stuff I need to do my jobs.. books to help me learn new products/technologies, a bigger monitor for at home because my company won't provide me one for my laptop, training classes, clothes and suits to meet with customers, etc.. Stop whining.

As for those calling out PJ saying 'You don't know what we do so STFU'.. then the same goes for YOU.. You don't know what non-government working Americans have to put up with.. you have NO idea what its like to not have ANY retirement except for the money you put in and watching it all slip away as the stock market tanks. You could be let go at any moment for almost any reason and you have no way of 'filing a grievance'. You get to work at 7, leave at 7pm, then go home and work for a couple more hours with no overtime, no comp time, etc.

Everyone's job sucks for the most part right now. Everyone is being expected to take on more and more projects, everyone is getting paid less, being appreciated less, etc.

Suck it up, the rest of us do. Or quit and find a new job.. there is no shortage of teachers and its not wonder why people line up for the job.. it isn't because they are such wonderful caring people.. its because the job isn't that difficult, has great benefits, and honestly doesn't require a rocket scientist to do.

And you have both direct experience and research studies to support that of course? I'm sure you could do it easily and it wouldn't bother you at all...and yet I'm betting you don't for some reason. Now why is that I wonder...

 

[ProfJohn]

I'm willing to get the infraction for this.

Do us all a favor and go DIAF.
You truly are nothing but a worthless troll.

And your not??

Have you added anything to the thread beyond insults?

 

[First]

That would be the average for ALL Americans.

What is the average for people making $45-60k?

I'd say at least 40 if not 45-50.

Nope, average American worker makes $46,000+/yr. But keep trolling that boat!

 

[First]

This is no surprise here but I agree with PJ. Teachers are perhaps the biggest bunch of whiners on the planet. As PJ so eloquently pointed out, corporate white collar America is routinely asked to work WELL over 40 hours per week. They have to deal with demanding assholes for customers like anyone else. They are often required to be available 24/7 on call. They often go home and fire up their laptops and work into the night.

Boo-Fucking-Hoo. Got to correct some papers.. OMG, so stressful. Have to coach some intramural team.. OMG.. so tough. You have bulletproof job protections, you often pay little to nothing for your retirement and healthcare, and you can retire well before age 65, cash out your sick days and get an even bigger payment. Got to buy some pen and papers for the kids? I've bought all sorts of stuff I need to do my jobs.. books to help me learn new products/technologies, a bigger monitor for at home because my company won't provide me one for my laptop, training classes, clothes and suits to meet with customers, etc.. Stop whining.

As for those calling out PJ saying 'You don't know what we do so STFU'.. then the same goes for YOU.. You don't know what non-government working Americans have to put up with.. you have NO idea what its like to not have ANY retirement except for the money you put in and watching it all slip away as the stock market tanks. You could be let go at any moment for almost any reason and you have no way of 'filing a grievance'. You get to work at 7, leave at 7pm, then go home and work for a couple more hours with no overtime, no comp time, etc.

Everyone's job sucks for the most part right now. Everyone is being expected to take on more and more projects, everyone is getting paid less, being appreciated less, etc.

Suck it up, the rest of us do. Or quit and find a new job.. there is no shortage of teachers and its not wonder why people line up for the job.. it isn't because they are such wonderful caring people.. its because the job isn't that difficult, has great benefits, and honestly doesn't require a rocket scientist to do.

As if we needed further confirmation of your horrid opinions, this last sentence really takes the cake for all sorts of lulz and fail. You really set the standard there big boy (that's an allusion to your fatness, fyi).

 

[CrackRabbit]

And your not??

Have you added anything to the thread beyond insults?

Nope.
I haven't seen anything you have posted that isn't useless anti-union / anti-teacher drivel.
Hard to counter post reason against such crap.

 

[Fear No Evil]

And you have both direct experience and research studies to support that of course? I'm sure you could do it easily and it wouldn't bother you at all...and yet I'm betting you don't for some reason. Now why is that I wonder...

I'll provide them when you provide a study that shows how much harder teachers have it than any other job.

Jesus Christ we got soldiers getting shot and killed in Obama's war on brown people and do we see .000001% of the complaining from them? My god.. you'd think by the way teachers act they are throwing themselves on grenades to save students lives.

If the job sucks so bad, quit.. there are 20 people waiting to take your job.

 

[Engineer]

And your not??

Have you added anything to the thread beyond insults?

You must have been asleep during your great Northern education.

 

[Red Dawn]

This is no surprise here but I agree with PJ. Teachers are perhaps the biggest bunch of whiners on the planet. As PJ so eloquently pointed out, corporate white collar America is routinely asked to work WELL over 40 hours per week. They have to deal with demanding assholes for customers like anyone else. They are often required to be available 24/7 on call. They often go home and fire up their laptops and work into the night.

Boo-Fucking-Hoo. Got to correct some papers.. OMG, so stressful. Have to coach some intramural team.. OMG.. so tough. You have bulletproof job protections, you often pay little to nothing for your retirement and healthcare, and you can retire well before age 65, cash out your sick days and get an even bigger payment. Got to buy some pen and papers for the kids? I've bought all sorts of stuff I need to do my jobs.. books to help me learn new products/technologies, a bigger monitor for at home because my company won't provide me one for my laptop, training classes, clothes and suits to meet with customers, etc.. Stop whining.

As for those calling out PJ saying 'You don't know what we do so STFU'.. then the same goes for YOU.. You don't know what non-government working Americans have to put up with.. you have NO idea what its like to not have ANY retirement except for the money you put in and watching it all slip away as the stock market tanks. You could be let go at any moment for almost any reason and you have no way of 'filing a grievance'. You get to work at 7, leave at 7pm, then go home and work for a couple more hours with no overtime, no comp time, etc.

Everyone's job sucks for the most part right now. Everyone is being expected to take on more and more projects, everyone is getting paid less, being appreciated less, etc.

Suck it up, the rest of us do. Or quit and find a new job.. there is no shortage of teachers and its not wonder why people line up for the job.. it isn't because they are such wonderful caring people.. its because the job isn't that difficult, has great benefits, and honestly doesn't require a rocket scientist to do.

Thank you, your agreeing with ProJo just proves how out of touch he is.

It's not that their job is tough, they are willing to do it. It's that animals like you, Projo and the rest of the Republican party have singled them out. What they do is multitudes more important to society than what either of you do.