A Muslim's perspective

[Carmen813]

Hinduism isn't actually polytheistic, or idol worship. Their core belief is that there is one God, but they acknowledge that there could be many different versions of that God. Images to them are just different possible variations of the same God. They aren't worshiping the idol, but rather the one God represented by it. Basically, since no one knows what God looks like, they believe there are infinite possibilities and thus see the different images of Gods as a catalyst for spiritual discussion.

PJABBER,
Saying there are no moderate Muslims has to rank up there with the stupidest things I have ever read on this board. I award you no points, and may <insert diving being> have mercy on your soul. I also hereby deem you a sith!

 

[PJABBER]

Fucking twat.

Hey, hey, hey! Look what crawled up from underneath his barstool! Our favorite fake SAS trooper lager lout!

I still get a belly chuckle at how ignorant you are of basic weaponry, tactics, the SAS and most everything but the bottom of your glass!

And a claim to be a historian to boot? Got your first in history before Sandhurst did you? LOL!

But carry on, ya poofter, you always are good for a laugh!

:awe:

 

[Doboji]

I realize this thread is already pretty dang far along... so that me chiming in here is late.

I oppose building a Mosque on ground zero... however I think that you cannot block it from being built... I just think it's an incredibly poor decision by the people choosing to build it.

I think it's a bad idea... not because it's a Mosque.. or because of Islam. I think it's a bad idea because NO RELIGIOUS building whether it be a Mosque, Church, Temple or Synagogue should be built there... September 11th was the result of the extremes of Religion, and the intolerance of religion. The only acceptable buildings in that area would be Businesses to demonstrate that the American will cannot be broken, monuments to honor the dead, or an all inclusive community center to show unity.

Building a religious building for one religious group is just plain insulting to what America stands for... regardless of which religion it is.

-Max

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Hey, hey, hey! Look what crawled up from underneath his barstool! Our favorite fake SAS trooper lager lout!

I still get a belly chuckle at how ignorant you are of basic weaponry, tactics, the SAS and most everything but the bottom of your glass!

And a claim to be a historian to boot? Got your first in history before Sandhurst did you? LOL!

But carry on, ya poofer, you always are good for a laugh!

:awe:

Whatever you say you retarded piece of shit.




I don't care what the context you were using the N-word. I can see you were using it against racism, but....

Under no circumstances, use it again.

esquared
Anandtech Administrator
What's next, no great person in MY neighbourhood?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I realize this thread is already pretty dang far along... so that me chiming in here is late.

I oppose building a Mosque on ground zero... however I think that you cannot block it from being built... I just think it's an incredibly poor decision by the people choosing to build it.

I think it's a bad idea... not because it's a Mosque.. or because of Islam. I think it's a bad idea because NO RELIGIOUS building whether it be a Mosque, Church, Temple or Synagogue should be built there... September 11th was the result of the extremes of Religion, and the intolerance of religion. The only acceptable buildings in that area would be Businesses to demonstrate that the American will cannot be broken, monuments to honor the dead, or an all inclusive community center to show unity.

Building a religious building for one religious group is just plain insulting to what America stands for... regardless of which religion it is.

-Max

Now, see, THIS i can agree with.

 

[routan]

I realize this thread is already pretty dang far along... so that me chiming in here is late.

I oppose building a Mosque on ground zero... however I think that you cannot block it from being built... I just think it's an incredibly poor decision by the people choosing to build it.

I think it's a bad idea... not because it's a Mosque.. or because of Islam. I think it's a bad idea because NO RELIGIOUS building whether it be a Mosque, Church, Temple or Synagogue should be built there... September 11th was the result of the extremes of Religion, and the intolerance of religion. The only acceptable buildings in that area would be Businesses to demonstrate that the American will cannot be broken, monuments to honor the dead, or an all inclusive community center to show unity.

Building a religious building for one religious group is just plain insulting to what America stands for... regardless of which religion it is.

-Max

Doboji/Max, thank you for your post. I respect your thoughts and opinions, and I value that you do give the same respect (or no respect) to all religions.

I would like to point out to the wider AT community that (multiple) churches exist in the same vicinity, including one across the street.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Doboji/Max, thank you for your post. I respect your thoughts and opinions, and I value that you do give the same respect (or no respect) to all religions.

I would like to point out to the wider AT community that (multiple) churches exist in the same vicinity, including one across the street.

That is REAL easy to fix.

Just hand some Muslim extremist a bomb and he'll do the demolition for free.

Or just convert it into something else, shouldn't be hard to buy them out, if there is ONE thing preachers and believers really worship it's MONEY!

 

[routan]

Why are you so mad, routan? These are questions that were asked by New Yorkers and never addressed by imam Rauf or the developer El-Gamal, et al. Only natural that they would re-appear.

Let's consider the Cordoba House appellation. You fully know that this was the original name of the proposed mosque development. As a PR move, the project was renamed Park51 (how Donnie Trump of El-Gamal and unnamed friends!) Why claim ignorance in a public forum when it takes but a five second search to determine the truth?

For example, we can refer to a New York Daily News article from July 14 -

Of course, we should not be surprised that the use of the "Cordoba" reference occurs over and over again. For example, your imam Rauf's special Islamic organizing initiative is called the "Cordoba Initiative," isn't it? Surely you are of aware of it?​

Let's see how he deflects the meaning of "Cordoba" for his English language audience and a woefully ignorant of history and historical context American audience -​

Wow, and here all of Europe thought that the Ummayads were foreign invaders and conquerors and that their plan to lay siege to all of Europe was a pretty frightening thing. I guess they did not read the press releases before they decided to kick them back out. Oh, if those glory days could just come back, THEN those infidels would see the light!​

By the way, exactly what is imam Rauf's role in this whole thing? Reading the FAQ for the Cordoba Initiative, he says this -​

and then right after,​

Do you kind of see why I keep referring to Cordoba House as the name for this project? And why it becomes important for us historically and geopolitically ignorant Americans to kind of start down that flower strewn path of awareness as we aren't talking about Kansas anymore?​

Actually, I find the entire Cordoba Initiative WWW site a fascinating read, if you know enough to read between the lines. Then it becomes kind of an ugly thing of manipulation and misdirection, but a perfect example of the application of taquiyya. Oh well, it will not be the first time someone tried to put lipstick on a pig.​

I guess here I can segue into a question. Just exactly what is the Cordoba Initiative's partner, the American Society for Muslim Advancement, and why are so many people leery about both its methods and its goals?​

I mean, I did a quick look up, again, and found this interesting commentary that goes on for thousands and thousands of words about whom they might be and how they go about their business...​

ASMA: American Society for the Advancement of Muslims - faux moderates promoting Islamisation by "Muslim Leaders of Tommorrow"​

Absolutely fascinating reading. Can this be right?​

Anyway, moving on a bit. Why are financing sources so important? As a finance guy myself, I know that money flows from people who have a special interest in something. That's natural, people look out for their own interests. ​

I am pretty sure the imam can raise funds, he and his wife, "Daisy" Khan, have this way about them. But $100 million is a lot of money and even as actively engaged as your mosque members may be, that is a lot of money. I would hazard more money than they can raise by passing around the plate, so to speak.​

Which means outside investors. Could you pretty please ask the imam the next time you see him to let us know exactly who is make up the $99.98 million shortfall? ​

I also know that who leads real estate development projects is kinda important. You have to have trust in their integrity and their skill sets.​

Which brings us to the developer, Sharif El-Gamal. ​

I personally value all kinds of life experience. After all, we all have to start somewhere. ​

Born into a fairly successful family, Sharif's main claim to fame before the immediate present, however, doesn't really impress me much. After all, he was a waiter until 2007, wasn't he? Then, using OPM (other people's money) he bought a few properties to start down a path of being a slum lord, kinda like the good imam himself. BTW, who fronted him this seed capital? ​

Still, this is NYC we are talking about and if you can make it as a waiter there you can make it anywhere.​

But, Sharif wasn't quite making it on the free cash flow from those projects, was he? Didn't pay his taxes on the properties, and he is facing eviction even from his own offices.​

But someone, somewhere seems to have a special trust that he can run a $100 million development project even with no experience in doing anything of the sort. Hmmmmm.​

Oh, and I still LOVE the idea of a multi-faith Islamic community pool, considering Islam by its own definition is one of the most intolerant of other faiths. Just for laughs, could you double-check with your imam and ask him if he would let a polytheistic faith even near the place, you know, maybe to hold a ceremony or a ritual or take a group swim? As I recall, Islam barely tolerates the presence of those who have a monotheistic faith but absolutely abhors polytheistic faiths. Just sayin'.​

BTW, as I have been catching up on my reading about the players in this game it does look like most are Saudis. which mean Wahabbism to me. You did not answer my question as to the variant of Islam you represent. Wahabbi, or not? Any chance we are corresponding with one of the "Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow?"​

I'll take a break here as I, for some reason, have this need for a double espresso. How about you?​

PJABBER, posts like yours would in no way evoke an emotion out of me 🙂 Rest assured, I am not mad, just appalled at how ridiculous people can be.

Whatever the name was is a pointless argument. Park51 should not be an offensive name to anyone.

However, I will humor you further. The Cordoba initiative is nothing new. It has been around for a number of years. I didnt see you, or anyone else jumping around about the choice of names then.

Please use the 5 seconds you proposed to determine the truth. JohnOfSheffield helped you in that effort. Thank him.

I already answered your financing of the mosque query. Because you throw a "I suspect the source of financing" does not really warrant any response whatsoever. I agree that the financing sources are important, and hence all required checks have been completed by the federal, state and city authorities.

Sharif El-Gamaal has been having financial difficulties because all of his current cash-flows are being thrown into the day-to-day operations and maintenance of the mosque. As to his success, America is awesome in affording everyone the opportunity to attain success. Heck, even I was printing T-shirts a few years ago 🙂

And I already mentioned, numerous non-Muslims have been hosted at the mosque. You repeating the same thing again and again is another example of being pointless.

I am a Sunni Muslim. The vast majority of Muslims do not subscribe to any variants.

Enjoy your espresso :thumbsup:

 

[routan]

That is REAL easy to fix.

Just hand some Muslim extremist a bomb and he'll do the demolition for free.

Or just convert it into something else, shouldn't be hard to buy them out, if there is ONE thing preachers and believers really worship it's MONEY!

Let us not be promoters of violence and hatred 🙂

 

[Doboji]

Doboji/Max, thank you for your post. I respect your thoughts and opinions, and I value that you do give the same respect (or no respect) to all religions.

I would like to point out to the wider AT community that (multiple) churches exist in the same vicinity, including one across the street.

I understand that there are other churches etc in the area. That still doesn't justify building a NEW religious building there. It is divisive to build one religions place of worship on a place that is now so important to all Americans. Surely there are plenty of other sites in the vicinity that could used just as well as this for a Mosque?

And just for clarity... I respect all religions, I actually think a perfect building for this space would be a museum of religious tolerance or something like that.

-Max

 

[routan]

I understand that there are other churches etc in the area. That still doesn't justify building a NEW religious building there. It is divisive to build one religions place of worship on a place that is now so important to all Americans. Surely there are plenty of other sites in the vicinity that could used just as well as this for a Mosque?

And just for clarity... I respect all religions, I actually think a perfect building for this space would be a museum of religious tolerance or something like that.

-Max

Doboji/Max, the need of Muslims in Lower Manhattan require a large area for Friday congregation. How do we address that need? Please see numerous prior posts where I have stated that Lower Manhattan is quite a densely packed area and no area in the vicinity would be out of WTC's shadow.

 

[Doboji]

Doboji/Max, the need of Muslims in Lower Manhattan require a large area for Friday congregation. How do we address that need? Please see numerous prior posts where I have stated that Lower Manhattan is quite a densely packed area and no area in the vicinity would be out of WTC's shadow.

Well if it TRULY is the case that this is the ONLY location in Lower Manhattan that would suit the needs of the Muslim community, then I might withdraw my opposition, but I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing that is true.

 

[routan]

Well if it TRULY is the case that this is the ONLY location in Lower Manhattan that would suit the needs of the Muslim community, then I might withdraw my opposition, but I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing that is true.

Doboji/Max, without making this into an argument, I wanted to correct the above. What I said was that NO location would be in sufficient distance from WTC to appease those opposed. And a location is certainly needed. Over 2000 Muslims congregate at Park51 every Friday.

 

[Infohawk]

What I said was that NO location would be in sufficient distance from WTC to appease those opposed.

Wrong.

 

[Doboji]

Doboji/Max, without making this into an argument, I wanted to correct the above. What I said was that NO location would be in sufficient distance from WTC to appease those opposed. And a location is certainly needed. Over 2000 Muslims congregate at Park51 every Friday.

I have a hard time believing this... what you're essentially saying is that America won't tolerate building a Mosque in New York City at all. I think that's a ridiculous assumption. A location is needed to serve the Muslim community, we both agree with that. Building that location THAT close to ground zero is just stupid, for all the reasons I mentioned before.

It has nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with being especially careful to properly honor and remember what happened on Sept 11 2001. Building a shiny new religious building on that spot is divisive, and offensive.

 

[routan]

I have a hard time believing this... what you're essentially saying is that America won't tolerate building a Mosque in New York City at all. I think that's a ridiculous assumption. A location is needed to serve the Muslim community, we both agree with that. Building that location THAT close to ground zero is just stupid, for all the reasons I mentioned before.

It has nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with being especially careful to properly honor and remember what happened on Sept 11 2001. Building a shiny new religious building on that spot is divisive, and offensive.

Doboji, you are misreading my posts. There are dozens and dozens of mosques all around NYC. But none in Lower Manhattan/Financial District that can serve the Muslim community that work/live there. Masjid Manhattan closed down its original location and the new location does not offer enough space for Friday prayers.

Also, please see post below, where I have addressed the location question:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30461117&postcount=432

 

[Doboji]

Doboji, you are misreading my posts. There are dozens and dozens of mosques all around NYC. But none in Lower Manhattan/Financial District that can serve the Muslim community that work/live there. Masjid Manhattan closed down its original location and the new location does not offer enough space for Friday prayers.

Also, please see post below, where I have addressed the location question:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30461117&postcount=432

With all due respect. This is where we must agree to disagree. I believe it is certainly possible to build the Mosque in a location that would serve the Muslim community with a respectful distance from ground zero. I oppose building the mosque where they are building it now.

 

[routan]

With all due respect. This is where we must agree to disagree. I believe it is certainly possible to build the Mosque in a location that would serve the Muslim community with a respectful distance from ground zero. I oppose building the mosque where they are building it now.

Doboji, it is easy to state the above on a forum. No one on here has proposed an alternative site (a suggestion I have repeatedly asked fellow members). Few if any of AT users are actually in NYC, have been here or have an understanding of Lower Manhattan/Financial District.

I even put up a picture of Manhattan to show members how awe-inspiring the WTC building were. They defined the entire city of New York. NO distance in Lower Manhattan would be sufficient furher away to be outside the "shadow" of WTC towers that would appease the naysayers.

But if you hold that opinion, you are completely entitled to it, and I respect it.

 

[Fear No Evil]

For those of us with actual knowledge about Cordoba attained from history and not from fascist talking heads it means a city where the three religions of Abraham lived in peace.

Of course, you being a politician who pretends to once have been in the service means you have to distort and find things to back up your distortion.

You are the weakest fucking troll on this entire board.

Now run along, you daft little twat, don't you have something new to make up to concentrate the hate of "we the people" on?

Fucking twat.

Why so mad? Because Obama is ordering you around and there is nothing you can do about it? Don't take it out on PJ..

 

[Madwand1]

I even put up a picture of Manhattan to show members how awe-inspiring the WTC building were. They defined the entire city of New York. NO distance in Lower Manhattan would be sufficient furher away to be outside the "shadow" of WTC towers that would appease the naysayers.

You keep on repeating this point as if it's substantive. What the most extreme think is not definitive for the population at large, nor should it become the crucial factor in the decision making one way or another.

The fact that the building at that site was damaged by the 9/11 attack means that not only was it close enough, and closer than much else, but an actual part of the history of the attack.

I'd think that that damage would also have reduced the cost of the site, and personally would have been concerned about benefiting from the attack in this way. Of course, it it is still possible to spin this the other way.

 

[daniel49]

I'll support it the day Muslims support rebuilding the Jewish Temple at the Dome of the Rock site.

"The Dome of the Rock is located at the visual center of a platform known as the Temple Mount, which Muslims refer to as the "Noble Sanctuary(Bait-ul-Muqaddas)". It was constructed as part of the Islamization of the Temple Mount on the site of the Second Jewish Temple[citation needed] which was destroyed during the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE. In 637 CE, Jerusalem was conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate army during the Muslim conquest of Syria.
The Dome of the Rock was erected between 689 and 691 CE."
*From Wikipedia*

 

[Doboji]

Doboji, it is easy to state the above on a forum. No one on here has proposed an alternative site (a suggestion I have repeatedly asked fellow members). Few if any of AT users are actually in NYC, have been here or have an understanding of Lower Manhattan/Financial District.

I even put up a picture of Manhattan to show members how awe-inspiring the WTC building were. They defined the entire city of New York. NO distance in Lower Manhattan would be sufficient furher away to be outside the "shadow" of WTC towers that would appease the naysayers.

But if you hold that opinion, you are completely entitled to it, and I respect it.

I don't think it's a valid argument to say that there will be some people opposing it no matter where you put it. Thats like saying there's no point in being tolerant of Muslims in the United States because there will always be some extremist muslims who want to kill us anyway.

Most Americans would have no issue with the Mosque if it were a couple more blocks away from the 911 site. Myself included. Yes there will always be some wackos who think Islam has no place on the Island of manhattan at all... but those folks are an extreme minority with no power, who I'd be more than happy to stand with you against.

 

[Orignal Earl]

If I owned a business next door to Ground Zero, and I had a lot of Muslim employees, I would build a mosque right inside. I don't need my employees having to run across town 5 times a day. I would put it right beside the day care.

 

[Doboji]

If I owned a business next door to Ground Zero, and I had a lot of Muslim employees, I would build a mosque right inside. I don't need my employees having to run across town 5 times a day. I would put it right beside the day care.

Hello I am the king of hypothetical irrelevant situations that no-one cares about.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Hello I am the king of hypothetical irrelevant situations that no-one cares about.

Man, you've been really trying to be insulting the last while..

Ok, how's this for relevance.. Muslims have to pray everyday, up to 5 times I believe, it don't make sense they should have to leave work and drive across town to pray. How long does it take to drive across NY anyways? I'm sure it wouldn't be a quick trip.

Oh, there are lots of Muslims who work and live around park51