A Muslim's perspective

[routan]

-snip-
RUNZ
P.S. Am I the only one who finds it just a bit odd that the company who pays the OP, “A TON OF MONEY ”, more so than even a doctor, still gets, “PATTED DOWN” by his works security? Hmmm, just sayin

runzwithsizorz, lol, this post is waaaaay too long. Just so that I can address this bit correctly, employees dont carry title tags on their persons. This is a 70k employees worldwide firm. Contracted security employees are not aware of who gets paid what. Even if they are, their job is security, hence they would even stop the CEO of the firm should there be an issue 🙂

 

[Orignal Earl]

If your going to pick a faith to disrespect...it's much wiser to pick Christianity or Judism...rather than Islam. Just ask Molly Norris.

Respect for my fellow man was something I was taught along time ago.
It does seem very rare here in P&N, but still has value in the real world.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Respect for my fellow man was something I was taught along time ago.
It does seem very rare here in P&N, but still has value in the real world.

I think you have me confused with zoiks.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Btw, I really like your avatar. I'm thinking of making one with someone defecating on the bible or peeing on the torah.

Such will not be allowed


Admin - Common Courtesy

 

[Orignal Earl]

Feeling safe at the moment, huh? No airliners flying over your head? I guess having those oil sands in your backyard kinda obliviates the actual need to concern yourself.

Didn't you have some military tales? I'm starting to think they were tall tales.
When a person has really been through the shit they tend not to be frighten by such fantasies anymore.
Do you really get scared when a plane flies over head? lol
Must be a bummer to have to take a ship on all your overseas adventures, then again remember the USS Cole
On a side note, a very large number of the folk working those oil sands are more refugees from your invasion of Iraq.

 

[PJABBER]

Didn't you have some military tales? I'm starting to think they were tall tales.
When a person has really been through the shit they tend not to be frighten by such fantasies anymore.
Do you really get scared when a plane flies over head? lol
Must be a bummer to have to take a ship on all your overseas adventures, then again remember the USS Cole
On a side note, a very large number of the folk working those oil sands are more refugees from your invasion of Iraq.

I wasn't talking about myself. But you already knew that. And I don't tell tales out of school! LOL!

I would be interested in the labor composition for the oil extraction projects. Might be hiring a few myself at some point. Good people, or you just never see them? Out of sight, out of mind?

 

[Orignal Earl]

I think you have me confused with zoiks.

Nope, I'm saying I wouldn't disrespect anyone's faith that way.
In Islam it is part of their faith not to show an image of Mo.
Not so in Christianity, in fact they promote it.

Such will not be allowed


Admin - Common Courtesy

May I ask why?

 

[Orignal Earl]

I wasn't talking about myself. But you already knew that. And I don't tell tales out of school! LOL!

I would be interested in the labor composition for the oil extraction projects. Might be hiring a few myself at some point. Good people, or you just never see them? Out of sight, out of mind?

No, I can't see the oilfields from here. They are quite a distance away.
But for your out of sight out of mind, I'm guessing my TMI post really was too much for you to read.
Your so busy and all, moving and shaking, moving and shaking

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Nope, I'm saying I wouldn't disrespect anyone's faith that way.

And I wouldn't either...but I believe it was zoiks who was the one advocating disrespect. Why are you addressing this with me...am I missing something here? Did you find my comment disrespectful in some way?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You think appeasement is going to keep your head on your shoulders, sport?

What do you think appeasement is? If i refuse to burn the Quaran or draw pictures of Mohammed, am i then appeasing Islamic Terrorists? How about if i suggest that you have the right to do it but that i think it's stupid all the same?

You want to be a patriot? Go do something worthwhile to help your nation and the people in it, THAT is patriotic, drawing a picture of Mohammed, while being a-ok with me, isn't really helping anyone achieve anything at ALL.

One thing that most people don't get is that any measure of success we've ever had in Afghanistan and Iraq was made possible BY MUSLIMS who helped us greatly in information collecting and knowledge of the local areas.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Such will not be allowed


Admin - Common Courtesy

May I ask why?

NSFW images are not allowed to be directly displayed as avatars or inline images unless in a forum that is restricted

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

First, welcome.

Second, you bring a much appreciated counterpoint and are very rational with your posts.

I firmly believe that you should be able to worship any religion you choose, provided it does not infringe upon others rights/freedoms. I support building the mosque in NYC (and elsewhere), because the entire religion cannot be faulted for the acts of a minority extremeist sect. Otherwise you would have to hold Christianity at fault for the Crusades, and many other "extremist" sects that have hurt/killed others.

I am not Islamic (obviously), and only know the ME culture through what gets reported on. I don't see the average ME views/life/thoughts, so I am uneducated on the subject and want to change that. Here are my "problems/concerns" with the Islamic faith, and please correct me if I am incorrect.

First, the ME islamic group appears to almost look for reasons to riot/kill/fight/etc. Be it through the Israel/Pakistan conflict (which isn't all Islam's fault, but the faith does play a part in it), to stoning women for having sex before marriage, to basically rioting due to inaccurate/incorrect news (like the recent supposed burning of the quran which didn't happen). Why is this? I understand that most of these are cases of extremist activities, but your community doesn't appear to act to correct these. They appear to neither condone, nor endorse, these acts. In other major religions, when an extremist group commits acts of violence/terror against others it is denounced and the majority of the religon will denounce them and distance themselves from it. With Islam, it doesn't always appear this is the case.

Secondly, why is it cause for people to die if your prophet Mohammed is depicted? I understand that in his teachings he does not want to be depicted, because he was basically humble and didn't want idolized through statues/pictures/etc. That said, is it really that big of a deal if he is depicted in a cartoon? Political satire, comedy, and other forms of entertainment are not reasons to kill others. No other religion takes it that personally when their holy figures are depicted. Maybe I'm missing a critical key to the logic here, but I can't for the life of me figure out why it's such a big deal when it happens in things that are meant to entertain.

Finally, why does Islam have a higher % of radical fundamental factions (or at least ones that act upon their beliefs in name of Islam)?

I'd appreciate hearing your views on these topics, and hope I didn't come across as a dick.

 

[L00PY]

but this still doesnt change the fact that the imam wants shariah law in the us, doesnt condemn hamas, and is being insensitive to thousands of families who lost someone they knew on 911.

From their FAQ:

“Imam Feisal wants to establish a ‘shariah state’ in America.”
Actually, quite the contrary. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf believes that all Muslims must adhere to the laws of the land in which they reside, including in America. This is a basic tenet of Islam. He has repeatedly stated that America is already one of the most “Shariah compliant” countries in the world because of America’s adherence to our Bill of Rights and because we allow members of all religions, including Muslims and Jews, to practice their faith freely. In other words, Imam Feisal believes that Muslims practice Shariah when they fast, pray, give to charity and uphold the commandments to protect life, liberty, dignity, the pursuit of happiness and the right to freedom of worship.

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf won’t condemn terrorism”
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has always condemned terrorism. Here are his words from his 2004 book, What’s Right with Islam is What’s Right with America: “The truth is that killing innocent people is always wrong – and no argument or excuse, no matter how deeply believed, can ever make it right. No religion on earth condones the killing of innocent people; no faith tradition tolerates the random killing of our brothers and sisters on this earth. God does not want us to kill each other.” He has repeated the same thing in hundreds of speeches around the world.

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has not condemned Hamas”
Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions should be condemned. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his 2004 book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those Muslims who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it.


Isn’t the location insensitive given that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims?
 

The events of 9/11 were horrific. What happened that day was terrorism, and it shames us that it was cloaked in the guise of Islam. It was inhumane, un-Islamic and is indefensible regardless of one’s religious persuasion. Not only Americans but also all Muslims are threatened by the lies and actions being perpetrated by these self-serving extremists and their perverted view of Islam. The community center will be a platform to amplify the voices of the overwhelming majority of Muslims whose love for America and commitment to peace gets drowned out by the actions of a few extremists. It will become a platform where the voices of those who resist religious extremism and terrorism can be amplified and celebrated.

 

[Orignal Earl]

And I wouldn't either...but I believe it was zoiks who was the one advocating disrespect. Why are you addressing this with me...am I missing something here? Did you find my comment disrespectful in some way?

I was just continuing our conversation.
Just like I'm going to now.
Lots of people have done things that have brought on death threats from Christians.
If you were to total the amount of death threats from a religious group on this side of the pond, Christians no doubt would be the top answer.
It's only because of this focus on Islam right now that the others get a pass, or forgotten about.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

nsfw images are not allowed to be directly displayed as avatars or inline images unless in a forum that is restricted

that's bigoted!


😉

 

[Orignal Earl]

that's bigoted!


😉

I'm still left wondering where the NSFW line is drawn.
Is it because there could be nudity involved? What if stick figures were used.
Then I have to wonder if you have a Muslim in the cubical beside you, then the Mo AV's probably are NSFW either.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I'm still left wondering where the NSFW line is drawn.
Is it because there could be nudity involved? What if stick figures were used.
Then I have to wonder if you have a Muslim in the cubical beside you, then the Mo AV's probably are NSFW either.

scat and piss pics are not allowed. Kinda makes sense, doesn't it?

I think they are going by free press rules here which would allow the mohammed depiction but no sexual depiction of any sort.

If you had a burning bible as your avatar, Common wouldn't ask you to remove that, actually, i think he'd laugh about it for a bit.

 

[Orignal Earl]

scat and piss pics are not allowed. Kinda makes sense, doesn't it?

I think they are going by free press rules here which would allow the mohammed depiction but no sexual depiction of any sort.

If you had a burning bible as your avatar, Common wouldn't ask you to remove that, actually, i think he'd laugh about it for a bit.

Alrighty

Sheesh no scat n piss but I've seen horrific pics here when peeps start doing the photolog battles of who's worst in these Pals vs Israel threads.
Actually in a lot of those pics the people are probably covered in their own waste.

 

[routan]

well said, but your rational and logical post will most likely be dismissed and ignored because it's so hard for the OP to realize we don't hate Islam or Muslims, we just have no place for their oppressive government/religion/way of life here

Joemonkey, I am simply dismissing the post because the mosque is called Park51 and not the Cordoba anything. There's no reason to reply to false notions and nonsense.

 

[bfdd]

Alrighty

Sheesh no scat n piss but I've seen horrific pics here when peeps start doing the photolog battles of who's worst in these Pals vs Israel threads.
Actually in a lot of those pics the people are probably covered in their own waste.

Rofl I'm with you. To me seeing holocaust victim pictures is much more disturbing that seeing someone take a dump. Remember everyone poops, except chicks.

 

[routan]

Why are you addressing that comment to me?

Why not ask routan why his imam and the Islamic financing sources for the project name it "Cordoba?" I would be very curious as to how he and his imam would answer.

The article I quoted has some excellent historical names that would be equally appropriate for an "inter-faith" establishment. Maybe he could propose a less offensive name?

I actually like the ring of "Lepanto" as it resolved a great conflict and thus engendered a period of quiet between Christianity and Islam. Muslims themselves declared the outcome a result of divine will. Islam is the religion of peace, isn't it? And just of the type that I reference, isn't it.

Routan, the developer, El-Gamal, former restaurant worker and hustler of the rich and famous, where is he getting his $100 million to build this place?

You don't have that many people that go to this mosque now, what, about a thousand or so total and they contributed what, $80K total? That is a lot of coin to be dropped into the collection basket but it won't build a $100 million property.

So that we don't have any worries about where the money is coming from maybe you can fill us in on how all of a sudden a hustler like El-Gamal that got into the property development game after leaving his waitering job in 2007 is being funded to a cool $100 mil. Shouldn't everyone be above board and let us know who the silent partners are?

I truly get a chuckle out of the word "inter-faith" when applied to a mosque these days.

Do you know that in the past it was actually possible for Christians, Jews and Muslims to worship together in the same place? Now, in most places in the world you can't even enter unless you are an adherent. In the US many mosques will allow visitors that are not Muslim but there is no kind of "inter-faith" sharing of prayer as the invites are only for the proposed purpose of an attempt at conversion. Correct me if I am wrong.

"Cordoba" is going to be a mighty fine place with a swimming pool and luxury all around to host foreign guests and show off. I heard it is being sold to the public as something like a YMCA.

This "inter-faith" thing - I know there is a proscription against polytheists going into a mosque, so I can't bring my Hindu friends, but how about if I brought a couple of my Hassidic buddies from the diamond district for a romp in the pool? Is the pool going to bar observant Jews? And as my Hindu friends are going to be mighty cold standing outside when they could be splashing around in that upper story pool, maybe the imam could comment on what he actually means by "inter-faith.".

How about it routan? I know something about Islamic history, I read, I study and I have spent time in Islamic lands. I also know quite a bit about how propagandizing works.

My questions are simple and direct. I do not hold you personally responsible for 712 or 9/11.

Are you Wahhabi, Shia? How different are you from someone who follows sharia and how much at risk are you because of it, if you are? Does taquiyya give you a pass to continue this discussion?

PJABBER, actually, I will resond to you, so that the record can be corrected for everyone to note.

I already answered the "Cordoba" claim you're throwing around above. So AT Members, please note that the mosque's name is NOT offensive to the least, unless anyone has an issue with Park51.

As to the funding source, I am not sure why that is an issue. Federal, state and city boards have all seen financial records for the mosque. If they have not found anything suspect, this point is moot. AT members who are worried about funding can address their concerns straight to government sources.

The mosque has ALREADY hosted non-Muslims. So your bullcrap about Hassidics and Hindus not being able to be part of the community center is nonsense.

Hopefully other members will not buy into this person's nonsense.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Alrighty

Sheesh no scat n piss but I've seen horrific pics here when peeps start doing the photolog battles of who's worst in these Pals vs Israel threads.
Actually in a lot of those pics the people are probably covered in their own waste.

Yeah, but violence is another thing in the US, yaknow... You can show a dismembered body and that is ok, but a womans nipple will bring fire and brimstone upon you.

I don't get it either...

Oh and yeah, you do shit and piss yourself when you get shot and then recieve morphine, that's why we follow UKREBEB before going into battle, there is enought to deal with without having to deal with that.

It stands for Uniform Knife Rifle Empty Bowels Empty Bladder

 

[routan]

First, welcome.

Second, you bring a much appreciated counterpoint and are very rational with your posts.

I firmly believe that you should be able to worship any religion you choose, provided it does not infringe upon others rights/freedoms. I support building the mosque in NYC (and elsewhere), because the entire religion cannot be faulted for the acts of a minority extremeist sect. Otherwise you would have to hold Christianity at fault for the Crusades, and many other "extremist" sects that have hurt/killed others.

I am not Islamic (obviously), and only know the ME culture through what gets reported on. I don't see the average ME views/life/thoughts, so I am uneducated on the subject and want to change that. Here are my "problems/concerns" with the Islamic faith, and please correct me if I am incorrect.

First, the ME islamic group appears to almost look for reasons to riot/kill/fight/etc. Be it through the Israel/Pakistan conflict (which isn't all Islam's fault, but the faith does play a part in it), to stoning women for having sex before marriage, to basically rioting due to inaccurate/incorrect news (like the recent supposed burning of the quran which didn't happen). Why is this? I understand that most of these are cases of extremist activities, but your community doesn't appear to act to correct these. They appear to neither condone, nor endorse, these acts. In other major religions, when an extremist group commits acts of violence/terror against others it is denounced and the majority of the religon will denounce them and distance themselves from it. With Islam, it doesn't always appear this is the case.

Secondly, why is it cause for people to die if your prophet Mohammed is depicted? I understand that in his teachings he does not want to be depicted, because he was basically humble and didn't want idolized through statues/pictures/etc. That said, is it really that big of a deal if he is depicted in a cartoon? Political satire, comedy, and other forms of entertainment are not reasons to kill others. No other religion takes it that personally when their holy figures are depicted. Maybe I'm missing a critical key to the logic here, but I can't for the life of me figure out why it's such a big deal when it happens in things that are meant to entertain.

Finally, why does Islam have a higher % of radical fundamental factions (or at least ones that act upon their beliefs in name of Islam)?

I'd appreciate hearing your views on these topics, and hope I didn't come across as a dick.

DisgruntledVirus, thank you for your post. It seems this has become a full-time job 🙂 But it is certainly worth it if a few people like you can at the minimum appreciate thoughts from another viewpoint. It is quite ridiculous to have to answer to Islamohphobes and outright bigots, let alone just plain out idiots.

Every conflict has two sides. Both are, at the minimum, some-what responsible. The War on Iraq was not Islam's fault, nor did it have anything to do with religion. My point is simply to state that conflicts have been and will be part of human nature. The ME region has hosted wars even before Islam. Why this is so I cannot explain. Perhaps the soil is nasty.

Stoning women for pre-marital sex or adultery is one of the most ridiculous acts done in the name of Islam. For either charge, I have no clue why a man is never punished. I already responded to such issues by stating multiple times before that Islamic Law is NOT implemented in most countries with Muslim majorities.

The issue of burning of the Quran would rile fierce passions amongst Muslims. The riots probably continued because the news did not get them in time?

I am denouncing such acts. Many Muslims denounce such acts. How would you like Muslims to denounce such acts so that it shows? Hold protests? Like the ones I'd like to denounce? Numerous times esteemed scholars have issued religious decrees prohibiting suicide bombings. But would THAT news attract viewers, or showing some crazed person ranting about evil America? Its quite a simple deduction.

The depiction of the Prophet is explicitly prohibited in Islam. Is that a cause for people to die? ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY no. It definitely is a big deal for any depiction of the Prophet, burning of the Quran and other inflamatory acts. The people doing this and supporting this KNOW that these acts are a big deal, which is why they do it. Else what speech not do that the act of burning the Quran would?

In terms of %, the best answer I can give you is Muslims represent the about 20% of the world population but only a fraction of economic resources or educational facilities. Many "good" leaders have called for Muslims to introspect. Hopefully this % of radicals will become 0 within our lifetimes.

 

[PJABBER]

PJABBER, actually, I will resond to you, so that the record can be corrected for everyone to note.

I already answered the "Cordoba" claim you're throwing around above. So AT Members, please note that the mosque's name is NOT offensive to the least, unless anyone has an issue with Park51.

As to the funding source, I am not sure why that is an issue. Federal, state and city boards have all seen financial records for the mosque. If they have not found anything suspect, this point is moot. AT members who are worried about funding can address their concerns straight to government sources.

The mosque has ALREADY hosted non-Muslims. So your bullcrap about Hassidics and Hindus not being able to be part of the community center is nonsense.

Hopefully other members will not buy into this person's nonsense.

Why are you so mad, routan? These are questions that were asked by New Yorkers and never addressed by imam Rauf or the developer El-Gamal, et al. Only natural that they would re-appear.

Let's consider the Cordoba House appellation. You fully know that this was the original name of the proposed mosque development. As a PR move, the project was renamed Park51 (how Donnie Trump of El-Gamal and unnamed friends!) Why claim ignorance in a public forum when it takes but a five second search to determine the truth?

For example, we can refer to a New York Daily News article from July 14 -

Cordoba House mosque near Ground Zero slaps new name on itself with Park51

BY Samuel Goldsmith
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Wednesday, July 14th 2010, 4:00 AM

​

The Cordoba House is now Park51.

Developers behind the controversial 13-story Islamic community center and prayer space near Ground Zero announced Tuesday a bland new name for the project.

Spokesman Oz Sultan said the new name puts emphasis on the community center aspect of the project rather than religion.

The name was derived from the address of the planned new building, 51 Park Place.
​

Of course, we should not be surprised that the use of the "Cordoba" reference occurs over and over again. For example, your imam Rauf's special Islamic organizing initiative is called the "Cordoba Initiative," isn't it? Surely you are of aware of it?

Let's see how he deflects the meaning of "Cordoba" for his English language audience and a woefully ignorant of history and historical context American audience -

Why Cordoba?

The name Cordoba was chosen carefully to reflect a period of time during which Islam played a monumental role in the enrichment of human civilization and knowledge. A thousand years ago Muslims, Jews, and Christians coexisted and created a prosperous center of intellectual, spiritual, cultural and commercial life in Cordoba, Spain.

Wow, and here all of Europe thought that the Ummayads were foreign invaders and conquerors and that their plan to lay siege to all of Europe was a pretty frightening thing. I guess they did not read the press releases before they decided to kick them back out. Oh, if those glory days could just come back, THEN those infidels would see the light!

By the way, exactly what is imam Rauf's role in this whole thing? Reading the FAQ for the Cordoba Initiative, he says this -

Cordoba Initiative has no formal or legal connection to the Muslim Community Center that has recently been proposed for lower Manhattan.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a founder of Cordoba Initiative and serves as its board chair.

and then right after,

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan developed the original idea for a cultural center in lower Manhattan, where Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has had a mosque for 27 years. (Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf originally proposed calling the new center the “Cordoba House.”

Do you kind of see why I keep referring to Cordoba House as the name for this project? And why it becomes important for us historically and geopolitically ignorant Americans to kind of start down that flower strewn path of awareness as we aren't talking about Kansas anymore?

Actually, I find the entire Cordoba Initiative WWW site a fascinating read, if you know enough to read between the lines. Then it becomes kind of an ugly thing of manipulation and misdirection, but a perfect example of the application of taquiyya. Oh well, it will not be the first time someone tried to put lipstick on a pig.

I guess here I can segue into a question. Just exactly what is the Cordoba Initiative's partner, the American Society for Muslim Advancement, and why are so many people leery about both its methods and its goals?

I mean, I did a quick look up, again, and found this interesting commentary that goes on for thousands and thousands of words about whom they might be and how they go about their business...

ASMA: American Society for the Advancement of Muslims - faux moderates promoting Islamisation by "Muslim Leaders of Tommorrow"

Absolutely fascinating reading. Can this be right?

Anyway, moving on a bit. Why are financing sources so important? As a finance guy myself, I know that money flows from people who have a special interest in something. That's natural, people look out for their own interests.

I am pretty sure the imam can raise funds, he and his wife, "Daisy" Khan, have this way about them. But $100 million is a lot of money and even as actively engaged as your mosque members may be, that is a lot of money. I would hazard more money than they can raise by passing around the plate, so to speak.

Which means outside investors. Could you pretty please ask the imam the next time you see him to let us know exactly who is make up the $99.98 million shortfall?

I also know that who leads real estate development projects is kinda important. You have to have trust in their integrity and their skill sets.

Which brings us to the developer, Sharif El-Gamal.

I personally value all kinds of life experience. After all, we all have to start somewhere.

Born into a fairly successful family, Sharif's main claim to fame before the immediate present, however, doesn't really impress me much. After all, he was a waiter until 2007, wasn't he? Then, using OPM (other people's money) he bought a few properties to start down a path of being a slum lord, kinda like the good imam himself. BTW, who fronted him this seed capital?

Still, this is NYC we are talking about and if you can make it as a waiter there you can make it anywhere.

But, Sharif wasn't quite making it on the free cash flow from those projects, was he? Didn't pay his taxes on the properties, and he is facing eviction even from his own offices.

But someone, somewhere seems to have a special trust that he can run a $100 million development project even with no experience in doing anything of the sort. Hmmmmm.

Oh, and I still LOVE the idea of a multi-faith Islamic community pool, considering Islam by its own definition is one of the most intolerant of other faiths. Just for laughs, could you double-check with your imam and ask him if he would let a polytheistic faith even near the place, you know, maybe to hold a ceremony or a ritual or take a group swim? As I recall, Islam barely tolerates the presence of those who have a monotheistic faith but absolutely abhors polytheistic faiths. Just sayin'.

BTW, as I have been catching up on my reading about the players in this game it does look like most are Saudis. which mean Wahabbism to me. You did not answer my question as to the variant of Islam you represent. Wahabbi, or not? Any chance we are corresponding with one of the "Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow?"

I'll take a break here as I, for some reason, have this need for a double espresso. How about you?
​

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Why are you so mad, routan? These are questions that were asked by New Yorkers and never addressed by imam Rauf or the developer El-Gamal, et al. Only natural that they would re-appear.

Let's consider the Cordoba House appellation. You fully know that this was the original name of the proposed mosque development. As a PR move, the project was renamed Park51 (how Donnie Trump of El-Gamal and unnamed friends!) Why claim ignorance in a public forum when it takes but a five second search to determine the truth?

For example, we can refer to a New York Daily News article from July 14 -

Of course, we should not be surprised that the use of the "Cordoba" reference occurs over and over again. For example, your imam Rauf's special Islamic organizing initiative is called the "Cordoba Initiative," isn't it? Surely you are of aware of it?

Let's see how he deflects the meaning of "Cordoba" for his English language audience and a woefully ignorant of history and historical context American audience -

Wow, and here all of Europe thought that the Ummayads were foreign invaders and conquerors and that their plan to lay siege to all of Europe was a pretty frightening thing. I guess they did not read the press releases before they decided to kick them back out. Oh, if those glory days could just come back, THEN those infidels would see the light!

By the way, exactly what is imam Rauf's role in this whole thing? Reading the FAQ for the Cordoba Initiative, he says this -

and then right after,

Do you kind of see why I keep referring to Cordoba House as the name for this project? And why it becomes important for us historically and geopolitically ignorant Americans to kind of start down that flower strewn path of awareness as we aren't talking about Kansas anymore?

Actually, I find the entire Cordoba Initiative WWW site a fascinating read, if you know enough to read between the lines. Then it becomes kind of an ugly thing of manipulation and misdirection, but a perfect example of the application of taquiyya. Oh well, it will not be the first time someone tried to put lipstick on a pig.

I guess here I can segue into a question. Just exactly what is the Cordoba Initiative's partner, the American Society for Muslim Advancement, and why are so many people leery about both its methods and its goals?

I mean, I did a quick look up, again, and found this interesting commentary that goes on for thousands and thousands of words about whom they might be and how they go about their business...

ASMA: American Society for the Advancement of Muslims - faux moderates promoting Islamisation by "Muslim Leaders of Tommorrow"

Absolutely fascinating reading. Can this be right?

Anyway, moving on a bit. Why are financing sources so important? As a finance guy myself, I know that money flows from people who have a special interest in something. That's natural, people look out for their own interests.

I am pretty sure the imam can raise funds, he and his wife, "Daisy" Khan, have this way about them. But $100 million is a lot of money and even as actively engaged as your mosque members may be, that is a lot of money. I would hazard more money than they can raise by passing around the plate, so to speak.

Which means outside investors. Could you pretty please ask the imam the next time you see him to let us know exactly who is make up the $99.98 million shortfall?

I also know that who leads real estate development projects is kinda important. You have to have trust in their integrity and their skill sets.

Which brings us to the developer, Sharif El-Gamal.

I personally value all kinds of life experience. After all, we all have to start somewhere.

Born into a fairly successful family, Sharif's main claim to fame before the immediate present, however, doesn't really impress me much. After all, he was a waiter until 2007, wasn't he? Then, using OPM (other people's money) he bought a few properties to start down a path of being a slum lord, kinda like the good imam himself. BTW, who fronted him this seed capital?

Still, this is NYC we are talking about and if you can make it as a waiter there you can make it anywhere.

But, Sharif wasn't quite making it on the free cash flow from those projects, was he? Didn't pay his taxes on the properties, and he is facing eviction even from his own offices.

But someone, somewhere seems to have a special trust that he can run a $100 million development project even with no experience in doing anything of the sort. Hmmmmm.

Oh, and I still LOVE the idea of a multi-faith Islamic community pool, considering Islam by its own definition is one of the most intolerant of other faiths. Just for laughs, could you double-check with your imam and ask him if he would let a polytheistic faith even near the place, you know, maybe to hold a ceremony or a ritual or take a group swim? As I recall, Islam barely tolerates the presence of those who have a monotheistic faith but absolutely abhors polytheistic faiths. Just sayin'.

I'll take a break here as I, for some reason, have this need for a double espresso. How about you?
​

For those of us with actual knowledge about Cordoba attained from history and not from fascist talking heads it means a city where the three religions of Abraham lived in peace.

Of course, you being a politician who pretends to once have been in the service means you have to distort and find things to back up your distortion.

You are the weakest fucking troll on this entire board.

Now run along, you daft little twat, don't you have something new to make up to concentrate the hate of "we the people" on?

Fucking twat.