A Muslim's perspective

[PJABBER]

PJABBER and Doc Savage Fan... You guys are missing the point. You don't stop sharia law by making moderate Muslims all over the world think we're their enemy and are fighting a crusade against them. You do it by welcoming moderate Muslims when they build an interfaith community center and mosque 2 blocks from Ground Zero.

You guys are basically arguing that in order to stop Southern Baptists who want to teach creationism in schools, I have to protest Catholic churches and burn prayer books to the Virgin Mary. It's a complete non sequitur.

I suggest there are no moderate Muslims. There are those who practice sharia as required and those who don't. The latter can be considered lapsed Muslims or apostates and are subject to extreme penalties by their fellow believers.

The fact is that any totalitarian system of governance, which Islam is even as it claims divine right to do so, should be rejected by civilized people and limited if not proscribed by enlightened nations. I argue the same against communism, fascism and all other enslaving totalitarian cults.

Here we have the right to speak our minds and live lives free from religious tyranny and an onerous State religion. This is the exact opposite of what Islam and sharia are all about for they necessarily combine religion with governance.

The proposed "Cordoba Center" is not inter-faith. Islam does not accept the legitimacy of any other belief system. For example, you could not hold a Catholic Mass there or a Jewish bar mitzvah.

Generally, Islam is highly segregationist and misogynistic. Non-muslim and want a real kick? Try to visit Mecca or Medina.

The NY Cordoba Center is meant as a manifest demonstration of the power of Islam to establish itself n the belly of the beast, the Great Satan USA itself, in NYC immediately proximate to the site of Islam's most successful attack against unbelievers in recent times. To think otherwise is delusional.

The name itself derives from the great mosque of Cordoba, Spain which marked and celebrated the farthest incursion of Islamic forces into the heart of Europe. History may be meaningless to many here but the significance is apparent to Muslim populations around the world.

I found this little article explains the issue with sufficient detail...

Cordoba was, of course, the seat of the caliphate established in what is now modern Spain after the Islamic invasion from North Africa in the 8th century A.D. The medieval occupation of Spain – “al-Andalus” – is considered by Islamic theorists to have been an inevitable step in the manifest destiny of Islam, and its eventual reversal through the lengthy European “Reconquista” a tragic but temporary triumph of the infidels. The great mosque at Cordoba was built on the foundation of a Christian cathedral, and when Europeans retook Cordoba in the 13th century they turned the magnificent mosque back into a cathedral.

There is no question that the opulence and beauty of the mosque were the products of Muslim builders and artists. But there is also no question that the mosque at Cordoba represents a history of conquest and reconquest that, from the perspective of Islamists, is at an unfinished stage as of today. The caliphate of Cordoba was the geographic high point of Umayyad Muslim rule – that is, of the original caliphate that succeeded Mohammed – on European territory. It represents a glory that Islamists intend to restore. Its eventual loss to the Europeans represents, equally, an evil reversal, imposed by infidels, that requires redress.

“Cordoba,” in Islamic symbolic terms, means Islamic rule in the West. It does not mean “coexistence,” unless coexistence is interpreted as referring to Islamic rule. Pamela Geller at Atlas Shrugs cites the article (original in Arabic) published by Iraqi-American Khudhayr Taher on 18 May, in which Taher explains the following:

We must note that a hostile and provocative name [Cordoba] has been chosen for this mosque…Choosing the name ‘Cordoba House’ for the mosque to be constructed in New York was not coincidental or random and innocent. It bears within it significance and dreams of expansion and invasion [into the territory] of the other, [while] striving to change his religion and to subjugate him…

It used to not even be a stretch for reasonably well educated Westerners to recognize the place of Spain and Cordoba in the history of the West and Islam. Many of today’s younger adults, however, have learned nothing about the Mediterranean before 1492 except that the Muslim period in Spain was a flowering of science, art, and culture. There was a great deal to admire in the accomplishments of the Muslim Cordobans, but they did, in fact, invade and conquer Spain, sell its inhabitants into slavery, provide a base for slaver raids into other parts of Europe, and rule by the sword in much of the caliphate.

“Cordoba” is not a name that evokes peaceful coexistence of Islam and the West. Perhaps a contest should be held to come up with a name that does; I don’t know that I can think of one offhand. That shouldn’t surprise us. Our own lifetimes all began less than a century on from the demise of the Ottoman Empire, the entity that shifted over the centuries of its existence from fighting against Europe to buffering it from the restive tribes and sheikdoms in its hinterland. Most of us today don’t have much of a cultural memory of Islamic invasion; the peoples of Southeast Europe would be the exception. But the rest of us have grown so accustomed to the absolute character of the Pax Americana that we tend to dismiss, out of our privileged disconnectedness from history, the implications that the peoples of other times and places would have recognized – with greater wisdom – as meaningful.

A mosque at Ground Zero is something intelligent people can dispute honestly and in good faith. But honesty is essential, and it would be dishonest to dismiss the implications of proposing to name it Cordoba House. Let’s propose naming it instead Tours House, after the Battle of Tours and the defeat of the Umayyad Muslim forces there in 732; or Lepanto House, after the naval battle in the Eastern Mediterranean in 1571, in which the Western forces broke the maritime power of the Ottoman Empire; or Vienna House, after the battle of 1683 in which the Western armies broke the siege of Vienna by the Ottoman invaders.

 

[OutHouse]

pjabber:

thanks for the info, i did not know about that.

 

[Infohawk]

I suggest there are no moderate Muslims. There are those who practice sharia as required and those who don't.

The funny thing is left-wingers rant about 9/11 hijackers not being true Muslims. Based on what standard? They were the true Muslims based on the Quran.

 

[Throckmorton]

I stated on several occasions that I'm OK with the NYC mosque. Also, I never advocated that we make enemies of moderate Muslims or make them think we are their enemies. And you say I'm the one missing the point? Wow.

I have trouble keeping you wingnuts straight

 

[Throckmorton]

The funny thing is left-wingers rant about 9/11 hijackers not being true Muslims. Based on what standard? They were the true Muslims based on the Quran.

Of course they're true Muslims. They're the fundamentalists following the literal word of the Koran. It's BS to say they aren't true Muslims, or that the KKK isn't true Christians, etc.

And being a liberal atheist, I prefer lax Muslims aka moderates, just like I prefer Catholics to Southern Baptists. Those are the ones I want living next to me. They're also the majority of Muslims in the world, which is why we shouldn't act like morons and burn their religious book and protest their mosques. That's what causes people to sympathize less with us and more with the fundamentalists.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I have trouble keeping you wingnuts straight

...which appears to be the least of your problems.

 

[routan]

Thanks. However, what does Sharia Law - as you interpret it - say with regard to apostasy? Does the 'current times where education and just common sensibilities' override classical Sharia Law in this case?

I think that your version of it seems fine, where it is not strictly followed as written 1000+ years ago.

RabidMongoose, I am not qualified to interpret Sharia Law. As I stated before, the consensus should come from educated scholars - both in law and religion.

Also, I dont have a "version". I expanded completely on what Sharia Law is as per Islam. What you describe as "strict" following is actually a rubbish/skewed interpretation.

If you are asking me for my personal opinion about apostasy in Islam, I believe that anyone and everyone should have the right to choose his/her religion. Hence, if a person wishes to convert out of his/her religion, more power to him/her. He/she must not have been a good practitioner to begin with or is disenchanted by the faith. Better to let him/her be happy than force someone to stay adherent to any faith.

From a theological perspective, I can only state my opinion that the original intent over a 1000 years ago was a law similar to treason laws that exist today. I do not think someone's faith could become a reason for treason in these times.

 

[RabidMongoose]

RabidMongoose, I am not qualified to interpret Sharia Law. As I stated before, the consensus should come from educated scholars - both in law and religion.

Also, I dont have a "version". I expanded completely on what Sharia Law is as per Islam. What you describe as "strict" following is actually a rubbish/skewed interpretation.

If you are asking me for my personal opinion about apostasy in Islam, I believe that anyone and everyone should have the right to choose his/her religion. Hence, if a person wishes to convert out of his/her religion, more power to him/her. He/she must not have been a good practitioner to begin with or is disenchanted by the faith. Better to let him/her be happy than force someone to stay adherent to any faith.

From a theological perspective, I can only state my opinion that the original intent over a 1000 years ago was a law similar to treason laws that exist today. I do not think someone's faith could become a reason for treason in these times.

Sounds reasonable.

One other question - is there ever a 'consensus' though? It just seems like you're saying that there are different interpretations of how to apply Sharia Law today. Educated scholars in law and religion are probably not going to come to a consensus, especially when we're talking about an ideology followed by over a billion people.

 

[Infohawk]

They're also the majority of Muslims in the world, which is why we shouldn't act like morons and burn their religious book and protest their mosques. That's what causes people to sympathize less with us and more with the fundamentalists.

They don't care about you. Stop worrying so much about what they think.

 

[routan]

Sounds reasonable.

One other question - is there ever a 'consensus' though? It just seems like you're saying that there are different interpretations of how to apply Sharia Law today. Educated scholars in law and religion are probably not going to come to a consensus, especially when we're talking about an ideology followed by over a billion people.

RabidMongoose, lol, very good question.

The simple answer, in these times, no, there is definitely not a consensus. We recently celebrated Eid-ul-Fitr, the Islamic christmas. Mosques in the same vicinity declared different days as Eid. *facepalm extreme*

Nonetheless, both you and I agree that the current state of affairs for Muslim is backwards to a high degree, with uneducated, illiterate people running the show for the majority of the Muslim population.

In times decades ago, yes, there was a concensus, and yes, the interpretations were sound *for those times*, of course barring exceptions. As with every community/race/people/empire, there is a rise and fall. Let both you and I hope that the Muslim people regain their lost intelligence and become proper practicing Muslims rather than radicals, so that the world retains some semblence of peace and inter-faith harmony. It has existed in the past. It can again 🙂

 

[Deudalus]

In times decades ago, yes, there was a concensus, and yes, the interpretations were sound *for those times*, of course barring exceptions. As with every community/race/people/empire, there is a rise and fall. Let both you and I hope that the Muslim people regain their lost intelligence and become proper practicing Muslims rather than radicals, so that the world retains some semblence of peace and inter-faith harmony. It has existed in the past. It can again 🙂

I think you are coming close to touching on what I think the root of the problem is.

Too many muslims are uneducated and poor. The more poor and uneducated you are the more prone you are (generally) to radicalism and generally terrorist activities.

Most Americans, Western Euros, and whatnot value human life (particularly their own) too much to do some of the crazy shit that Muslims do.

That said we have far better lives (at least from a structural food, water, employment, basic necessities perspective) than the average Afghan for example.


To me that explains why people do or do not turn to radicalism however it does not excuse their actions.

From what I have read you continually say, "they are misguided Muslims that do these things" but they are still Muslims doing these things directly under the banner of Islam. Further you cannot ignore the fact that they are willing to do these things because they are uneducated, poor, and oppressed by other Muslims.

While the western world does have a part in it, it is moreso Muslim people that are keeping their people (especially women) uneducated.


I think what would go a long way is to hear Muslim leaders speak on fixing the issues that they can fix rather than lash out at some redneck who wants to burn a Quran.

I feel the exact same way towards the race baiters like Jesse Jackson who continually blame others for the problems in the black communities here.

To me personally, I would rather see 1,000 Qurans burned than see one poor woman be stoned to death in the street or have some girl get "honor killed" because she was raped.

It isn't like me to say this but when as a general rule as long as the people of the Middle East are more outraged that some asshole in some area that they will never see threatens to burn a book rather than this:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007269,00.html

Most of us will have very little sympathy for you.

 

[routan]

I think you are coming close to touching on what I think the root of the problem is.

Too many muslims are uneducated and poor. The more poor and uneducated you are the more prone you are (generally) to radicalism and generally terrorist activities.

Most Americans, Western Euros, and whatnot value human life (particularly their own) too much to do some of the crazy shit that Muslims do.

That said we have far better lives (at least from a structural food, water, employment, basic necessities perspective) than the average Afghan for example.


To me that explains why people do or do not turn to radicalism however it does not excuse their actions.

From what I have read you continually say, "they are misguided Muslims that do these things" but they are still Muslims doing these things directly under the banner of Islam. Further you cannot ignore the fact that they are willing to do these things because they are uneducated, poor, and oppressed by other Muslims.

While the western world does have a part in it, it is moreso Muslim people that are keeping their people (especially women) uneducated.


I think what would go a long way is to hear Muslim leaders speak on fixing the issues that they can fix rather than lash out at some redneck who wants to burn a Quran.

I feel the exact same way towards the race baiters like Jesse Jackson who continually blame others for the problems in the black communities here.

To me personally, I would rather see 1,000 Qurans burned than see one poor woman be stoned to death in the street or have some girl get "honor killed" because she was raped.

It isn't like me to say this but when as a general rule as long as the people of the Middle East are more outraged that some asshole in some area that they will never see threatens to burn a book rather than this:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007269,00.html

Most of us will have very little sympathy for you.

Deudalus, thank you for your post. I am glad we are both in agreement to the root cause of the problems.

I cannot say more than they ARE misguided Muslims, because they are indeed not acting according to Islamic tenets they profess to adhere to.

I can also understand your frustration at lack of Islamic leadership and efforts to promote education and awareness, and I am in agreement to this as well. I can only say, give the educated Muslims in the West some time. Leaders only make speeches. Muslims in the West actively contribute to the uplift of Muslims, either through contributions, support through NGOs and other measures. Rome wasnt built in a day. Give it time.

As to Quran burning vs. women being stoned, it is not a competition. To this point, my opinion is that the efforts of educated Muslims in the West are diminished by these inflamatory actions, and SUPPORT for these inflamatory acts are as worse as what you quote Jesse Jackson's blame game.

 

[Orignal Earl]

So by the looks of it, most people are perfectly fine with selling arms to the nation that gave us the 911 guys.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2105802

Instead we'll focus our anger on some American Muslims who had nothing to do with it, but have the gall to build a community center near the site.

 

[Cerb]

So by the looks of it, most people are perfectly fine with selling arms to the nation that gave us the 911 guys.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2105802

Instead we'll focus our anger on some American Muslims who had nothing to do with it, but have the gall to build a community center near the site.

It's the American Way. The enemy of my enemy of my mostly harmless country with every right to nuclear technology is my friend; even though he stabbed me last week, and has been taking my lunch money since I met him.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

A quote from the OP, “ I will disregard any suggestion that puts me in direct conflict with these mad men. I value my life, and dont want to be a victim of a suicide bomb.” Hmm, amazing, are you oblivious to the fact that millions of men, and women, myself included, have fought, suffered, and died, and will continue to do so,
for the very freedoms you enjoy? Guns, and bombs be damned! These, “mad men”, that you so avidly seek to distance yourself from, were in fact, your Muslim brethren, acting on, and to the letter, the very explicit COMMANDS of your, “holy book”. You may claim that Islam has been hijacked, and that the Qu’ran has been misinterpreted, misquoted, or rewritten,-- well that dog won’t hunt! Nothing can be further from the truth. The Qu’ran has not changed one bit since it was written, and is VERY specific in it’s content, dictates, and commands. A true Muslim CANNOT pick and choose which scriptures to follow, and which to ignore. In short, there is no such thing as a cool, hip, with it, modern, moderate, “conformist” Muslim! Nor, is there any such thing as a “radicalized”, or “fanatic” Muslim. You either are one, or you are not.
The OP, with a smiley face states that the name of the victory mosque near the WTC is Park51, and not Cordoba. The name was changed only after they were caught with their pants down. Meanwhile, the Iman Raul flies to the middle east, and is recorded on Arabic media, speaking in Arabic, that this is indeed a victory, and it is the beginning of the establishment of Sharia law in the USA, can you say TAQIYYA? Are there sects, cults, offshoots, and weirdo’s, (like Westboro), claiming to be part of an established religion here in the states? Oh, indeed. Should churches do a better job of policing, distancing themselves, condemning, such people? Sure, but at no time were heads, or hands loped off, women beaten, or stoned, rattlesnakes harmed, and if I recall, union labor was used to mop-up the tears of Jimmy Swaggart, and Tammy Faye. Can we also stop with the rehash, and references of what Christian religion, and churches did centuries ago. ALL religions, of all faiths, have, over the years changed, adapted, morphed, and have rewritten tenants, and creeds to at least bring themselves forward into the twentieth century, (mass in English, Whoa, now there’s a concept), EXCEPT FOR, wait for it, ---- ISLAM!!
The OP asks, “Do you see Muslims in America running around giving hate speeches----?”. Hmm, let me think, how’s this little nugget, “God will destroy America by the hands of Muslims…. God will not give Japan or Europe the honor of bringing down the United States; this is an honor God will bestow upon Muslims.” Does the name Louis Farrakhan ring a bell? The OP bemoans the burning, or the threats to do so, texts of some nut job written centuries ago. You don’t suppose this new up-tic would have anything to do with the building of a victory mosque near ground zero do you? Talk about salt in a wound! Also, can you please stop referring to it as a community center, like a bunch of bikini clad Jewish girls can come and use your pool, (sorry, bad analogy, but it’s working for me). Your laws dictate that it is indeed a mosque, AND AN EMBASSY FOR ISLAM.
The more than generous offer made to get the mosque moved was turned down, not for the ideological reasons you would have us believe, But merely a shake down, ala Jesse Jackson tactic. Seems your vaulted Imam is also a rather despicable slum lord as well,
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ground_zero_mosque_imam_faisal_rauf_o173R8S3JZnekEC4V08H9L
The Op states that he does not believe in god, any god. So who’s this Allah dude you worship, and who’s name is chanted by your brethren as they slowly saw off the head of an innocent, non-combatant jounalist. The OP, others, and the UN have reminded us that we have the blood of a bazillion, (give or take a few hundred million), Muslims on our hands. Ha, that ain’t nothing, you should see what we can do when we’re really pissed off. Go ahead, poke us again. We are a caring, giving, tolerant, generous, forgiving nation, and lord knows our hands are riddled with the bite marks of the mouths we feed. But this should never be misconstrued as weakness. While other countries have capitulated, placated, and surrendered, by first saying, hey, these Sharia laws aren’t so bad; there are a lot of similarities to ours, I can assure you, WE WILL NOT!
I feel sorry for the OP. The inner turmoil he must be going through. To futilely to try and combine the 6th century with the 21st. To enjoy the opportunities, and the freedoms this country has afforded him, all the while knowing that by doing so he may suffer condemnation, ridicule, and even a death sentence imposed and carried out by his own fellow Muslims, the purveyors of Islam, the religion of peace. I wish you, and yours well OP, I even love you, for MY god commands it. I know, she is such a terrible taskmaster.
RUNZ
P.S. Am I the only one who finds it just a bit odd that the company who pays the OP, “A TON OF MONEY ”, more so than even a doctor, still gets, “PATTED DOWN” by his works security? Hmmm, just sayin

 

[Orignal Earl]

snip

As-Salāmu `Alaykum

 

[PJABBER]

http://forums.anandtech.com/member.php?u=80346Great post runzwithsizorz!

There are obviously a number of participants in this forum that have absolutely no idea what Islamism is or what the sharia agenda is, though they have certainly been confronted with how they seek to achieve these goals.

As runzwithsizorz writes, it is highly important for everyone reading here to understand how important TAQIYYA is in encouraging the spreading of misinformation and lies, otherwise known as propaganda, by Muslims in the furtherance of an Islamic agenda. Putting it simply, a Muslim can say ANYTHING, lie about anything, deceive about everything, so long as it furthers the cause of Islam and sharia.

Do not compare Western Christianity with sharia. They are completely different in how they approach the most important questions of individual liberties and human rights. The closest analog to sharia might be communism or fascism if those movements were based wholly on the totalitarian vision of one man, Muhammad.

I wrote two long posts in the last day to add a different perspective to the distortions that have crept into the discussion here. They are #490 and #501. I don't often ask anyone to read or re-read anything that I write, choose or reject as you will. If you don't trust what I write, do some independent research on what life in Muslim lands actually is and then decide if this is the life that you will accept here after all your liberal rights are taken away from you.

There is no flexibility in sharia, there is no form of liberal Islam, there is no reformed version, there is only strict Islam and apostates, apostates who are slated to be enslaved or killed as is convenient.

I posted a link to a short video a day ago, I'll do the same again in this post. It addresses only three things about Islam but those points are worth repeating and keeping in mind when you discuss what Islam is and what the Islamic agenda is.

Three Things About Islam

 

[Throckmorton]

They don't care about you. Stop worrying so much about what they think.

You don't think they care about the people who are occupying two of their countries and have a significant role in Middle Eastern international relations?

I guarantee you it matters whether they think we're in a crusade against them. Ever heard of "hearts and minds"? Maybe you should read the COIN manual so you can understand that whether we win or lose the wars depends on how they see us and how they see extremists like the Taliban.

 

[Throckmorton]

I suggest there are no moderate Muslims. There are those who practice sharia as required and those who don't. The latter can be considered lapsed Muslims or apostates and are subject to extreme penalties by their fellow believers.

The fact is that any totalitarian system of governance, which Islam is even as it claims divine right to do so, should be rejected by civilized people and limited if not proscribed by enlightened nations. I argue the same against communism, fascism and all other enslaving totalitarian cults.

Here we have the right to speak our minds and live lives free from religious tyranny and an onerous State religion. This is the exact opposite of what Islam and sharia are all about for they necessarily combine religion with governance.

The proposed "Cordoba Center" is not inter-faith. Islam does not accept the legitimacy of any other belief system. For example, you could not hold a Catholic Mass there or a Jewish bar mitzvah.

Generally, Islam is highly segregationist and misogynistic. Non-muslim and want a real kick? Try to visit Mecca or Medina.

The NY Cordoba Center is meant as a manifest demonstration of the power of Islam to establish itself n the belly of the beast, the Great Satan USA itself, in NYC immediately proximate to the site of Islam's most successful attack against unbelievers in recent times. To think otherwise is delusional.

The name itself derives from the great mosque of Cordoba, Spain which marked and celebrated the farthest incursion of Islamic forces into the heart of Europe. History may be meaningless to many here but the significance is apparent to Muslim populations around the world.

I found this little article explains the issue with sufficient detail...

Right, so liberal New York Muslims name their mosque "Cordoba" so of course that must mean they're celebrating some kind of victory. That's one hell of a reach.

I guess Waterloo Records was named to celebrate British victory over the French?

Little Caesar's pizza is named to celebrate the Roman conquest of European people? I guess it would be insensitive to build one in a German neighborhood...

 

[runzwithsizorz]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum

Back at you, or a fine howdy doody to you too sir.

 

[Infohawk]

Right, so liberal New York Muslims name their mosque "Cordoba" so of course that must mean they're celebrating some kind of victory. That's one hell of a reach.

I guess Waterloo Records was named to celebrate British victory over the French?

Little Caesar's pizza is named to celebrate the Roman conquest of European people? I guess it would be insensitive to build one in a German neighborhood...

Awful analogy. I assume the people behind Waterloo Records are not British. I think it's also fair to say the people behind Little Caesar's are not Romans. The Cordoba center is being built by Muslims. Do you not see the difference? It would be insensitive for Germany to call their embassy in Poland the Blitzkrieg center or for the British to call their embassy in Paris the Waterloo center.

 

[PJABBER]

Right, so liberal New York Muslims name their mosque "Cordoba" so of course that must mean they're celebrating some kind of victory. That's one hell of a reach.

Why are you addressing that comment to me?

Why not ask routan why his imam and the Islamic financing sources for the project name it "Cordoba?" I would be very curious as to how he and his imam would answer.

The article I quoted has some excellent historical names that would be equally appropriate for an "inter-faith" establishment. Maybe he could propose a less offensive name?

I actually like the ring of "Lepanto" as it resolved a great conflict and thus engendered a period of quiet between Christianity and Islam. Muslims themselves declared the outcome a result of divine will. Islam is the religion of peace, isn't it? And just of the type that I reference, isn't it.

Routan, the developer, El-Gamal, former restaurant worker and hustler of the rich and famous, where is he getting his $100 million to build this place?

You don't have that many people that go to this mosque now, what, about a thousand or so total and they contributed what, $80K total? That is a lot of coin to be dropped into the collection basket but it won't build a $100 million property.

So that we don't have any worries about where the money is coming from maybe you can fill us in on how all of a sudden a hustler like El-Gamal that got into the property development game after leaving his waitering job in 2007 is being funded to a cool $100 mil. Shouldn't everyone be above board and let us know who the silent partners are?

I truly get a chuckle out of the word "inter-faith" when applied to a mosque these days.

Do you know that in the past it was actually possible for Christians, Jews and Muslims to worship together in the same place? Now, in most places in the world you can't even enter unless you are an adherent. In the US many mosques will allow visitors that are not Muslim but there is no kind of "inter-faith" sharing of prayer as the invites are only for the proposed purpose of an attempt at conversion. Correct me if I am wrong.

"Cordoba" is going to be a mighty fine place with a swimming pool and luxury all around to host foreign guests and show off. I heard it is being sold to the public as something like a YMCA.

This "inter-faith" thing - I know there is a proscription against polytheists going into a mosque, so I can't bring my Hindu friends, but how about if I brought a couple of my Hassidic buddies from the diamond district for a romp in the pool? Is the pool going to bar observant Jews? And as my Hindu friends are going to be mighty cold standing outside when they could be splashing around in that upper story pool, maybe the imam could comment on what he actually means by "inter-faith.".

How about it routan? I know something about Islamic history, I read, I study and I have spent time in Islamic lands. I also know quite a bit about how propagandizing works.

My questions are simple and direct. I do not hold you personally responsible for 712 or 9/11.

Are you Wahhabi, Shia? How different are you from someone who follows sharia and how much at risk are you because of it, if you are? Does taquiyya give you a pass to continue this discussion?

 

[Joemonkey]

Why are you addressing that comment to me?

Why not ask routan why his imam and the Islamic financing sources for the project name it "Cordoba?" I would be very curious as to how he and his imam would answer.

The article I quoted has some excellent historical names that would be equally appropriate for an "inter-faith" establishment. Maybe he could propose a less offensive name?

I actually like the ring of "Lepanto" as it resolved a great conflict and thus engendered a period of quiet between Christianity and Islam. Muslims themselves declared the outcome a result of divine will. Islam is the religion of peace, isn't it? And just of the type that I reference, isn't it.

Routan, the developer, El-Gamal, former restaurant worker and hustler of the rich and famous, where is he getting his $100 million to build this place?

You don't have that many people that go to this mosque now, what, about a hundred or so? That is a lot of coin to be dropped into the collection basket. So that we don't have any worries about where the money is coming from and why all of a sudden a hustler like El-Gamal is being funded to a cool $100 mil, shouldn't everyone be above board and let us know who the silent partners are?

I truly get a chuckle out of the word "inter-faith" when applied to a mosque these days.

Do you know that in the past it was actually possible for Christians, Jews and Muslims to worship together in the same place? Now, in most places in the world you can't even enter unless you are an adherent. In the US many mosques will allow visitors that are not Muslim but there is no kind of "inter-faith" sharing of prayer as the invites are only for the proposed purpose of an attempt at conversion. Correct me if I am wrong.

"Cordoba" is going to be a mighty fine place with a swimming pool and luxury all around to host foreign guests and show off. I heard it is being sold to the public as something like a YMCA.

This "inter-faith" thing - I know there is a proscription against polytheists going into a mosque, so I can't bring my Hindu friends, but how about if I brought a couple of my Hassidic buddies from the diamond district for a romp in the pool? Is the pool going to bar observant Jews? And as my Hindu friends are going to be mighty cold standing outside when they could be splashing around in that upper story pool, maybe the imam could comment on what he actually means by "inter-faith.".

How about it routan? I know something about Islamic history, I read, I study and I have spent time in Islamic lands. I also know quite a bit about how propagandizing works.

My questions are simple and direct. I do not hold you responsible for 712 or 9/11. How different are you from someone who follows sharia and how much at risk are you because of it? Or does taquiyya give you a pass to continue this discussion?

well said, but your rational and logical post will most likely be dismissed and ignored because it's so hard for the OP to realize we don't hate Islam or Muslims, we just have no place for their oppressive government/religion/way of life here

 

[PJABBER]

well said, but your rational and logical post will most likely be dismissed and ignored because it's so hard for the OP to realize we don't hate Islam or Muslims, we just have no place for their oppressive government/religion/way of life here

Oh, I think he fully knows that unless someone has suffered personally with the torture, mutilation or death of a family member, friend or acquaintance at the hands of an Islamist that the word "hate" will not apply. Of course, we are talking about NY and with 3,000 dead there some reserve should be recognized.

I believe the OP is disingenuous. He seeks no honest exchange of viewpoints.

He advocates for homicidal maniacs like Hamas because they are "for" the Palestinians while gently decrying their destructive methods. Could we hope for a public denunciation from the imam on this? He has refused to do so, hasn't he? So much for a "moderate."

He claims room for compromise but when pushed he acknowledges that accommodation will only be coming from everyone but the Islamists. They are so unlearned and unreasonable, much less so than he, that we must give them special dispensation.

He is a member of a very active mosque. He knows the players. Yet he is like Obama sitting in his church pew claiming he didn't hear the important incendiary parts that would have caused anyone else to perk up their ears.

The greatest fraud that is perpetrated is that of the claim that there is some kind of intentional separation between Islam and the state.

There is, of course, incomplete adherence to sharia in most places, but that is due to the inefficiencies and corruption of poor places. But the intent to subsume and replace all systems contrary to sharia is the prime directive of the Koran. All else is window decoration and misdirection.

How sweet it sounds when fools like Earl blather about how similar sharia is to English common law and American constitutional law. How stupid it really is to try to find faint equivalencies.

The again, maybe he is convinced it would be easy to first offer the Muslims a separate judicial system so that their sensibilities are not offended by the inadequacies of the US Constitution. How easy it would be to supplant the liberties and rights that so many have died for so that we could, pretty please, carve out an Islamic Republic (community) to live side by side with us infidels by Islamic standards.

This is no tolerant or accepting ideology. You fail to succumb to the blandishments and they will tell you that you have been warned to convert. Next comes violence to the extent they are capable of rendering it.

Sounds silly here in the US with Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up, doesn't it? Oh yeah, our current atheistic government is eliminating all references to Christianity. Funny how multiculturalism is another word for out with old and in with the new, with special dispensations and extra recognitions for the beliefs of those who stand so diametrically opposed to American democratic and liberal values.

It may still be a new phenomenon here, spurred by liberals and progressives who can't wait to find another victim to elevate. But in Europe it has, again, become a matter of whether their nations will survive the invasion. It threatens India and it threatens China, it may render Russia apart.

But there is always the easy way out.

First appeasement and then surrender.

After all, who cares what system of government rules us. Who cares what fundamental changes will be required of us. Push the easy button and see what happens.

 

[Orignal Earl]

http://forums.anandtech.com/member.php?u=80346

As runzwithsizorz writes, it is highly important for everyone reading here to understand how important TAQIYYA is in encouraging the spreading of misinformation and lies, otherwise known as propaganda, by Muslims in the furtherance of an Islamic agenda. Putting it simply, a Muslim can say ANYTHING, lie about anything, deceive about everything, so long as it furthers the cause of Islam and sharia.

People can probably identify more with how Republicans and robber barons will lie and steal and cheat to get their way.

Why not ask routan why his imam and the Islamic financing sources for the project name it "Cordoba?" I would be very curious as to how he and his imam would answer.

The article I quoted has some excellent historical names that would be equally appropriate for an "inter-faith" establishment. Maybe he could propose a less offensive name?

You should check out the Imam on Larry King.
Why would they name it something that would cause such a controversy.
You seem to be somewhat behind the times on this, look up Park51

well said, but your rational and logical post will most likely be dismissed and ignored because it's so hard for the OP to realize we don't hate Islam or Muslims, we just have no place for their oppressive government/religion/way of life here

There will never be a Muslim government in the US, and you have putting up with their religion and way of life for a long long time already.