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A Muslim's perspective

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Fern said:
I feel I can oppose burning the Quran without denouncing the 1st Amendment, just as many Muslim can support moving the Mosque without accepting responsibility for 9/11.
Click to expand...
The difference is the location of the Mosque wasn't picked out of any association between 9/11 and Islam, while many do support burning copies of Qur'an through largely false associations of the two. Were it that Qur'an actually endorsed attacks like 9/11, such opposition would be reasonable, but as it doesn't it's absurd that people should be asked not to build a mosque in one of the most busy sections of a city with many Muslim who live and work in the area.
 
Fern said:
You are forced to accept something because of others' opinions? I do not think so. I don't think you do either. What kind of impression does your refusal to even consider another location give to those opposed to the current location? Does it mean this site holds some special significance? Does it lead them to the opinion the GZ Mosque is indeed a 'Victory Mosque'? If so, must you accept that also?

I think not; you can refuse to accept responsibility for 9/11 just as you can refuse to accept that this is a 'Victory Mosque'.

So, I do not think it forces Muslims to accept the responsibility of 9/11 anymore than it forces me to support Quran burning to show my support for my Constitution and the 1st Amendment.

I feel I can oppose burning the Quran without denouncing the 1st Amendment, just as many Muslim can support moving the Mosque without accepting responsibility for 9/11. (I have seen several Arab-American Muslims on TV agreeing to the move out of sensitivity to others' feelings even though they don't share them.)

Compromise of the burning of teh Quran? Not so much, I'd prefer they just not do it. I see nothing constructive.

Compromise on the location? While I don't share the sensitivites of those opposed, I can see compromise here. But IMO that compromise shouldn't be unduly burdensome upon the Mosque's members. If others (e.g., Patterson & Trump) are willing to help facilitate another suitable location (suitable in the Mosque's members' opinion), including financial support, I think it reasonable to listen and consider their offer of assistance. Just to engage in such dialogue etc would be an act of 'building bridges', outright refusal? - not so much.

Fern
Click to expand...


How much can I pay you to give up freedom? An outright refusal to sell, don't forget, would make you look unreasonable. How can you be so fucking blind.
 
Moonbeam said:
How much can I pay you to give up freedom?
Click to expand...

1. Which freedom(s)?

2. How much $'s?

Moonbeam said:
An outright refusal to sell, don't forget, would make you look unreasonable.
Click to expand...

When you answer #2 above, then I'll know how much I paid (by forgoing the $'s) to buy this appearence of "unreasonableness".

Once I buy it, what will this appearence of unreasonableness bring me?

Moonbeam said:
How can you be so fucking blind.
Click to expand...

Let me guess, self-hate?

Fern
 
Fern said:
You are forced to accept something because of others' opinions? I do not think so. I don't think you do either. What kind of impression does your refusal to even consider another location give to those opposed to the current location? Does it mean this site holds some special significance? Does it lead them to the opinion the GZ Mosque is indeed a 'Victory Mosque'? If so, must you accept that also?

I think not; you can refuse to accept responsibility for 9/11 just as you can refuse to accept that this is a 'Victory Mosque'.

So, I do not think it forces Muslims to accept the responsibility of 9/11 anymore than it forces me to support Quran burning to show my support for my Constitution and the 1st Amendment.

I feel I can oppose burning the Quran without denouncing the 1st Amendment, just as many Muslim can support moving the Mosque without accepting responsibility for 9/11. (I have seen several Arab-American Muslims on TV agreeing to the move out of sensitivity to others' feelings even though they don't share them.)

Compromise of the burning of teh Quran? Not so much, I'd prefer they just not do it. I see nothing constructive.

Compromise on the location? While I don't share the sensitivites of those opposed, I can see compromise here. But IMO that compromise shouldn't be unduly burdensome upon the Mosque's members. If others (e.g., Patterson & Trump) are willing to help facilitate another suitable location (suitable in the Mosque's members' opinion), including financial support, I think it reasonable to listen and consider their offer of assistance. Just to engage in such dialogue etc would be an act of 'building bridges', outright refusal? - not so much.

Fern
Click to expand...

Exactly this.

The rest of this thread has been a bunch of blah blah blahs as far as I can see.

People need to just face the damn facts. If you're a German, you get hit with the blame and guilt after World War 2. That's just life. If you're Muslim, by association, you share some of the blame for the terrorism. Are you GUILTY of the blame? Personally, NO (unless you actually are a hateful, idiotic religious person). But the fact that you share beliefs with those who are allows people easily lay BLAME UPON you.

So suck it the fuck up and realize that you're being an insensitive asshole for supporting something like the new 9/11 Mosques.

Sometimes, it AIN'T ABOUT YOU.
 
Heh
I guess I was thinking this morning that you might get some place with these guys routan.
But it looks like there is no breaking down their blind faith.
Maybe you should try immigrating to Canada, we're much more tolerant and freedom loving.

( that should take some heat off you from the poodles, now they will nip at my ankles for awhile 😉 )
 
Orignal Earl said:
Heh
I guess I was thinking this morning that you might get some place with these guys routan.
But it looks like there is no breaking down their blind faith.
Maybe you should try immigrating to Canada, we're much more tolerant and freedom loving.
Click to expand...

The dude passes judgments on websites without looking at them. How intellectually dishonest is that? Why would anyone listen to someone who's got blinders on?

No your last little quip doesn't save you from being called out on your BS. And by the way he doesn't need you to defend him, he already gave up a while back.
 
Last edited:
Instead of wading through countless racist websites for your info, you should actually get a copy of the Qur'an. Sit down, and read it.
 
Orignal Earl said:
Instead of wading through countless racist websites for your info, you should actually get a copy of the Qur'an. Sit down, and read it.
Click to expand...

What would you know about reading a book? You can't even read a website. What is racist about a website that tallies results from news stories about a religion? (Religion != race.) Do you deny the stats?
 
Infohawk said:
What would you know about reading a book? You can't even read a website. What is racist about a website that tallies results from news stories about a religion? (Religion != race.) Do you deny the stats?
Click to expand...

The site tallies every incident that a Muslim commits and says it because of his religion.
Now honestly, do you really believe that?
If I post some jihad site that does the same thing except replaces Muslim with Christian and then shows how the US is the number 1 terrorist org in the world, your going to believe it too?

I've read a couple of books, but I've got friends who have the Qur'an memorized.
Weird thing is though, as wacked as your views are, they would be sure to invite you inside their homes, meet their families, share their supper with you.
 
Orignal Earl said:
The site tallies every incident that a Muslim commits and says it because of his religion.
Now honestly, do you really believe that?
If I post some jihad site that does the same thing except replaces Muslim with Christian and then shows how the US is the number 1 terrorist org in the world, your going to believe it too?

I've read a couple of books, but I've got friends who have the Qur'an memorized.
Weird thing is though, as wacked as your views are, they would be sure to invite you inside their homes, meet their families, share their supper with you.
Click to expand...


No, the site doesn't say that. What if you looked at it yourself? For a hate site, it is oddly very clear that

Muslims are individuals. We passionately believe that no Muslim should be harmed, harassed, stereotyped or treated any differently anywhere in the world solely on account of their status as a Muslim.
Click to expand...

And I'm not I'm impressed by the anecdotes of an idiot.
 
routan said:
As a Muslim, I am saddened by the support of burning of the Quran. Why would you support that? I hold immense respect for the Holy Book. Reasonable people were against the burning of crosses by the KKK, were you not? Of course you have the freedom to do so, there is no doubt. But does that freedom grant you to inflame another community that is as American as you are?
Click to expand...
Absolutely. On the other side of the coin, you can inflame them all you want too.

In essence, you are purposefully supporting the targetting of the Muslim community, putting us in conflict with you, forcing a distinction between Americans and Muslims. There is no difference. I came to America to enjoy the freedoms this country provides, which are absent in the eastern half of the world. I didnt come here to be a target of your hate. I could face that in my home country. There are other Muslims, born and raised here, went to school and universities with fellow Americans. Are we that different that you choose to support this directed targetting?

America has had history of bad behavior towards a group of people, be it African Americans, Orientals (during WW2), perceived Communists and so on. I urge every one here to not let history repeat itself.
Click to expand...

That is kinda the point. You came here to enjoy the freedoms we enjoy in this country but there is no such thing as a perfect deal. In order for you and I to continue enjoying those freedoms we must both accept the good AND the bad that comes from those freedoms. To do anything else simply erodes those freedoms that you came here for. You are free to build your Mosque and you are free to pray as you wish to whom you wish, and I will support YOUR freedom to do so in any way necessary. If the .gov ever told you that you could not pray to Allah I would stand up with you, and I believe the vast majority of Americans would join us, and fight to regain your freedom. I would do that even though I do not believe in your God, matter of fact I do not believe in any god.

At the same time, I will support the very same freedom that the asshole displayed yesterday. You don't have to agree with his actions but you, if you truly believe in our freedoms, should support his right to do so.

And your last paragraph is nonsense. Muslims have not been made slaves in the US, they have not been put into "camps" or anything remotely close to it. People in the United States might disagree with you and do things you don't like but that is what freedom is. When the government starts burning Korans or putting Muslims in camps or making Muslims property then you would have a valid comparison. You are actually just comparing your freedoms with the freedoms of others.
 
Fern said:
You are forced to accept something because of others' opinions? I do not think so. I don't think you do either. What kind of impression does your refusal to even consider another location give to those opposed to the current location? Does it mean this site holds some special significance? Does it lead them to the opinion the GZ Mosque is indeed a 'Victory Mosque'? If so, must you accept that also?

I think not; you can refuse to accept responsibility for 9/11 just as you can refuse to accept that this is a 'Victory Mosque'.

So, I do not think it forces Muslims to accept the responsibility of 9/11 anymore than it forces me to support Quran burning to show my support for my Constitution and the 1st Amendment.

I feel I can oppose burning the Quran without denouncing the 1st Amendment, just as many Muslim can support moving the Mosque without accepting responsibility for 9/11. (I have seen several Arab-American Muslims on TV agreeing to the move out of sensitivity to others' feelings even though they don't share them.)

Compromise of the burning of teh Quran? Not so much, I'd prefer they just not do it. I see nothing constructive.

Compromise on the location? While I don't share the sensitivites of those opposed, I can see compromise here. But IMO that compromise shouldn't be unduly burdensome upon the Mosque's members. If others (e.g., Patterson & Trump) are willing to help facilitate another suitable location (suitable in the Mosque's members' opinion), including financial support, I think it reasonable to listen and consider their offer of assistance. Just to engage in such dialogue etc would be an act of 'building bridges', outright refusal? - not so much.

Fern
Click to expand...

First, my apologies to Hayabasu Rider for indulging again in this thread. I felt it appropriate to respond to Fern.

Fern, I stated many, many times before that the reason cited for not building the mosque with respect to sensitivity of the location is the false notion that Islam is responsible for the attack. And I went on to prove that point by providing Infohawk's post as evidence.

If the mosque is not built to cater to that sensitivity, it goes on to show that the Muslim community is responsible for 9/11. Any reasonable person can note this.

The intent of the mosque is absolutety not as a "Victory Mosque". I and every other Muslim member who visits that will (most hopefully) categorically deny that. That suggestion itself is ludicrous, because as Americans, there is nothing to feel victorious about.

The analogy to the burning of the Quran is false. Burning the Quran is a direct affront to all Muslims. The building of the mosque is only an affront to those who hold - falsely - that Islam is responsible for 9/11.

I have also repeatedly asked about Trumps suggestion about moving the mosque, and also repeatedly asked how much further is further. I have not received any responses. Patterson's suggestion was half-baked and served only for him to get some brownie points. No one would allow government money to fund a move.

I am actively engaging in a discussion with members here. I have stated that if there is really a valid reason why the mosque should move, please convince me. I am a reasonable adult. I will definitely speak with the builders personally to put forth a valid viewpoint.

Believe me, most of you against the mosque just sit, watch biased news outlets and form opinions. We, the Muslims are the ones who actually suffer the media and people circus every Friday after worship. Ridiculous really. I prayed there for months without issue, and suddenly its like walking into a bad SnL skit.
 
kylebisme said:
The difference is the location of the Mosque wasn't picked out of any association between 9/11 and Islam, while many do support burning copies of Qur'an through largely false associations of the two. Were it that Qur'an actually endorsed attacks like 9/11, such opposition would be reasonable, but as it doesn't it's absurd that people should be asked not to build a mosque in one of the most busy sections of a city with many Muslim who live and work in the area.
Click to expand...

kylebisme, thank you. You expressed what I am trying to convey in far better words than mine.
 
Infohawk said:
No, the site doesn't say that. What if you looked at it yourself? For a hate site, it is oddly very clear that

Muslims are individuals. We passionately believe that no Muslim should be harmed, harassed, stereotyped or treated any differently anywhere in the world solely on account of their status as a Muslim.
Click to expand...

And I'm not I'm impressed by the anecdotes of an idiot.
Click to expand...

Oh hey look, it has a disclaimer on the site, that means everything on it is true and its not a hate site

lol
come on...
 
thereligionofpeace owner-

Neo-Nazi Glen Reinsford, who used to run the horrifically anti-Islamic site of www.cairbaby.com, had his site taken down, as his hosting company has restrictions against racism.

You can find an archived copy of the site’s front page at http://web.archive.org/web/20070304120840/cairbaby.com/

The site was temporarily taken down in December 2007, when Reinsford violated copyright laws, and now appears to be gone permanently as Reinsford refused to remove the racist content. The permanent takedown appears to have happened in April 2008. (Shows how often I read his site.)

Reinsford is an indicted co-conspirator of Jeanette Runyon, on charges of conspiracy, forgery, cyberstalking, money laundering, wire fraud, theft of a social security number, and using interstate communications to make personal threats.

You can read more about Reinsford here.
Click to expand...
http://www.chasingevil.org/2008/10/update-on-glen-reinsford.html

And then follow the links...
 
Orignal Earl said:
Oh hey look, it has a disclaimer on the site, that means everything on it is true and its not a hate site

lol
come on...
Click to expand...

The problem with people like you and COW is that you're minimizing real hate. Sites that state that blacks and jews are real hate sites. Sites that have statistics (which you can't contradict) and specifically condemn hurting Muslims aren't hate sites.
 
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