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A Muslim's perspective

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Infohawk said:
If you want get specifics in terms of numbers, here's a link for you: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
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such websites are in no way different to jihadist websites who show images of Muslims killed by American forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, UAV bombings in Pakistan, etc, etc to inflame passion and breed hatred and intolerance.

I do not visit such websites, and I would encourage you not to the same. At the minimum, you would then differentiate yourself from Jihandi lunatics.
 
Number1 said:
I don't know if you are familiar with the Wesboro Baptist Church, this is a group of so called religious people who travel to protest at funerals of killed soldiers in the US. It might very well be legal but it sure is infuriating and in no way represent the views of the regular run of the mill Baptist church goers.
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Claiming that Park51 shouldn't be built because of its Islamic nature makes as much sense as arguing that no Churches should be built near military installations because of the Westboro Baptist Church. Choosing to paint the all adherents of a religion with the colors of an extremist sect is at best prejudiced and at worst bigotry.


Fern said:
So, we have some so-called pastor (not even a real one) and about 2 dozen people threatening to burn a Koran, how is it that the Arab/Muslim world apparently doesn't accept that these 'nuts' are NOT representative of America (or the Western world)? Is everyone over here burning a Koran? No, they're not, in fact most are speaking out against it.
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Again, you'll happily make the distinction between a radical sect and mainstream religion in the case of Christianity, but you wont for Islam?
 
routan said:
Pardon me, but I in no way suggested that. On the contrary, I suggested if there was ONE valid reason that it should be moved, please convince me and I would speak with the builders about moving the mosque.

And I hope at least some fellow members here see me as decently reasonable, so I can certainly listen to a reasonable reason.
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You are presumably an adult who believe in fairy tails. How am I going to be able to convince you of anything? Again, today's Germans are mostly sensitive about Israel and the Holocaust even if they weren't personally responsible. They would not open a German cultural center next to the Holocaust museum. If Muslims moved their Madrasa it might be sign of understanding about 9/11, but they would prefer to ignore the reality of it.
 
CADsortaGUY said:
Hold on there junior - nowhere did I "attribute the mosque towards the act of 9/11" Try reading what I actually posted. Both actions(builing mosque/burning koran) are legal but both could be seen as insensitive by certain groups. You being one of the groups doesn't afford you a balanced view as you only see one as being insensitive and want nothing to do with the other. Same can be said for some in the other group. Why do we always seem to have to bend to the sensitivities of Islam here in America?

I say let the mosque be built and then let the protesters burn Korans outside.
J/K.
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Since I have not read a reason from you why building the mosque on Park Place, I can only assume that the reason is that you attribute the WTC act on Islam, hence building an Islamic prayer building is an affront to the sensitivities. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Else my reply to you is still valid. 🙂
 
routan said:
such websites are in no way different to jihadist websites who show images of Muslims killed by American forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, UAV bombings in Pakistan, etc, etc to inflame passion and breed hatred and intolerance.

I do not visit such websites, and I would encourage you not to the same. At the minimum, you would then differentiate yourself from Jihandi lunatics.
Click to expand...

Do you care to dispute the numbers on that website? Is there something inaccurate or do you just disagree with the message that many people die because Islam exists. That website isn't advocating violence. You can't compare it to a jihadist website.
 
Infohawk said:
You are presumably an adult who believe in fairy tails. How am I going to be able to convince you of anything? Again, today's Germans are mostly sensitive about Israel and the Holocaust even if they weren't personally responsible. They would not open a German cultural center next to the Holocaust museum. If Muslims moved their Madrasa it might be sign of understanding about 9/11, but they would prefer to ignore the reality of it.
Click to expand...

How do you know this? Just because it hasnt been done? What is even the probability of a German culture center and a Holocaust Museum being in the same vicinity. That analogy, my friend, is fairy tale arguemnt. This is the Newt Gingrich reasoning, you just replaced Nazi sign in his statement with a German cultural center.

Again, I ask you, how much further is further? And what are your thoughts about the Warren Street mosque and the lack of interest that mosque generated?
 
L00PY said:
Claiming that Park51 shouldn't be built because of its Islamic nature makes as much sense as arguing that no Churches should be built near military installations because of the Westboro Baptist Church. Choosing to paint the all adherents of a religion with the colors of an extremist sect is at best prejudiced and at worst bigotry.



Again, you'll happily make the distinction between a radical sect and mainstream religion in the case of Christianity, but you wont for Islam?
Click to expand...

L00PY, I thank you for your reasonable responses. I hope my support of your words does not brand you as a lunatic as I have been branded by some here.
 
routan said:
How do you know this? Just because it hasnt been done? What is even the probability of a German culture center and a Holocaust Museum being in the same vicinity. That analogy, my friend, is fairy tale arguemnt. This is the Newt Gingrich reasoning, you just replaced Nazi sign in his statement with a German cultural center.

Again, I ask you, how much further is further? And what are your thoughts about the Warren Street mosque and the lack of interest that mosque generated?
Click to expand...

It's not a fairy tale argument. It's analogy. And saying you don't like Newt Ginrich doesn't disqualify his arguments (which I'm not familiar with btw).

When was the Warren Street mosque built? Is it a permanent structure?

I've already said something along the lines of what Trump suggested is fine in terms of distance.
 
routan said:
Since I have not read a reason from you why building the mosque on Park Place, I can only assume that the reason is that you attribute the WTC act on Islam, hence building an Islamic prayer building is an affront to the sensitivities. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Else my reply to you is still valid. 🙂
Click to expand...

I could care less where you build things so I personally have nothing to do with this. I just thought it should be pointed out that your so-called logic was flawed because it dismisses the idea that insensitivity exists by building the mosque there. I don't give a rats ass where you build things, but others do. I also don't give a rats ass if a koran is burned, but others do. Like I said, I don't expect you to understand as your position is biased due to your own self interest.
 
Infohawk said:
Do you care to dispute the numbers on that website? Is there something inaccurate or do you just disagree with the message that many people die because Islam exists. That website isn't advocating violence. You can't compare it to a jihadist website.
Click to expand...

Infohawk, I do not visit such websites, so I wouldnt know about the numbers. I do know that many Jihadi recruits are simply shown numbers, images, and told heart-wrenching stories of what is happening to their Muslim brethren, how their sisters are being raped and what not to inflame their passion and raise their fervor to "avenge" the crimes against "infidels".

You are treading on the same path. I would encourage you to not follow the same path.
 
Infohawk said:
It's not a fairy tale argument. It's analogy. And saying you don't like Newt Ginrich doesn't disqualify his arguments (which I'm not familiar with btw).

When was the Warren Street mosque built? Is it a permanent structure?

I've already said something along the lines of what Trump suggested is fine in terms of distance.
Click to expand...

Its a false analogy, so its pointless to debate on that. Suffice to say there is no way anyone can qualify that Germans would or wouldnt want to build a German cultural whatnot...

I dont know when the Warren Street mosque was built but I prayed there from 06-08 before the building they rented was sold to build condos.

I dont know Trumps suggestion. Hence I asked you to enlighten me. This is the third time I am requesting the information from you 🙂
 
Infohawk said:
So if you haven't seen the website how are you able to pass judgment on it? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
Click to expand...

A website that exclusively caters to propagating information about the violent attacks by Muslim extremists requires further judgment? lol. I guess I am that ridiculous.
 
routan said:
A website that exclusively caters to propagating information about the violent attacks by Muslim extremists requires further judgment? lol. I guess I am that ridiculous.
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How would you know that if you didn't see for yourself what it says? That is ridiculous.
 
routan said:
CADsortaGUY, not only do I not see the insensitivity, but in my opinion, if I as a member of the Muslim community DO agree that the mosque should move to respect the sensitivities, I am agreeing in principle that the WTC incident was somehow my, and my faith's responsibility.
Click to expand...

That's some very odd logic.

It ignores the possibility of respecting others' opinions/feelings even if you don't agree with them.

If you extend your logic, you can never respect others' opinions, because if you only respect opinions you agree with, they would, by definition, be your opinions.

This would seem to provoke a logical conundrum: So, you can only respect/accept opinions that you agree with. Therefore, others must be the same as you; they must only respect/accept opinions they agree with (as you do). But what if they're opinions are different from your's? Must you accept their non-respect/acceptance of yours? Apparently so. But then, if so, that violates your (initial) rejections of different opinions in the first place. Seems to me this type of illogical logic leads to intolerance all around.

This 'logic' would also seem to compel Americans to support the Quran burning, because to do otherwise would be agreeing in principle that the 1st Amendment does not exist and therefor the Constitution is wrong.

Fern
 
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bfdd said:
No it isn't, not in the least. Some terrorists do belong to a religion and they do use their religion as a means to justify their actions. To say otherwise is fucking ignorant. Just because not ALL terrorists are like that, doesn't mean some aren't.
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Yes, it's exactly like that.

Every major religion has some who have done 'terrorism', some with no justification and others with more justification.

And there's also a double standard - your form of violence is terrible, while my side's form of violence is excusable.

If we had beheaded people and Al Queda had dropped napalm and agent orange on Vietnam, we'd be hearing the opposite of which is terrible.

And every major religion has some who have done violence, some with no justification and others with more justification.

Linking 'terrorism' - which is sometimes done for religious views, sometimes for non-religious views - to one religion is merely a way of saying 'stop discussing the issues and dehumanize that group'. It's a way of framing the issues to make your side come out good and avoid any discussion of the other side's views.

It's like those who respond to any mention of economic issues of rich versus poor by saying the less rich are 'jealous' - ignore the issues, attack them personally instead.
 
routan said:
Its a false analogy, so its pointless to debate on that. Suffice to say there is no way anyone can qualify that Germans would or wouldnt want to build a German cultural whatnot...

I dont know when the Warren Street mosque was built but I prayed there from 06-08 before the building they rented was sold to build condos.

I dont know Trumps suggestion. Hence I asked you to enlighten me. This is the third time I am requesting the information from you 🙂
Click to expand...

I'm not helping someone who won't even look at a website that he badmouths. The Trump quote freely available on google news.

A mosque that was already present before 9/11 is not insensitive for obvious reasons. The people who built it couldn't have known that a heinous Islamic terror act would have been committed there. The people building the new mosque can't say the same thing.

And btw, I have no reason you are more or less Muslim than the ones who crashed planes into the WTC. You don't decide who is Muslim or who isn't.
 
Routan, you can take my advice or leave it but at this point you've made your point and people will have made up their minds. We've gotten to the baiting part of this game and while that hasn't worked I see no reason to play along. You're the one who makes the call but IMO there's no loss of face to refuse to keep banging your head against the wall.
 
L00PY said:
Originally Posted by Fern
So, we have some so-called pastor (not even a real one) and about 2 dozen people threatening to burn a Koran, how is it that the Arab/Muslim world apparently doesn't accept that these 'nuts' are NOT representative of America (or the Western world)? Is everyone over here burning a Koran? No, they're not, in fact most are speaking out against it.
Click to expand...

Again, you'll happily make the distinction between a radical sect and mainstream religion in the case of Christianity, but you wont for Islam?
Click to expand...

Of course I do, I have done so here in the past.

Fern
 
Hayabusa Rider said:
ItRoutan, you can take my advice or leave it but at this point you've made your point and people will have made up their minds. We've gotten to the baiting part of this game and while that hasn't worked I see no reason to play along. You're the one who makes the call but IMO there's no loss of face to refuse to keep banging your head against the wall.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the people who are debating against Routan are close-minded, but Routan who judges a website without even looking at it is a voice of reason. Give me a break.
 
Fern said:
That's some very odd logic.

It ignores the possibility of respecting others' opinions/feelings even if you don't agree with them.

If you extend your logic, you can never respect others' opinions, because if you only respect opinions you agree with, they would, by definition, be your opinions.

This would seem to provoke a logical conundrum: So, you can only respect/accept opin ions that you agree with. Therefore, others must be the same as you; they must only respect/accept opions they agree with (as you do). But what if they're opinions are different from your's? Must you accept their non-respect/acceptance of yours? Apparently so. But, if so, that violates your (initial) rejections of different opinions in the first place. Seems to me this type of illogical logic leads to intolerance all around.

This 'logic' would also seem to compel Americans to support the Quran burning, because to do otherwise would be agreeing in principle that the 1st Amendment does not exist and therefor the Constitution is wrong.

Fern
Click to expand...

Fern, the logic is predicated by the reasoning that is cited for the mosque being insensitive. The feelings you mention exist BECAUSE Muslims are viewed as the perpretators of 9/11. If that is NOT the case, my logic fails, as do the opinions of those who are against the mosque.

Hope that helps 🙂
 
Routan, it's about supremacy. People adopting far-right extremist views, such as Infohawk here, will not stop until you submit. They want to project their anger against a tiny American population they believe can be bullied. They think this is their country, not your country.

They don't care about the mosque or its location really. It's all about having a minority group submit.

You have to be strong and prevail over them. It's essentially a civil rights struggle. In the future, you will be viewed as on the good side. People opposed will be viewed as segregationists and such are viewed today.
 
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