A Different take on PC Speakers: Self-Powered Monitors + Custom Sub

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Ok goodnight

The Klipsch 2.1 system is probably crossed over in the 100-120hz range so I was confused why 65hz seemed too high

Thats one of the motivations for taking this project on. 100-120Hz is just way too high of a range for a sub to expect good sound, all the PC centric speakers seem to share that major limitation.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Have you ever typed something in a post and then said to yourself, "Did I do that?" Sheesh ....

All the time

 

[ribbon13]

Originally posted by: Billb2

Originally posted by: Operandi
I don't want to have to buy a separate amp and preamp.

Then you're going to have a "computer" speaker system, not an audiophile system. Have a look at the Bowers & Wilkins LM1s

Oi? This is decidedly wrong, and you've obviously never even step foot into the door of professional audio. Active stage monitors with balanced XLR inputs are a stable of sound reinforcement.

That being said, I highly doubt theirs a large group of people hooking up JBL EONs to a PC.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: ribbon13

That being said, I highly doubt theirs a large group of people hooking up JBL EONs to a PC.

Crown I-T8000's pushing Peavey SP6's.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: ribbon13

That being said, I highly doubt theirs a large group of people hooking up JBL EONs to a PC.

Crown I-T8000's pushing Peavey SP6's.

Thats the what you use for audio on your PC?? :Q

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Joking aside, out of curiosity, what are you planning to use as a crossover frequency for the subwoofer?

Well the Wharfedale DP8.1 have a response down to 50Hz according to their specs so I'm guessing I'll aim for 50-70Hz after some experimenting.

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Out of curiosity, what do you not like about Klipsch ProMedia 2.1s? Performance, style, price, or ???

Strictly performance, the Pro Media's are good for their price but what I'm looking to achieve is going to be in a completely different league then anything Klipsch (or anyone else for that matter) has made for the PC market.

A crossover at 50-70Hz would be pretty nice for a computer audio setup. Should be "doable" based on the info in this thread. You'll obviously be blurring the line between "computer audio" and a more traditional "home audio" config, but hey, nothing wrong with that -- one has to in order to get beyond the physical limitations of small satellites fitting in aesthetically on a typical desktop. :thumbsup: (Not to mention the typical cost of just a sound card driving PC speakers without an amp in the mix.)

Just don't post a picture with a 6' tower speaker sitting on your desk on each side of your monitor.

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Ok goodnight

The Klipsch 2.1 system is probably crossed over in the 100-120hz range so I was confused why 65hz seemed too high

Thats one of the motivations for taking this project on. 100-120Hz is just way too high of a range for a sub to expect good sound, all the PC centric speakers seem to share that major limitation.

Yeah, prolly due to size limitations of satellites more than anything else. After all, to get deeper bass out of satellites, the bass/midrange drivers need to be bigger than a couple inches, and once that happens, you have bookshelf speakers that no longer fit or look right sitting on each side of a CRT or LCD monitor. Luckily I don't do critical listening of computer-based audio, so my ProMedias suffice for Web radio and the occasional audio from a video clip on a Website & such. But if I did, I'd prolly be aspiring to something more like you're doing.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I tried a few different crossover settings and I've stuck with 80hz for my own system.

Getting the lowest crossover point possible isn't always going to give you the best results.

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I tried a few different crossover settings and I've stuck with 80hz for my own system.

Getting the lowest crossover point possible isn't always going to give you the best results.

Yeah, 80Hz sounds about right. Depends on the room too, which we haven't even touched on in this thread. :Q But it's gettin' late again and I'm too tired to open that can o' worms.

I also agree that the lowest crossover frequency isn't always the best. Too many variables (equipment, the room, source material, etc.). You know, I wish I had some of the equipment that the reviewers at Stereo Review magazine used to use in their reviews (back when Julian Hirsch was around and when the magazine was in its heyday). They had spectrum analyzers, parametric equalizers, pink noise generators, oscilloscopes, anechoic chambers, the best mics, etc. I'm sure they were able to find combinations of top quality equipment and room acoustics that were probably awe-inspiring. I've heard really top-shelf equipment, in acoustically excellent rooms/venues, a few times in my life and there's nothing quite like it. Done right, you can close your eyes and think a band is playing right there in front of you.

 

[MichaelD]

Bumping this thread; I'd like to see what the OP decided to do.

I've gotten on this bandwagon too. Over the years, I've developed a strong dislike for the high crossover point that the sub has in a PC speaker 2.1 set; half of the sound comes from under the desk which just isn't right, and the sats just sound tinny.

Due to budget and space limitations, here's what I purchased (haven't received them yet...USPS is kinda slow).

Behringer A500 amp 160w x 2 @ 8 ohms...nice little amp that will allow upgrades in the future.

MTX 5i bookshelves Not the best in the world, but they'll play down to 50Hz and I'll have the full sound spectrum up top where it should be, not halfway under the desk. I really wanted to go with the Dayton BR1's, but they are just too big for my desk and I didn't want to mess with putting up shelves, etc.

If the bug really bites me good (or I don't like the MTX's), I'll get the Dayton's and figure out how to put them up.

It would be cool to see pics/specs of YOUR PC sound systems.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
It would be cool to see pics/specs of YOUR PC sound systems.

heh, ok

cheap little office 2.0 system
home computer is hooked up to the HT system
electronic thingamajigs

 

[MichaelD]

Cool stuff, YYHDJ. :thumbsup:

What speakers are those in your office setup? How do they sound off that T-amp? It's 10 WPC, right? I considered the T-amp (I was ordering from Dayton anyway...) but the 10WPC rating scared me off.

Your HT is just sick. I love it! Your neighbors must love you too. Bass for days. :evil:

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
Cool stuff, YYHDJ. :thumbsup:

What speakers are those in your office setup? How do they sound off that T-amp? It's 10 WPC, right? I considered the T-amp (I was ordering from Dayton anyway...) but the 10WPC rating scared me off.

Your HT is just sick. I love it! Your neighbors must love you too. Bass for days. :evil:

Those are B-stock X-LS from AV123
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=82.1

They get plenty loud for the office. I actually haven't tried to see how loud they get because my confidence gives out before the amp does
Maybe I'll stay late one night and try them out

Yeah, it's 10 watts into 8ohms and 15 into 4ohms I think.

With 87dB sensitivity speakers, it works well enough for me. I wouldn't try to use if for HT use based on what I have my volume set up for that, but for normal music listening at a distance like I'm using it works just fine.


Our apartments are above a bar on a busy street and the pipes clang all night, so I think everyone has just about given up on silence over here :evil:

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
Bumping this thread; I'd like to see what the OP decided to do.

I've gotten on this bandwagon too. Over the years, I've developed a strong dislike for the high crossover point that the sub has in a PC speaker 2.1 set; half of the sound comes from under the desk which just isn't right, and the sats just sound tinny.

Due to budget and space limitations, here's what I purchased (haven't received them yet...USPS is kinda slow).

Behringer A500 amp 160w x 2 @ 8 ohms...nice little amp that will allow upgrades in the future.

MTX 5i bookshelves Not the best in the world, but they'll play down to 50Hz and I'll have the full sound spectrum up top where it should be, not halfway under the desk. I really wanted to go with the Dayton BR1's, but they are just too big for my desk and I didn't want to mess with putting up shelves, etc.

If the bug really bites me good (or I don't like the MTX's), I'll get the Dayton's and figure out how to put them up.

It would be cool to see pics/specs of YOUR PC sound systems.

That amp looks pretty nice. :thumbsup: I wasn't aware of it before.

I hope you won't take offense at this, but I can't say the same for those speakers. But hey, I know what's it like to only have a certain amount of $$ to spend. BTW, when you say they'll play down to 50Hz, you don't know at what level. The Web page says 48Hz, but as is often the case with budget speakers (again, no offense), there's no +/- range given, so those speakers could be down -20dB at 50Hz for all we know and really only have a usable FR down to 70 or 80Hz or somethin'. Don't mean to rain on your parade, but if you can afford it, you might wanna invest in a small sub and set its crossover at 70Hz or 80Hz rather than rely on those MTXs delivering anywhere near flat response down to 50Hz. Just a thought.

BTW, over the years I've read a number of times, from reputable audio reviewers, that low bass starts to become directional to most listeners at ~ 80 or 90Hz, give or take (it depends on the listener). I agree with your previous statement that most PC speaker sets w/subs have a crossover that's too high, but you can actually get away with it if it's not too high and if you put the sub up off the floor and closer, somehow, to the sats themselves. That way, the directionality issue becomes less problematic and you don't have the sensation of the sound coming from under the desk.

Good luck with your new setup. And dang, now I want one of those Behringer amps.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

MichaelD, you're running M22/VP150 up front, right?

My parents need a new TV, but https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
MichaelD, you're running M22/VP150 up front, right?

My parents need a new TV, but <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG">https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp............om/Parents%20setup.JPG</a></a></a></a>

Oh wow!! :Q Same front setup as mine (but I have the cherry cabinets)...but yeah, they kinda need a bigger screen. Those stands are killer! I'm using my own homemade PVC stands...they do the job.

My home setup:
Denon 3803
Axiom all around (M22/VP150/QS8s)
SVS PB2+ sub
Infocus 4805 DLP projector
108" diagonal 16:9 screen

Pic of HT.


@KEN90630

No prob, no offense taken at all. I agree; the MTXs are borderline at best. BUT, compared to the 12-year old Labtec 2.1 setup I have now (4" sub, 3" sats that sound like tin cans) I think it'll be a world of difference. As you can see by my HT setup listed above, I know good sound.

I would've went with better speakers, but my desk is really small and wall mounting isn't really an option b/c the wall behind my desk isn't a "wall" it's a piece of 5/8" fiberboard that is the rear panel of the closet in the other room. . The previous owner of the apt took one big bedroom and made two small bedrooms out of it. The "wall" between them is part sheetrock, part fiberboard. The closets (one facing into each room) are what separates the two rooms.

The MTXs will be a huge step up...and I know I'll probably get real tired of them in short order and probably buy the BR1 kit. We'll see what happens.

I read as many reviews of the Behringer A500 as I could find and it looks like a real steal at the price. It's biggest flaw is that it can't run a 4-ohm MONO bridged load. I'm sure it would have no prob with 6 ohms though. Anyway, for stereo or bridged to 8 ohms it looks like a steal. I'll report back when it all comes in.

 

[ribbon13]

Doesn't anyone know when you see blah balh Hz to blah blah KHz, the lower figure is generally an 'F3'? Like those MTXs?

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Thats the what you use for audio on your PC?? :Q

On some days. I have good isolation, however.

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: ribbon13
Doesn't anyone know when you see blah balh Hz to blah blah KHz, the lower figure is generally an 'F3'? Like those MTXs?

Yeah, but I'm not planning on playing 50Hz test tones @ 105db thru them.

I've been around the audio world a long time. I looked at the MTXs; first thought was "What do you expect for $60?" I think that's a fair statement.

Then I studied them a little. 5.25" driver in a decent size PORTED box can produce a decent amount of audible bass. Notice I didn't say "tactile" as in a HT sub that really can play 25Hz @ 105db.

I'm not expecting miracles out of the MTXs in the bass department. But as compared to the 3", 12 year old AM radio speakers that are my current satellites, the MTXs will probably sound like Angels playing harps.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: MichaelD

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
MichaelD, you're running M22/VP150 up front, right?

My parents need a new TV, but <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmcl.........Random/Parents%20setup.JPG"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Parents%20setup.JPG">https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp............arents%20setup.JPG</a></a></a></a></a>

Oh wow!! :Q Same front setup as mine (but I have the cherry cabinets)...but yeah, they kinda need a bigger screen. Those stands are killer! I'm using my own homemade PVC stands...they do the job.

My home setup:
Denon 3803
Axiom all around (M22/VP150/QS8s)
SVS PB2+ sub
Infocus 4805 DLP projector
108" diagonal 16:9 screen

Pic of HT.

Yeah, too bad Axiom charges quite a bit for the stands. I wouldn't have bought them for them but I got the speakers, sub, receiver, and stands off Craigslist for $750.

 

[MichaelD]

Yeah, too bad Axiom charges quite a bit for the stands. I wouldn't have bought them for them but I got the speakers, sub, receiver, and stands off Craigslist for $750.

:Q Wow! Craigslist FTW. That's an absolute STEAL of a deal at $750. The VP150 alone is $400 new!

 

[MichaelD]

Check out this thread! :Q Pics galore!

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: MichaelD

Yeah, too bad Axiom charges quite a bit for the stands. I wouldn't have bought them for them but I got the speakers, sub, receiver, and stands off Craigslist for $750.

:Q Wow! Craigslist FTW. That's an absolute STEAL of a deal at $750. The VP150 alone is $400 new!

Yeah, when I saw all of it I pretty much decided I had to get it and bought my parents the largest christmas gift I've ever given them

 

[Ken90630]

Originally posted by: ribbon13
Doesn't anyone know when you see blah balh Hz to blah blah KHz, the lower figure is generally an 'F3'? Like those MTXs?

Hmmm ... don't know where you got that idea from. I've been a quasi-audiophile for more than 20 years, and credible reviewers have always -- and I mean always -- blasted companies for not providing +/- qualifiers with their frequency response specs. And the reason they've done so is that tests of components without +/- qualifiers virtually always reveal that the response at the ends of the frequency spectrum is nowhere near "the lower figure" (or the corresponding higher figure) at an audible level. The consensus (which I agree with) is that if the FR is truly good, the mfgrs reference a +/- qualifier -- when the response is not, they 'conveniently' omit the qualifier in order to hide the component's true FR performance. It's a dishonest marketing tactic that has been lamented by audiophiles for as long as hi fi has been around.

I've seen a lot of reviews over the years where a component's FR was nowhere near the quoted numbers at the ends of the spectrum and where the response tails off precipitously by far more than 3dB at each end, so an assumption that the lower number is only the 'down-by-3dB point' is definitely not any universally-followed practice AFAIK.

No offense, but could you site a credible source for your assertion that "the lower figure is generally an F3," 'cuz this is the first I've heard of that. And if I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say, my apologies.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Ken90630

No offense, but could you site a credible source for your assertion that "the lower figure is generally an F3," 'cuz this is the first I've heard of that.

A nice sub bass system will do that.

Severe damage. Roofs and some walls torn off well-constructed houses; trains overturned; most trees in forest uprooted; heavy cars lifted off the ground and thrown.

Imagine an F5.