A Chalk Mark On A Tire Is A 'Search'?

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

What am I missing here? Isn't this common practice in parking tickets?

Michigan city defends tire-chalking policy at Sixth Circuit

The federal appeals court heard debate for the second time over whether chalking the tires of a parked car is an unconstitutional search under the Fourth Amendment.

www.courthousenews.com

"
"The interference in this instance is minimal," the brief states. "A discrete chalk mark on a tire that washes away does not interfere with an individual's liberty...The chalk mark is harmless, is temporary, and is unobtrusive."

Attorney Philip Ellison argued on Thursday on behalf of Taylor, and told the three-judge panel the "dreaded chalk mark" used by Saginaw officials is unconstitutional.

"Not only does it offend us when we get that parking ticket," he said, "but it offends the Fourth Amendment.""


'Offended' by a parking ticket? How is marking a tire any different than placing a ticket under the wiper blade?

 

[Greenman]

I guess no one ever told the guy you can just wipe it off after the meter maid goes by.

 

[nickqt]

I have a feeling that if I walked up to a police car and chalked the tire I'd immediately have some trouble with that police officer. Funny that.

 

[tweaker2]

I have a feeling that if I walked up to a police car and chalked the tire I'd immediately have some trouble with that police officer. Funny that.

That 'ol phrase "do unto others....." sorta loses its meaning when cops are involved.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I guess no one ever told the guy you can just wipe it off after the meter maid goes by.

So you're going to stake out your own vehicle? How much free time do you have, exactly?

 

[pcgeek11]

A Michigan resident on the receiving end of 15 parking tickets asked the Sixth Circuit on Thursday to reinstate her Fourth Amendment claims against the city of Saginaw, arguing its practice of chalking tires is unconstitutional.

Or maybe she is stupid or should follow the time limits posted. 15 parking tickets, I have never had a parking ticket.

 

[Greenman]

So you're going to stake out your own vehicle? How much free time do you have, exactly?

The sign tells you when you have to move your car, so instead of moving it you just wipe off the chalk mark. It's that or spend a couple hours and a hundred bucks to get a construction parking permit. Pain in the ass.

 

[Vic]

If the plaintiff's complaint was that the govt was using the chalk marks for a reason other than to issue parking tickets, I would wholeheartedly agree with them.
Interesting case though. IMO all Constitutional rights should be stretched in favor of the People to their fullest possible extents, but OTOH parking your car on property you don't own is not a right.

 

[shortylickens]

you ever notice how lawyers nowadays are just utterly completely full of shit?

 

[Vic]

you ever notice how lawyers nowadays are just utterly completely full of shit?

That is not a quality unique to the legal profession (and no, I'm not a lawyer).

 

[Jaskalas]

"Once we establish it's a search"

How the !@#$ is that?
Marking a tire is not breaking into and searching the inside contents of a vehicle.
I am met with outrage over the absurdity, and a lack of explanation.

 

[eelw]

you ever notice how lawyers nowadays are just utterly completely full of shit?

They've always been lower than cockroaches. But just not sure why they aren't sanctioned more often

 

[shortylickens]

They've always been lower than cockroaches. But just not sure why they aren't sanctioned more often

I think because people in power like having an army of men & women who can somehow legally get away with lying or at least spreading garbage.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I guess they just need to start towing vehicles and making violators search for them.

 

[HomerJS]

I would think the practice on it's own is problematic. What would happen if someone went down the street chalking up peoples tires?

 

[cytg111]

The chalk is lazy chalk right? Cause there would be other indicators on said tire that indicate if its been moving or not.

So the assumption is that they always put the chalk in the same spot right?
All you have to do is go chalking peoples tires up in the wrong spots -or the right spot-.. let it rip and when hellfire ensures, they're gonna get rid of that practice real fast.

 

[zinfamous]

Or maybe she is stupid or should follow the time limits posted. 15 parking tickets, I have never had a parking ticket.

how the hell have you never had a parking ticket? do you live in a swamp?

 

[ch33zw1z]

If only there was some technology that would better suit the purpose.

 

[Pohemi]

I guess no one ever told the guy you can just wipe it off after the meter maid goes by.

Depending on where you are...get caught doing it by the meter maid, and you're likely in trouble for interference with 'official city business' or similar.

"Once we establish it's a search"

How the !@#$ is that?
Marking a tire is not breaking into and searching the inside contents of a vehicle.
I am met with outrage over the absurdity, and a lack of explanation.

You are outraged by this? How many things have I witnessed you rationalize, justify, excuse or handwave away on these boards, and yet THIS is the kind of thing that outrages you?! LOL.

The chalk is lazy chalk right? Cause there would be other indicators on said tire that indicate if its been moving or not.

So the assumption is that they always put the chalk in the same spot right?
All you have to do is go chalking peoples tires up in the wrong spots -or the right spot-.. let it rip and when hellfire ensures, they're gonna get rid of that practice real fast.

No, they won't. They'll just have more tickets given that day, and some pissed off drivers wondering how they managed to get tickets when they weren't parked there longer than the time limits...

If only there was some technology that would better suit the purpose.

I'm in a small town here, so take this with said grain of salt, but...

NYC had a court case on this, and the judge decided that it was unconstitutional search as well. Within 6 months of that outcome (mighta been coincidental timing), the 'parking nazis' here with their Jeep Wranglers and chalksticks disappeared, and the city purchased a minivan outfitted with cameras and sensors, that is now driven by volunteers.

It collects photos similar to a Google Street-view van, only of curbside vehicles instead of the buildings. It apparently detects if/when vehicles have been somewhere over the time limit, and will snap a pic of their plate, and the system auto-mails them a parking ticket. No chalkmarks, no tickets on the windshield.

Obviously the fully-equipped van cost the city a pretty penny, but it's replaced at least 4-6 Wranglers, not to mention the hated guys that drove them. It's unpaid volunteers that drive it around now (I have no idea how those drivers are approved, fwiw).

I don't know that it would be a viable solution in a larger city, but it seems to work okay here.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Depending on where you are...get caught doing it by the meter maid, and you're likely in trouble for interference with 'official city business' or similar.

You are outraged by this? How many things have I witnessed you rationalize, justify, excuse or handwave away on these boards, and yet THIS is the kind of thing that outrages you?! LOL.

No, they won't. They'll just have more tickets given that day, and some pissed off drivers wondering how they managed to get tickets when they weren't parked there longer than the time limits...

I'm in a small town here, so take this with said grain of salt, but...

NYC had a court case on this, and the judge decided that it was unconstitutional search as well. Within 6 months of that outcome (mighta been coincidental timing), the 'parking nazis' here with their Jeep Wranglers and chalksticks disappeared, and the city purchased a minivan outfitted with cameras and sensors, that is now driven by volunteers.

It collects photos similar to a Google Street-view van, only of curbside vehicles instead of the buildings. It apparently detects if/when vehicles have been somewhere over the time limit, and will snap a pic of their plate, and the system auto-mails them a parking ticket. No chalkmarks, no tickets on the windshield.

I don't know that it would be a viable solution in a larger city, but it seems to have worked okay here.

I was just saying something to this effect to my wife. We literally have government cars driving around scanning cars all day, since when did we have to fall back to chalk?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Without reading the link to me leaving your car on a public road makes you agree to the rules of that road and a chalk mark on the side of a tire would be one of the rules.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I was just saying something to this effect to my wife. We literally have government cars driving around scanning cars all day, since when did we have to fall back to chalk?

going to guess it is a free parking area like park not more than 30 minutes or sometimes in busy areas there will be some kind of meter & a two hour limit can’t keep feeding the meter in this scenario. Kind of need chalk for this stuff.

 

[ch33zw1z]

going to guess it is a free parking area like park not more than 30 minutes or sometimes in busy areas there will be some kind of meter & a two hour limit can’t keep feeding the meter in this scenario. Kind of need chalk for this stuff.

No idea. Either way, technology is the answer. Any punk kid can wreak havoc with a stick of chalk and a washcloth.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

No idea. Either way, technology is the answer. Any punk kid can wreak havoc with a stick of chalk and a washcloth.

Big cities have been chalking tires for decades, simple and effective. Hasn’t been a problem to my knowledge.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Big cities have been chalking tires for decades, simple and effective. Hasn’t been a problem to my knowledge.

That's cool, I rarely visit the bigger cities. The smaller metro areas I'm used to, but I haven't seen this done.