A case for religion, and against AA.

[JEDIYoda]

William Lane Craig has never won a debate. Ever.

Again your opinion! Which adds up to what? ahh...your touting Sam Harris....now that's a joke!!

 

[ThinClient]

You're really trolling at this point. While I don't see an inherent reason for "free will", as something independent of the machinery of the brain, to exist, you're not having an intellectual debate. Thus far, your contribution to this thread has largely been a series of ad-hominem attacks and appeals to authority. (Sam Harris is a neuroscientist! Thus, he knows about free will!) By not actually having any sort of substance to attach yourself to, you've more or less created an environment where you can't be proven wrong and you can hover above and taunt people.

Please reconsider your approach. It's not likely to do anything except make people angry.

Of course. Do you honestly expect to get a reasonable argument out of a religious person? Rob M. and Pray to Jesus are flawless examples of bringing an intellectually honest debate to someone and having them offer you nothing but horse shit in return.

They're not interested in a reasonable, honest debate. This isn't the first rodeo that they've been involved in, so don't pretend that they haven't been asked these questions before and that they haven't provided the same horse shit responses before, either.

All they're interested in doing is trolling these threads so I provide them exactly the same effort in return.

If someone of your caliber were on the opposing side, we'd have an amazing debate. Cheers.

 

[ThinClient]

Again your opinion! Which adds up to what? ahh...your touting Sam Harris....now that's a joke!!

Sam Harris brings actual evidence. Real proof. Observable, measurable, repeatable, objective evidence. William Lane Craig brings nothing but pointless rhetoric and trite religious bullshit.

 

[ThinClient]

Actions have consequences.

The sky is blue.

So fucking what?

 

[soulcougher73]

I thought it was an interesting quote.

Prayers work for me. 100% success rate. I always end my prayer by praying and affirming that God's will be done and not mine.

ROFL. Of course its 100% when you leave it up to someone else's will without knowing what his will actually was.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

The sky is blue.

So fucking what?

A nice day to go outside.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Of course. Do you honestly expect to get a reasonable argument out of a religious person? Rob M. and Pray to Jesus are flawless examples of bringing an intellectually honest debate to someone and having them offer you nothing but horse shit in return.

They're not interested in a reasonable, honest debate. This isn't the first rodeo that they've been involved in, so don't pretend that they haven't been asked these questions before and that they haven't provided the same horse shit responses before, either.

All they're interested in doing is trolling these threads so I provide them exactly the same effort in return.

If someone of your caliber were on the opposing side, we'd have an amazing debate. Cheers.

I've actually had some really good interactions on this topic with Rob M. Have we come around to each others' viewpoints? No, but we're at least able to express where we come from and understand the other's point of view. You, on the other hand, seem to have no interest in understanding the other person, and thus have no hope of either convincing anyone of your argument or of learning something about people. Why, then, do you bother? Is it simply out of a desire to agitate others for sport? If that's the case, P&N is a much better place to spend your time than here.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

ROFL. Of course its 100% when you leave it up to someone else's will without knowing what his will actually was.

100% prayer success rate is pretty amazing. I'm so happy that I'm blessed by God.

 

[jhbball]

100% prayer success rate is pretty amazing. Prayer works perfectly.

Could you describe some of your prayers that were answered? I was a practicing Christian for 10 years, but never had a prayer answered.

 

[ThinClient]

I've actually had some really good interactions on this topic with Rob M. Have we come around to each others' viewpoints? No, but we're at least able to express where we come from and understand the other's point of view. You, on the other hand, seem to have no interest in understanding the other person, and thus have no hope of either convincing anyone of your argument or of learning something about people. Why, then, do you bother? Is it simply out of a desire to agitate others for sport? If that's the case, P&N is a much better place to spend your time than here.

You should have seen him when he got here originally. He used to rage pretty hard.

He's come around quite a bit, as you can see by some of his entirely reasonable posts in this very thread.

Go back and read his posts in some of the early debates. It was pretty bad.

There are a few religious people who are willing to be honest in this kind of debate. They're diamonds in the rough. It's entirely worth it to find one and have a rational discussion about it, without going through this whole I HAVE EVIDENCE, BUT ONLY I SAW IT BUT IT'S STILL REAL CUZ JESUS AND STUFF. Those kinds of people deserve every ounce of ridicule they get.

 

[ThinClient]

100% prayer success rate is pretty amazing. I'm so happy that I'm blessed by God.

Delusional. The text book definition of it.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm generally distrustful of my ability to proclaim effectiveness based on a sample size of one, even (especially) if that single data point is my own experience. I have my personal biases, and my results would likely be distorted without external controls.

I can agree, but see, you seem to take a position that if everything can be explained naturally (or by some other means a part from prayer), then you can systematically disprove that prayer works.

I understand that praying for a job, for instance, once or twice could mean that its coincidence. But some things aren't coincidence, especially if it seems to happen every time after you've offered prayer.

For us believers, we believe prayer does need to meet God's approval (like one shouldn't expect prayers that asks for harm to be brought onto others to be answered), so I believe that one would need to meet reasonable expectations.

FWIW, I take part in prayer quite often. My wife is in seminary. I frequently attend services. I enjoy them. I love the communal experience of religion. There is, at least at the moment, no equivalent institution for atheists that really matches the mixture of tradition, ritual, and community that organized religion provides. I see no reason to believe in any sort of God, however. I'm surrounded by people who strongly disagree with me. They're smart people, ones I respect greatly. I do not think you or anyone else is stupid for believing in God, but I disagree with you nonetheless. I do worry, though, when that belief in a particular God affects other parts of society (issues regarding civil liberties, sexual health, science education, and the like).

I agree with your statement, but I think religion should be much more than community, comfort, and support...as those things are not unique to any religion or religion in general.

You should learn something when going to Church...you go there to be educated about the Bible and God, not just to seek community (not saying you are, just speaking generally) and comfort.

But...if that's make you a better person, I'm all for it.

 

[ThinClient]

I can agree, but see, you seem to take a position that if everything can be explained naturally (or by some other means a part from prayer), then you can systematically disprove that prayer works.

Stop. False premise.

Nobody's disproving prayer. We're simply demanding evidence to support the positive claim that prayer works.

Without that evidence, the original premise, the positive claim that prayer works, is bogus.

Confirmation bias is not evidence.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Stop. False premise.

Nobody's disproving prayer. We're simply demanding evidence to support the positive claim that prayer works.

Without that evidence, the original premise, the positive claim that prayer works, is bogus.

Confirmation bias is not evidence.

We're simply demanding evidence .....hahah another ThinClient talking point....why?
So you can go about trying to dismiss what Rob would consider an answer to prayer?
The issue with prayer along with the subject of faith is they are both entirely what the person believes...it doesn`t matter if you believe that the prayer was answered or not.
That is a moot point......you can make fun of and bad mouth and makes jokes all you want...that has no bearing on the power of prayer in an individuals life!

You on the other hand when pressed to back up your word use questionable sources and oftimes you are just trolling with no real intent to have a serious discussion.


as was said about you earlier -- You, on the other hand, seem to have no interest in understanding the other person, and thus have no hope of either convincing anyone of your argument or of learning something about people. Why, then, do you bother? Is it simply out of a desire to agitate others for sport?

They key word is understanding!! It does not take proof to understand somebody`s viewpoint or even to discuss the viewpoint! To understand does not mean to agree with....

 

[ThinClient]

Ah, yes, the "we don't have to prove anything but we're still going to make positive claims up the wazoo and try to indoctrinate everyone else as our holy book of fairy tales demands that we do" argument.

Who says I don't understand it? It's still false and I don't agree with it, but it's a complete falsehood to claim that someone who opposes you simply doesn't understand it.

"Oh, he doesn't believe, he must not understand it."

 

[soulcougher73]

Didn`t you know he doesn`t have to provide links? After all, he`s an Atheist! They make up the rules as they go.....

Lol owned.

 

[ThinClient]

Lol owned.

You're claiming that the weakest, most intellectually dishonest statement in this thread is ownage?

That says a lot about you.

 

[crashtestdummy]

You should have seen him when he got here originally. He used to rage pretty hard.

He's come around quite a bit, as you can see by some of his entirely reasonable posts in this very thread.

Go back and read his posts in some of the early debates. It was pretty bad.

There are a few religious people who are willing to be honest in this kind of debate. They're diamonds in the rough. It's entirely worth it to find one and have a rational discussion about it, without going through this whole I HAVE EVIDENCE, BUT ONLY I SAW IT BUT IT'S STILL REAL CUZ JESUS AND STUFF. Those kinds of people deserve every ounce of ridicule they get.

I think you will find that a lot more people will "come around" if you treat them like adults, even if at the moment they don't seem to you like they are. Sometimes, all it takes is a little undeserved kindness to make people much more reasonable.

 

[ThinClient]

I think you will find that a lot more people will "come around" if you treat them like adults, even if at the moment they don't seem to you like they are. Sometimes, all it takes is a little undeserved kindness to make people much more reasonable.

I've treated them like adults plenty. I always do, initially. I always make a solid effort with each new person who's willing to debate. When they prove, repeatedly, that they're more inclined to be intentionally intellectually dishonest, and only after repeated demonstrations, do I start playing their own game until they shut up.

They ARE offered undeserved kindness many times in the beginning. You're pretending like this is the first conversation we've had with Rob and PtJ.

You aren't the first to say this. You aren't bringing anything new to the table. I prefer to ridicule Rob M. and Pray to Jesus because of the disrespect they bring to these debates. Their negative actions deserve negative consequences. Hell, it's even working on Rob M. who's coming around. It'll work on Pray to Jesus soon enough, or he'll just leave the discussion like he's done so many times before so we can get back to a legitimate debate.

 

[JEDIYoda]

let me give you an example of what I would consider to be an answer to prayer with no explainable other outcome!

True story --
I had a friend who left the country to go to England! I collected her mail and would open them for her when she communicated via Skype!

Well all her accounts were frozen by the Federal tax people.
Seems she owed over $12,000 in back taxes.
She called the tax people and managed to get her accounts unfrozen.
Then she asked me to pray that this matter will get solved.
Then 3 days later, it took her that long to get a line through to speak to a real person.
Seems she did owe the money and they wanted the money now and because it was over 7 years ago she could not set up a payment plan via the internet.
During the same call she asked to speak to a supervisor. The supervisor informed her that she did not owe the $12, 000 and than she owed only $6,000. She asked how did that happen?
It seems that during the 3 days that we had been praying the government deducted money that was owed her from the past.
Now it gets better.......
I being a stubborn person went online and using information that she gave me tried to set up a payment online.......well I succeeded......and when the total that she owed came on the screen she now owed get this $1,500. needed less to say she made 3 payments as was done with the whole thing!

Now there is a retired IRS agent who has a very successful Tax office locally who is also a friend of mine. I related the story to him. he said that had never happened in a 30years that he had worked fore the IRS. In fact when he heard what I told him he asked me to bring my friend by when she comes back from England.

Well they met and she allowed him to make some calls to verify what had happened.

he was besides himself......again everyone he talked to about this had told him there must be some mistake, this never ever happens. Well to this day I claim this as being an answer to prayer!!

Discuss....

 

[JEDIYoda]

Ah, yes, the "we don't have to prove anything but we're still going to make positive claims up the wazoo and try to indoctrinate everyone else as our holy book of fairy tales demands that we do" argument.

Who says I don't understand it? It's still false and I don't agree with it, but it's a complete falsehood to claim that someone who opposes you simply doesn't understand it.

"Oh, he doesn't believe, he must not understand it."

You keep posting your idiotic nonsense and your Atheistic party responses when all you are managing to do is give the really good atheists a bad name!!

That's okay -- you can srcream and hollew give me proof all you want -- when you post links you expect us to take them hook line and sinker.....you should know better. Some of us actually to click the link and try to understand!

I am afraid that you have never click or read anything we have posted in an effort to understand!

why?
Your response will be -- why should I try to understand fairly tales??

My response is that you are trolling this thread if you have nothing to offer!

 

[ThinClient]

Yes, sometimes things happen that are beyond the explanation of the people who originally observed it.

That's not proof that prayer caused it.

That's called confirmation bias. Do you understand what confirmation bias is?

 

[ThinClient]

You keep posting your idiotic nonsense and your Atheistic party responses when all you are managing to do is give the really good atheists a bad name!!

That's okay -- you can srcream and hollew give me proof all you want -- when you post links you expect us to take them hook line and sinker.....you should know better. Some of us actually to click the link and try to understand!

I am afraid that you have never click or read anything we have posted in an effort to understand!

why?
Your response will be -- why should I try to understand fairly tales??

My response is that you are trolling this thread if you have nothing to offer!

Well, you're making claims that you can't prove. Again. You're claiming that I never click anything you provide and can't understand what your point is. Neither of these are true.

Thanks for proving my point beautifully.

 

[crashtestdummy]

I can agree, but see, you seem to take a position that if everything can be explained naturally (or by some other means a part from prayer), then you can systematically disprove that prayer works.

I understand that praying for a job, for instance, once or twice could mean that its coincidence. But some things aren't coincidence, especially if it seems to happen every time after you've offered prayer.

For us believers, we believe prayer does need to meet God's approval (like one shouldn't expect prayers that asks for harm to be brought onto others to be answered), so I believe that one would need to meet reasonable expectations.

I think where we misunderstand each other is at the term "disprove". I can tell you that I'm relatively uninterested in the "proof" or lack thereof of prayer. Whether or not God is listening to my words is of little importance to me. If, however, you were able to demonstrate that by the use of words, I could improve my health, foster peace in the world, or even get my favorite sports team to win, then I would be delighted. It would be perhaps the most important, most radical scientific discovery of the past 150 years. Think of the things we could accomplish with such a power!

Unfortunately, at the moment there is no evidence beyond personal anecdote that such a power exists. As with anything else that is hypothetical and interesting but has no tangible impact on my life, I live my life as if the possibility were not there. It is not that I am proclaiming that prayer cannot or even does not work, but rather that if you can't give me a way to evaluate or test it objectively, I can't do anything with it.

I agree with your statement, but I think religion should be much more than community, comfort, and support...as those things are not unique to any religion or religion in general.

You should learn something when going to Church...you go there to be educated about the Bible and God, not just to seek community (not saying you are, just speaking generally) and comfort.

But...if that's make you a better person, I'm all for it.

I understand that, and certainly I'm very much aware that shul (I'm Jewish) bears a context for most of those in the room with me that I don't share. The experience is a positive one for me, though, and I'll continue with it so long as that remains the case.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Could you describe some of your prayers that were answered? I was a practicing Christian for 10 years, but never had a prayer answered.

Wife got an unexpected offer for the perfect job that she didn't even know existed a couple weeks after quitting her previous job because it was unsuited for her.

Dad, life long smoker, had a lung mass on Xray. Biopsy a few week later: benign.

Mom w/ breast mass a month later. Biopsy 2 weeks later: benign.


and some others