A case for religion, and against AA.

[ThinClient]

You do the same thing all the time.

No, I don't -not in the slightest. Even claiming that I do proves that you are incapable of either 1) realizing the difference between true and false or 2) being willing to acknowledge anything as truth if it contradicts the agenda that you want to push (your religion).

I ask you and others for evidence to support your positive claim that your god is real, that your holy book is anything more than a book of fairy tales, that christ was divine, ad nauseum.

All I get in return is circular reasoning, confirmation bias, or "IT JUST IS, I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE IT TO YOU" bullshit. Religious zealots are a fucking joke.

 

[dphantom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTEmu-jUqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZLyYq_QQ3g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq_tG5UJMs0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf9eGUWGtyo

Watch from the top down.

They are all Sam Harris. You said "neuroscience professionals". While I am at work and have no time to watch them in their entirety, (but I will watch one or two this evening) I was expecting as your proof peer reviewed papers, scientific evidence. Not philosophical discussions since you have rejected those of Christians and their belief in God.

 

[crashtestdummy]

You have a way to test it. Try it yourself -- it's the best test. If it doesn't work, then you have your answer.

I'm generally distrustful of my ability to proclaim effectiveness based on a sample size of one, even (especially) if that single data point is my own experience. I have my personal biases, and my results would likely be distorted without external controls.

FWIW, I take part in prayer quite often. My wife is in seminary. I frequently attend services. I enjoy them. I love the communal experience of religion. There is, at least at the moment, no equivalent institution for atheists that really matches the mixture of tradition, ritual, and community that organized religion provides. I see no reason to believe in any sort of God, however. I'm surrounded by people who strongly disagree with me. They're smart people, ones I respect greatly. I do not think you or anyone else is stupid for believing in God, but I disagree with you nonetheless. I do worry, though, when that belief in a particular God affects other parts of society (issues regarding civil liberties, sexual health, science education, and the like).

 

[Retro Rob]

So why would god allow Job's entire family to be murdered just to test Job's faith? Why would god allow such suffering? I know the answer is "well it doesn't matter because he got another family and got other shit back too" but that's no reason to cause someone to suffer on the level that Job suffered. "For the glory of god" is also another likely answer, but is a complete non-sequitur.

God wasn't "testing Job's faith". As I recall, Satan was the one who said Job would turn his back on God, and that the reason why he [Job] was a worshipper is because God was protecting him.

God allowed Satan do whatever he wanted to prove his claim, short of killing Job himself.

Job really had nothing to do with that, as much as it was a case of Satan proving his challenge. He was the one who involved Job....I don't see how you gather that God was testing his faith.

 

[ThinClient]

They are all Sam Harris. You said "neuroscience professionals". While I am at work and have no time to watch them in their entirety, (but I will watch one or two this evening) I was expecting as your proof peer reviewed papers, scientific evidence. Not philosophical discussions since you have rejected those of Christians and their belief in God.

He has plenty of peer reviewed papers and scientific evidence. This is simply him presenting such things to you, the viewer, directly.

I won't stop you from googling him and reading his peer reviewed objective scientific evidence.

 

[ThinClient]

God wasn't "testing Job's faith". As I recall, Satan was the one who said Job would turn his back on God, and that the reason why he [Job] was a worshipper is because God was protecting him.

God allowed Satan do whatever he wanted to prove his claim, short of killing Job himself.

Job really had nothing to do with that, as much as it was a case of Satan proving his challenge. He was the one who involved Job....I don't see how you gather that God was testing his faith.

So god allows truly profound levels of suffering to occur because he's too busy involved with a pissing match with one of his own creations to bother making an effort to avoid said human suffering.

Okay.

So god is malevolent and capricious.

I see your point.

 

[Retro Rob]

So god allows truly profound levels of suffering to occur because he's too busy involved with a pissing match with one of his own creations to bother making an effort to avoid said human suffering.

Hey, I read it as God proving that people serve him regardless, and that people still love God despite suffering.

WHat makes your view more correct than mine?

Of course, you take a different perspective opposite of mine.

 

[dphantom]

I'm just saying, if you're gonna say things are a part of Gods plan, you have to be prepared to answer questions like "was it Gods plan that my mom got cancer and suffered and died" or "was it Gods plan that all those kids (many of whom had Christian parents) was murdered at Sandy hook?"

Just saying that's a loaded statement, and those are legit questions.

In my personal opinion, then I do believe that was part of God's plan. Anyone's death is an awful event for their loved one's. But that loss may be a lesson for you, or for me, or for someone that then makes a difference in the lives of many.

I won't presume to speak for God. But as tragic as the loss of your mother was to cancer, or the early loss of my father to a massive heart attack, I know - for me - it was part of God's plan. I believe that to the depth of my soul the passing of my father helped me want to be a better father, a better husband, a better Christian. But I still miss him and often wish we could sit down and talk like we used to.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Your experiences are nothing but fictional truth claims that you can't prove are true.

Do you even understand the concept of confirmation bias? Your post that I quoted right here strongly suggests that you have no fucking idea what confirmation bias even means or why it is relevant.

I don't need to prove what I experienced to myself. It happened and I trust my memory of past events.

I am not trying to prove anything to you. That's God job, remember?

You claim that confirmation bias is relevant as far as my experience is concerned, but you can't back up that claim in anyway. I'm not convinced.

I am claiming that after analysis of my memory, I don't have confirmation bias. I am the sole witness and I have a lot more information available to make my claim.

It's my experience, therefore I have a much better claim reliability than you. I am obligated to believe my claim because because it's a lot more reliable than yours.

 

[ThinClient]

Hey, I read it as God proving that people serve him regardless, and that people still love God despite suffering.

WHat makes your view more correct than mine?

Of course, you take a different perspective opposite of mine.

Yes, I take a different perspective. I see personal suffering and a god who doesn't give enough of a shit to avoid it or prevent it. It's like human suffering is some completely arbitrary experience that he couldn't possibly care about because he's too busy in an e-peen fight with a creation that he created to be evil in the first place.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yes, I take a different perspective. I see personal suffering and a god who doesn't give enough of a shit to avoid it or prevent it. It's like human suffering is some completely arbitrary experience that he couldn't possibly care about because he's too busy in an e-peen fight with a creation that he created to be evil in the first place.

My point is that your perspective doesn't make you right. I know you think it does, but it doesn't.

 

[ThinClient]

I don't need to prove what I know to myself. I am definitely not trying to prove anything to you. That's God job, remember?

You claim that confirmation bias is relevant to how I know what I know, but you can't prove your claim.

The Son of Sam truly believed that a dog was speaking to him in English, telling him to kill people.

Charles Manson truly believed that the Beatles music was telling him to kill Sharon Tate and that the race riots were coming.

Neither theirs nor yours is any more or less viable when it comes to evidence. Just because you believe it doesn't mean it's real.

"No amount of belief can make something a fact." -Randi

 

[ThinClient]

My point is that your perspective doesn't make you right. I know you think it does, but it doesn't.

Your perspective doesn't make you right, either.

This is why it comes down to objective evidence, of which you have zero to support all of your positive claims about your religion. This is why you fail. This is why you are wrong.

 

[ThinClient]

In my personal opinion, then I do believe that was part of God's plan. Anyone's death is an awful event for their loved one's. But that loss may be a lesson for you, or for me, or for someone that then makes a difference in the lives of many.

I won't presume to speak for God. But as tragic as the loss of your mother was to cancer, or the early loss of my father to a massive heart attack, I know - for me - it was part of God's plan. I believe that to the depth of my soul the passing of my father helped me want to be a better father, a better husband, a better Christian. But I still miss him and often wish we could sit down and talk like we used to.

Was it part of god's plan that some little girl was imprisoned with her sisters in a German basement and raped DAILY for 30 years? Was it part of god's plan that their prayers and their screams went unanswered and ignored for 30 years?

Was it part of god's plan for Jews to be treated like they were in WW2?

What the fuck kind of god do you worship?

 

[Retro Rob]

Your perspective doesn't make you right, either.

This is why it comes down to objective evidence, of which you have zero to support all of your positive claims about your religion. This is why you fail. This is why you are wrong.

You have to read the account. A person challenges you by challenging your creation, you let him prove him claim. If he cannot, he proved himself wrong. You give him time and opportunity to prove himself correct.

I hear ya, the part about Job suffering is hard to reconcile -- I agree. But Satan said that Job would "curse him [God] to his face".

He simply had to prove that, and quite honestly, nothing would make a man turn on God more than taking things from him.

Time and opportunity needed to be afforded to Satan...enough to make good on his claims.

 

[JEDIYoda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTEmu-jUqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZLyYq_QQ3g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq_tG5UJMs0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf9eGUWGtyo

Watch from the top down.

way too funny!! He gives no scientific proof other than his opinion as a neuroscientist! Nothing is written in a scientisifc journal...etc....rofl...that's not proof!!

Do we really need to go down the youtube road??
I guess we do...for every youtube video that you post about what Sam Harris belives, I can post debunking what Sam Harris says....

William Lane Craig Destroys Sam Harris in debate!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W_lQQqm_K4&list=PL222C14645D9D45E6&index=1


Sam Harris gets Humiliated on TV by Hugh Hewitt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mhu6iqo3Pg


Sam Harris: Lousy Scientist & Terrible Philosopher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSJsBHrVMPs&list=PL222C14645D9D45E6

http://www.michaelsherlock.org/forum/atheist-apologetics/articles-debunking-sam-harris/

***********************************

The Logical Incoherency of Atheist Sam Harris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwjTcPW_78&list=PL222C14645D9D45E6


I have always found Sam Harris an interesting character. He is portrayed as kind of the soft voice of the New Atheism and appears more tolerant than the other famous writers on the topic. But are his ideas correct? Do they carry weight? Here is a collection of articles which argues NO! Make of them what you will.

Sam Harris, uncovered
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/sam-harris-uncovered.html

What’s Wrong with Sam Harris’ The Moral Landscape (review)
http://www.uncrediblehallq.net/2011/01/11/whats-wrong-with-sam-harris-the-moral-landscape-review/

Sam Harris is Nonsensical in Principle
http://joelgrus.com/2010/10/03/sam-harris-is-nonsensical-in-principle/

Epistle To A Sam Harris Nation: Debunking The Moral Landscape
http://www.smashwords.com/extreader...m-harris-nation-debunking-the-moral-landscape

Book Review: The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, Part 1
http://moralmindfield.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/book-review-the-moral-landscape-by-sam-harris-part-1/

Book Review: The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, Part 2
http://moralmindfield.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/book-review-the-moral-landscape-by-sam-harris-part-2/

Sam Harris debunked, phase II
http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/2011/03/sam-harris-debunked-phase-ii.html

 

[dphantom]

Was it part of god's plan that some little girl was imprisoned with her sisters in a German basement and raped DAILY for 30 years? Was it part of god's plan that their prayers and their screams went unanswered and ignored for 30 years?

Was it part of god's plan for Jews to be treated like they were in WW2?

What the fuck kind of god do you worship?

I will engage in discussion but not when you are so vile and coarse.

I do not know what the German story is. You fail to provide a reference.

The Jews suffered horribly in WWII. It left a stain on human civilization for all time I believe. But in the end, it took something like the Holocaust to get the Jews their homeland. Maybe that was God's plan.

I worship a loving compassionate God who knows all - more than you or I can possibly imagine.

As for Sam Harris, a vry brief search turned up several books, but I have not yet found any scientific papers he authored and peer reviewed that disprove free will. His books certainly propse such, but I have no acces to the books so am waiting for you to provide at least one link to a peer reviewed scientific study.

Also, am waiting for the " 's ". Sam harris is one. Let's have some others please. You made the statement in plural. Show me multiple examples to back up your positive assertion. Isn't that how we are supposed to do that?

 

[ThinClient]

You have to read the account. A person challenges you by challenging your creation, you let him prove him claim. If he cannot, he proved himself wrong. You give him time and opportunity to prove himself correct.

I hear ya, the part about Job suffering is hard to reconcile -- I agree. But Satan said that Job would "curse him [God] to his face".

He simply had to prove that, and quite honestly, nothing would make a man turn on God more than taking things from him.

Time and opportunity needed to be afforded to Satan...enough to make good on his claims.

I've given you plenty of opportunity to provide evidence for your religious claims. You do not.

 

[ThinClient]

I will engage in discussion but not when you are so vile and coarse.

I do not know what the German story is. You fail to provide a reference.

The Jews suffered horribly in WWII. It left a stain on human civilization for all time I believe. But in the end, it took something like the Holocaust to get the Jews their homeland. Maybe that was God's plan.

I worship a loving compassionate God who knows all - more than you or I can possibly imagine.

You worship a figment of your imagination. You know why I'm coarse? Because I'm irritated that I ask every single christian willing to debate for proof and all I get in return is bullshit like confirmation bias, circular reasoning, or flat out nothing at all, yet they point the finger and tell everyone who disagrees with them that they're wrong. They are perpetuating intellectual dishonesty. They are full of shit! I'm irritated because they are fucking snake oil salesmen!

As for Sam Harris, a vry brief search turned up several books, but I have not yet found any scientific papers he authored and peer reviewed that disprove free will. His books certainly propse such, but I have no acces to the books so am waiting for you to provide at least one link to a peer reviewed scientific study.

Like I said, I won't stop you from googling his actual neuroscience papers. I know you won't, though, because you're not really interested in truth. You're only interested in arguing. That's fine, you fit the bill for the rest of your religious ilk. Just because you're not interested in educating yourself doesn't mean that the information doesn't exist. I've provided enough information for you to continue with your own self-education. I'm not going to spoon feed this to you like you're a child. You're an adult. If you're actually interested in truth, you can google it yourself.

Also, am waiting for the " 's ". Sam harris is one. Let's have some others please. You made the statement in plural. Show me multiple examples to back up your positive assertion. Isn't that how we are supposed to do that?

See previous paragraph.

 

[jhbball]

I'm curious about the age/circumstance at which religion becomes 'locked in' for some people. In the recent debate, Ken Ham stated that there's essentially no amount of evidence that will change his mind on his young-earth creationist view point. It appears there are several posters in this thread that share a similar mindset.

 

[JEDIYoda]

This is important -- but then again who wants to disappoint what Atheists believe or think is the truth.....

William Lane Craig's Post-Debate Thoughts on Sam Harris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCQn5WHGtVc

We can even post this video --

A critique of Islam --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSLSfatyeqo

Have fun!!

 

[ThinClient]

way too funny!! He gives no scientific proof other than his opinion as a neuroscientist! Nothing is written in a scientisifc journal...etc....rofl...that's not proof!!

Do we really need to go down the youtube road??
I guess we do...for every youtube video that you post about what Sam Harris belives, I can post debunking what Sam Harris says....

William Lane Craig Destroys Sam Harris in debate!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W_lQQqm_K4&list=PL222C14645D9D45E6&index=1


Sam Harris gets Humiliated on TV by Hugh Hewitt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mhu6iqo3Pg


Sam Harris: Lousy Scientist & Terrible Philosopher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSJsBHrVMPs&list=PL222C14645D9D45E6

http://www.michaelsherlock.org/forum/atheist-apologetics/articles-debunking-sam-harris/

***********************************

The Logical Incoherency of Atheist Sam Harris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwjTcPW_78&list=PL222C14645D9D45E6


I have always found Sam Harris an interesting character. He is portrayed as kind of the soft voice of the New Atheism and appears more tolerant than the other famous writers on the topic. But are his ideas correct? Do they carry weight? Here is a collection of articles which argues NO! Make of them what you will.

Sam Harris, uncovered
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/sam-harris-uncovered.html

What’s Wrong with Sam Harris’ The Moral Landscape (review)
http://www.uncrediblehallq.net/2011/01/11/whats-wrong-with-sam-harris-the-moral-landscape-review/

Sam Harris is Nonsensical in Principle
http://joelgrus.com/2010/10/03/sam-harris-is-nonsensical-in-principle/

Epistle To A Sam Harris Nation: Debunking The Moral Landscape
http://www.smashwords.com/extreader...m-harris-nation-debunking-the-moral-landscape

Book Review: The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, Part 1
http://moralmindfield.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/book-review-the-moral-landscape-by-sam-harris-part-1/

Book Review: The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, Part 2
http://moralmindfield.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/book-review-the-moral-landscape-by-sam-harris-part-2/

Sam Harris debunked, phase II
http://davidgriffey.blogspot.com/2011/03/sam-harris-debunked-phase-ii.html

Oh look, counter claims by a crowd of people who all have religious bias and offer absolutely zero evidence, unlike Sam Harris, who offers real objective falsifiable observable and measurable evidence to support his claims about free will. Color me surprised.

 

[dphantom]

I've given you plenty of opportunity to provide evidence for your religious claims. You do not.

Indeed. Sounds similar to what you do as well. That is, not provide any evidence.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm curious about the age/circumstance at which religion becomes 'locked in' for some people. In the recent debate, Ken Ham stated that there's essentially no amount of evidence that will change his mind on his young-earth creationist view point. It appears there are several posters in this thread that share a similar mindset.

I personally liked that debate. When we can have a good exchange without all the personal attacking and anger, then people are more apt to listen.

Regardless of the polarizing views, I would love to see a debate like that more often.

 

[ThinClient]

This is important -- but then again who wants to disappoint what Atheists believe or think is the truth.....

William Lane Craig's Post-Debate Thoughts on Sam Harris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCQn5WHGtVc

We can even post this video --

A critique of Islam --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSLSfatyeqo

Have fun!!

William Lane Craig is a psychotic young-earth creationist fundamentalist who has absolutely zero scientific background. He's a snake oil salesman.