A case for religion, and against AA.

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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQorzOS-F6w&t=11m15s

Until 11:48

Doesn't sound righteous in my opinion.
Not related at all...in fact this is more atheist talking points...sadly this is not applicable at all....

In fact why were you afraid to say this is a video that is talking about Christopher Hitchens.....total idiot and not very intelligent when it comes to religious matters!!

rofl@SlowSpyder....

But let me say at least now Christopher Hutchens can come to grips with the eternal question is there really a God...lolol...
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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Not related at all...in fact this is more atheist talking points...sadly this is not applicable at all....

In fact why were you afraid to say this is a video that is talking about Christopher Hitchens.....total idiot and not very intelligent when it comes to religious matters!!

rofl@SlowSpyder....

But let me say at least now Christopher Hutchens can come to grips with the eternal question is there really a God...lolol...


It is related to what is being discussed. Did your god command genocide? Sure seems like a lot of side stepping that question. Even trying to redefine genocide to make what your god commands in the bible look less evil than what his deeds make him appear to be.

Christopher Hitchens is many times more likely to be where he thought he was going after death than where you think he is.

Bolded - I see you really do take after your god. You seem to revel in the death of people.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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It is related to what is being discussed. Did your god command genocide? Sure seems like a lot of side stepping that question. Even trying to redefine genocide to make what your god commands in the bible look less evil than what his deeds make him appear to be.

Christopher Hitchens is many times more likely to be where he thought he was going after death than where you think he is.

Bolded - I see you really do take after your god. You seem to revel in the death of people.
rofl....here we go again, showing your very limited understanding of scripture.

Is war genocide?

It`s quite obvious that you have not paid any attention to anything that has previously been said on the subject in this thread!
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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rofl....here we go again, showing your very limited understanding of scripture.

Is war genocide?

It`s quite obvious that you have not paid any attention to anything that has previously been said on the subject in this thread!


Is the object of war to kill both "man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey"? Does that sound more like Hitler would do or more like the military goals of the American military in say Afghanistan?

1 Samuel 15:1 - 15:4
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”?


Isaiah 13:15 - 13:18
Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children.

Is that war or war crimes?


Jeremiah 50:21- 50:22
“Go up against the land of Merathaim, and against the inhabitants of Pekod. Kill, and devote them to destruction, declares the Lord, and do all that I have commanded you. The noise of battle is in the land, and great destruction!

Drunk with blood.


Deuteronomy 2:30-2:35
But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day. And the Lord said to me, ‘Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to take possession, that you may occupy his land.’ Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Jahaz. And the Lord our God gave him over to us, and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors.

Righteous.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Nonsense.

:rolleyes:


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me compels him; and I will raise him up on the last day (John 6:44)


[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Can God Kill the Innocent?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]What about the children and other "innocents"
Surely God could have spared the children! People tend to assume that children are innocent, even if their parents are doing bad things. The assumption is unfounded. For example, Palestinian Muslim children are officially taught in grammar school to hate their Jewish neighbors. [17] They are so well indoctrinated that some of them give up their lives in suicide bombings as children. [18] Corruption literally does breed corruption, which is why God did not want the Hebrews tainted by the other corrupt cultures of the Middle East.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]InPlainSite.org Note: Many believe that the Bible gives absolutely no explanation for the extermination of young children which, if true, would leave the critics justified in believing that these actions were morally reprehensible and that the Jews, their religion and their God were no better than every one else. And if no explanation is provided we, as Christians, are left with little choice but to poke around and come up with some logical reasons this should have happened. However perhaps the Bible is not quite as silent on the topic as some think. Perhaps with a little digging we will unearth the underlying reason that all these people had to be exterminated, and was the right thing to do.
[See
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Joshua’s Conquest: Was it Justified?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Surely there must have been other innocent adults in those cities who were destroyed with the wicked! There actually is an example of a time when God was asked if He would destroy the innocent along with the wicked. Prior to destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked God if He would destroy the righteous along with the wicked. [19] God replied that He would spare the entire city for 50 righteous people. [20] Abraham kept reducing the possible number of righteous people, asking God if He would destroy the entire city along with those number of righteous people. [2]1 God's reply in each case was that He would not destroy the righteous along with the wicked. The lowest number Abraham asked about was ten righteous people, although the answer would likely be the same with as few as one righteous individual. How do we know this? God sent two angels to warn the four righteous people in Sodom to flee before He destroyed the city. [22] It is quite convenient that such details are usually left out of atheistic sites complaining about the "evil" perpetrated by God. In fact, God saved certain people from being killed in cities such as Jericho. [23]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Conclusion
The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is really not as general as the King James version would indicate. The commandment actually refers to premeditated, unjustified killing - murder. Although God ordered the extermination of entire cities, He did so in righteous judgment on a people whose corruption had led to extreme wickedness, including child sacrifice. Did God destroy the righteous along with the wicked? In an exchange with Abraham, God indicated that He would spare the wicked to save the righteous. He demonstrated this principle by saving righteous people from Sodom and Jericho prior to their destruction. The charge that God indiscriminately murdered people does not hold to to critical evaluation of the biblical texts.[/FONT]

 
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WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
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The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is really not as general as the King James version would indicate. The commandment actually refers to premeditated, unjustified killing - murder.

How can an all knowing god do anything that isn't premeditated?
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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How can an all knowing god do anything that isn't premeditated?

God is omniscient. Click to learn more about Christianity.

What Is Reformed Theology?


There is something healthy about returning to one’s roots. When it comes to evangelical Christianity, its roots are found in the soil of the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation. Just as the Reformers protested the corrupt teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, so today evangelicalism itself is in need of a modern reformation. In What Is Reformed Theology?, Dr. R.C. Sproul offers a comprehensive introduction to Reformed theology. Simply put, it is the theology of the Protestant Reformers and the heart of historical evangelicalism. As C.H. Spurgeon once said, Reformed theology is nothing other than biblical Christianity.
 
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Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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No. In this thread, I am judging Posters who insist that their Timeless Being they hold as Righteous and Holy as having been deceived. In my effort to help them see this fact, I am showing them that their Timeless Being is nether Righteous nor Holy.

To learn more about God as He reveals himself in the Bible:

The Holiness of God

The Holiness of God examines the meaning of holiness and why people are both fascinated and terrified by a holy God. This series closely explores God’s character, leading to new insights on sin, justice, and grace. The result is a new awareness of our dependence upon God’s mercy and a discovery of the awesomeness of His majestic holiness. Dr. R.C. Sproul says, “The holiness of God affects every aspect of our lives — economics, politics, athletics, romance — everything with which we are involved.”
 
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Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Rather than posting a link that doesn't answer the question at all, why don't you take a stab at it?

OK. If I do, will you listen to at least 1 portion of any link? Pick any part that interests you.

I really like this series; it has a lot of good in depth material about Christian theology:

Chosen By God



Many people reject Reformed theology or Calvinism because they believe it teaches that God drags people kicking and screaming into the church against their will. This, however, is a gross distortion of the biblical doctrine of election, which is grounded in God’s love for His people. In this series, Dr. Sproul carefully explains the meaning of God’s sovereignty in the work of redemption and shows how it relates to the will of man.
 
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WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
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Another link...:rolleyes:

I had enough of those "lessons" growing up, no thanks. If you don't have an answer, just say so.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Another link...:rolleyes:

I had enough of those "lessons" growing up, no thanks. If you don't have an answer, just say so.

You're asking for 30minutes+ of my time for a good custom answer but you don't want to spend less than that to listen to a good talk about a subject as an exchange. Why should I do it? It's a lot quicker for me to copy & paste good premade answers.
 
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WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,946
862
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You're asking for 30minutes+ of my time for a good answer but you don't want to spend less than that to listen to a good talk about a subject. Why should I do it rather than copy&paste premade answers?

I've already listened to plenty of apologist answers.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
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Probably won't have to, since you all seem afraid to answer any questions at all. Even the simple ones with yes or no answers.

Well you seem to want to dismiss answers out of hand (most here do), so that is what I am getting at. If you wanted an answer and you don't accept ready-made answers, that makes it seems like you actually aren't looking for one at all.

How can an omniscient God do anything that isn't premeditated?

Who says what He does isn't premeditated? Of course, knowing how something turns out and how you will respond does not make an action premeditated. I think that omniscience by definition rules out the possibility of premeditation b/c you already know what you are going to do. There is no room to premeditate anything. Of course, I have little experience with omniscience and existing outside of time/space, and our brains really can't work on that level, but we can make guesses, although our guesses are probably wrong. The best answer is probably "I don't know" b/c it is not possible to know. We just have to guess if we care to guess at all. Truth is, I don't even know if God can avoid knowing things or He has to know everything either. Also when you consider being outside time/space and visiting it from outside, that throws another whole mess in as well. It is all just conjecture, and as such, not very useful I suppose.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Well you seem to want to dismiss answers out of hand (most here do), so that is what I am getting at. If you wanted an answer and you don't accept ready-made answers, that makes it seems like you actually aren't looking for one at all.

How can an omniscient God do anything that isn't premeditated?

Who says what He does isn't premeditated? Of course, knowing how something turns out and how you will respond does not make an action premeditated. I think that omniscience by definition rules out the possibility of premeditation b/c you already know what you are going to do. There is no room to premeditate anything. Of course, I have little experience with omniscience and existing outside of time/space, and our brains really can't work on that level, but we can make guesses, although our guesses are probably wrong. The best answer is probably "I don't know" b/c it is not possible to know. We just have to guess if we care to guess at all. Truth is, I don't even know if God can avoid knowing things or He has to know everything either. Also when you consider being outside time/space and visiting it from outside, that throws another whole mess in as well. It is all just conjecture, and as such, not very useful I suppose.

It's not even about that. He was confused about what murder means.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
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The definition of murder is pretty clear.

It's religious zealots like Pray to Jesus who have to rationalize and twist the definition of the word to fit their agenda, to avoid accepting the fact that "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,725
6,754
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The definition of murder is pretty clear.

It's religious zealots like Pray to Jesus who have to rationalize and twist the definition of the word to fit their agenda, to avoid accepting the fact that "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins

Are you sure you're not talking about me?
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,622
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The definition of murder is pretty clear.

It's religious zealots like Pray to Jesus who have to rationalize and twist the definition of the word to fit their agenda, to avoid accepting the fact that "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins

Hahahah showing that Dawkins is intelligent enough to use a thesaurus, but not intelligent enough to comprehend theology? How sad. Dawkin's barely smart enough to be a figurehead for stupid angry atheists.

I can't even fault atheist zealots for their lack of faith. God shows mercy on whom he pleases:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me compels him; and I will raise him up on the last day (John 6:44).
I can fault them for being willfully ignorant of theology. Atheists spout a bunch of theological nonsense over and over.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,725
6,754
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Hahahah showing that Dawkins is intelligent enough to use a thesaurus, but not intelligent enough to comprehend theology? How sad. Dawkin's barely smart enough to be a figurehead for stupid angry atheists.

I can't even fault atheist zealots for their lack of faith. God shows mercy on whom he pleases:
I can fault them for being willfully ignorant of theology. Atheists spout a bunch of theological nonsense over and over.

He is compelled by the truth that he sees to speak as he does. How do you judge what compels him?