A case for religion, and against AA.

[ThinClient]

Are you sure you're not talking about me?

I didn't mention drugs, did I?

 

[ThinClient]

Hahahah showing that Dawkins is intelligent enough to use a thesaurus, but not intelligent enough to comprehend theology? How sad. Dawkin's barely smart enough to be a figurehead for stupid angry atheists.

I can't even fault atheist zealots for their lack of faith. God shows mercy on whom he pleases:
I can fault them for being willfully ignorant of theology. Atheists spout a bunch of theological nonsense over and over.

You're a young earth creationist, aren't you.

Admit it.

:awe:

Who's the angry one? You're the one calling people who don't agree with you "Satan"

 

[norseamd]

so about what you guys were talking about earlier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_ancient_Egyptian_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven_(antiquity)

 

[OverVolt]

Religion is very geographic. All because you grew up in the middle of nowhere baptist/fundamentalist christian crazy-ville doesn't mean Roman Catholics have the same beliefs. Or Judaism, or Lutherans, etc.

Thats why the Atheists are so ignorant IMO. Not once have I ever seen a gay man turned away from a service or given a hard time in the Roman Catholic church. You can't just project your vitriol onto everyone who believes in god because you are angry about creationism being proposed at a school in some town with 400 people.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

You're a young earth creationist, aren't you.

Admit it.

:awe:

Who's the angry one? You're the one calling people who don't agree with you "Satan"

Why do you keep bringing that up? Stop being such a drama queen and get over it like a man. :biggrin:

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."

God is not bound by time in anyway.

A day in Genesis can be any period of time. Billions of years and so forth.

I understand the Bible with the Holy Spirit as a teacher.

This past week I discovered a book that's pretty interesting and explains another method to read the Bible. While I don't agree with everything the author espouses, the main point is similar to how I experience the Holy Spirit and His teachings. It's a good and fun book.


Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally Paperback

by Marcus J. Borg (Author)

 

[jackstar7]

The whole point, which you either missed or decided for one reason or another to avoid discussing, is that there is no harm in believing things that aren't so as long as no one is harmed.

So which religions have done no harm? And how do you quantify harm?

 

[JEDIYoda]

So which religions have done no harm? And how do you quantify harm?

instead of asking questions where there can be so many answers...like a good Atheist why don`t you answer a few questions?
Such as the ones that you asked!

 

[jackstar7]

instead of asking questions where there can be so many answers...like a good Atheist why don`t you answer a few questions?
Such as the ones that you asked!

I didn't posit the statement that precipitated my questions.

Are there questions you'd like me to attempt to answer?


There's also the option that I'm a terrible atheist, rather than a good one.

 

[spittledip]

There's also the option that I'm a terrible atheist, rather than a good one.

Heh, true. Of course, that makes me curious even though you are just joking: what is a terrible atheist?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Religion is very geographic. All because you grew up in the middle of nowhere baptist/fundamentalist christian crazy-ville doesn't mean Roman Catholics have the same beliefs. Or Judaism, or Lutherans, etc.

Thats why the Atheists are so ignorant IMO. Not once have I ever seen a gay man turned away from a service or given a hard time in the Roman Catholic church. You can't just project your vitriol onto everyone who believes in god because you are angry about creationism being proposed at a school in some town with 400 people.

Yea, the catholic church is really known for their gay-friendly ways. They're totally open to change. Remember how this church acted in the past when it had real power? Before science made it back into a corner...





"In the morning, as Jesus was returning to Jerusalem, he was hungry, and he noticed a fig tree beside the road. He went over to see if there were any figs on it, but there were only leaves. Then he said to it, 'May you never bear fruit again!' And immediately the fig tree withered up. The disciples were amazed when they saw this and asked, 'How did the fig tree wither so quickly?' Then Jesus told them, 'I assure you, if you have faith and don't doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, 'May God lift you up and throw you into the sea,' and it will happen. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer" (Matthew 21:18-22, NLT).

This is old, but... It is almost like it doesn't do anything at all. :/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[dphantom]

Yea, the catholic church is really known for their gay-friendly ways. They're totally open to change. Remember how this church acted in the past when it had real power? Before science made it back into a corner...

My church is evangelical and accepts all who come to worship without question.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

"In the morning, as Jesus was returning to Jerusalem, he was hungry, and he noticed a fig tree beside the road. He went over to see if there were any figs on it, but there were only leaves. Then he said to it, 'May you never bear fruit again!' And immediately the fig tree withered up. The disciples were amazed when they saw this and asked, 'How did the fig tree wither so quickly?' Then Jesus told them, 'I assure you, if you have faith and don't doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, 'May God lift you up and throw you into the sea,' and it will happen. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer" (Matthew 21:18-22, NLT).

Not to be taken literally. Jesus is showing the power of prayer and faith in God. God is in charge and He answers all of the faithful's prayers to advance His plan for creation.

Why would a follower of Jesus be afraid of death? It is by far a lot better than living this life.

To live is Christ, to die is gain.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Yea, the catholic church is really known for their gay-friendly ways. They're totally open to change. Remember how this church acted in the past when it had real power? Before science made it back into a corner...

I have been in many Catholic Churches in the United States and every single one of them have openly welcomed gays into the church.

You seem to confuse through lack of knowledge or understanding the local Catholic Church with the outward teachings of the Vatican!

The Vatican still condemns homosexuality, yet the local Catholic Churches embrace gays as people worthy of God`s Love!

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Homosexuality is a sin. Lust is a sin. Lying is a sin. Laziness is a sin. A lot more of what we do are sins. The Law can only bring death. All are guilty in the eye of God. No one is innocent and we all deserve to go to Hell for sinning.

Humans are sinners. Therefore, we are not to judge others or condemn them because we think they are sinners.

It is wrong for a Christian to hate gays, transgender, atheists, Muslims, etc.

I don't like people because of their evil actions, but I do not hate.

I do not hate anyone because everyone is a sinner and need Jesus Christ for their salvation. I am also a sinner in need of salvation.

Christians are to forgive, no matter how hard it is to forgive.


That is what the Holy Spirit teaches me on judging others for sinning and the importance of forgiveness.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Sheesh, you go on vacation for a week and a thread doubles in size...

Easy. We now have a reason to exists, and aren't just pond scum. If the Bible is true (which I believe to be so), then we have a purpose behind our existence.

Allow me to re-state another of my questions, this time, as before, with emphasis:

HOW does it do that?

Like I indicated, I wasn't clear. So I am being clear. I am referring to Earth's conditions.

Which conditions are those, exactly? Do you even know?

I am speaking of the earth.

Then why didn't you say earth in the beginning?

More semantics.

Look, we need to nip this in the bud once and for all.

Insisting that you rigorously define the key terms of your arguments is not "semantics."

Suppose an argument took this form:

1.) If X does Y, then God does not exist.
2.) X does Y
3.) Therefore God does not exist.

When a person (rightfully) insists that the terms X and Y be rigorously defined, he is attacking the premises of the argument, not arguing "semantics."

If a person objected to the argument on the basis that it is only true that X did Y, but not necessarily true that X does Y, then he is arguing semantics.

Do you see the difference?

Let me say this. Life, as we currently know it, requires certain conditions. Those conditions are more appreciated when we see how barren space is, or the parts we've studied so far.

Now you've moved the goalposts from "life" to "life, as we currently know it." Isn't it obvious why I am so insistent that you define your terms? Why can't you be forthright about your own arguments? Is it usually a characteristic of truth that it must be presented in such shifty and disingenuous arguments?

I look at other lifeless planets, and draw the logical conclusion that if Mars is dead, then conditions for intelligent life don't exists there.

Now you're talking about "intelligent life" as distinct from simply "life."

I'll also point out that observing that our local planets appear devoid of terrestrial organisms in no way establishes that there aren't other "conditions for life," which was the challenge put to you.

Who said they should be? I said they aren't.

It is only remarkable that they aren't if there is some reason that they should be. Why is it remarkable that those planets appear lifeless? For that matter, how do you know that they are lifeless?

It's unique, so an explanation is warranted.

How do you know it's unique?

I'll assume from your outright refusal to address my responses at this point in my reply that you agree that when you said:

The conditions aren't different because life wouldn't have thrived under them.

and

We can see that much. These conditions support life, and why the are the way they are.

...you were just blathering nonsense.

You want evidence, but don't know what evidence you want.

I'll take any kind of evidence. You just haven't provided any. It isn't my job to support your claims.

I don't know "how".

Then it isn't an explanation. Meaningful explanations answer "how," not "who."

Do you know exactly how Bill Gates built Microsoft? Of course you don't.

Yet, that doesn't effect your acceptance that he built the company.

That isn't the question, and more importantly I know and can independently verify that Bill Gates exists.

Are you saying that it is unanswerable? On what evidence are you basing this on?

Why don't you answer the question instead of putting words in my mouth?

It reproduces vegetation, orbits the Sun, rains etc, without the need for human intervention...all on its own. You need this explained to you? You're in above your head.

So what is exactly being "sustained" here? Why is the absence of "human intervention" a criterion for being "sustained"? What would a "non-sustained" planet look like?

Exactly how did the planets form? And can you prove this?

Well, there are lots of ways that planets can form, but most commonly it appears to obey the Solar Nebular Model. This is just another distraction from you, however, because the point remains that there is nothing principally different about the ways that planets form -- particularly, they form according to natural, physical forces, not magical abracadabra hocus-pocus.

Sure they were. But we're unique, and our planet designed for life...obviously.

If the other planets were also "invented," then it is an invalid inference to reason that our planet's uniqueness among other planets is evidence that it is "invented".

All planets were. However, we are a special invention indicated by how we're distinguished from other planets that inhabit our solar system, and so far, the Universe.

If you can't tell what a "non-invented" planet looks like, then you have no valid basis to assert that any planet is invented. You're just arbitrarily declaring it. This is how I know you haven't the foggiest idea how evidence works.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

of course you just have. You do not believe.

I do not believe that the idea of god in your head is anywhere instantiated in reality. That is a rejection of your idea, not of any god.

You cannot get past the idea that man is the not ultimate.

You have no idea about my beliefs about man or any "ultimate." I don't even know what that would mean.

You have no faith there is something greater than you

I don't need faith. I know there are people of greater mass than me. I know that there are people of greater height than me. I know that there are (a few ) people of greater intelligence than me. The list goes on. What do I need faith for?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Since faith is a fundamental requirement to commune with God...

A rejection of the concept of faith is a rejection of God himself.

Ridiculous. I don't "reject God" any more than you "reject Thor." Don't you guys realize how silly this makes you appear?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Reposting a reponse of mine that got ignored....

The planet, plant and animal life, and how "distinguishable they are from the environment in which they exists", as you so eloquently put it.

Just to be clear, we can tell that "the planet, plant and animal life" is a "creation" because the environment in which they exist does not appear to be a "creation"?

The Universe not existing.

I think I need to restate the question with some emphasis:

Is there anything in the universe that is not evidence of God?

Wanna take another stab at it?

We simply wouldn't exists to examine it, or see what it "looks like".

How do you suppose that answers my question? Here, I'll repeat it: What would evidence that God does not exist look like?

I'm not asking about what would be the case if we did not exist. We do exist. If there were evidence which we could observe that indicated a God did not exist, what would it look like? Got any idea, whatsoever?

In other words, we exists because God exists.

Yes, Rob, we know your beliefs. What we want is some reason to believe that your beliefs have any correlation to reality.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

if you accept his divinity, there is nothing bizarre about the claims.

No kidding! If you assume X is true, then you don't have any trouble concluding that X is true!

You, sir, are an intellectual gargantuan.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Can God Kill the Innocent?[/SIZE][/FONT]

This is so deliciously amusing because the Christians making this defense are almost always ones to profess a rejection of moral relativism.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I don't need faith. I know there are people of greater mass than me. I know that there are people of greater height than me. I know that there are (a few ) people of greater intelligence than me. The list goes on. What do I need faith for?

That is the whole difference between the believer and the unbeliever......
The Christian definition of faith is found in Hebrews 11;1 -- Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

http://carm.org/christianity/sermons/hebrews-111-faith

Hebrews 11:1, Faith

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see," (Heb. 11:1).

Faith is an important word in the Bible. Faith is where the Promises and Work of God are made real to His redeemed.
Ephesians 2:8-9, We are saved by faith.
Rom. 1:17, We live by faith.
Rom. 4:13, We receive righteousness by faith.
Rom. 5:1, We are justified in Christ by faith
Rom. 5:2, We have access to God's grace by faith.
2 Cor. 1:24, We stand firm in our belief by faith.
Gal. 3:14, We receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.
1 Tim. 1:4, We do God's work by faith.
Gal. 5:5, We wait for the return of Christ by faith.
Indeed, faith is very important; it is vital to the Christian.
What is Faith?
According to Webster's Dictionary faith is "an unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence."
Though Webster's Dictionary says we don'tneed evidence to have faith, as Christians we do have evidence for our faith.
We have the Bible: 66 books, 40 authors, written in 3 languages, over 1600 years, prophecy, and moral and spiritual truth,
We have the resurrection of Jesus; confidence in His words, and evidence of God's truth in our lives.
The nearest definition we have in the Bible of what faith is is found right here in Hebrews 11:1
The NIV says, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
The KJV and the NKJV say, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
The RSV, NRSV and NASB each says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
Literally the Greek of Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the reality of things being hoped for, the proof of things not being seen."
But the English does not carry the full meaning of the verse. That is why it is good to examine several translations of the verse to try to get a better understanding.
An important point, though, is that faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed.
All the faith in the world in someone false won'thelp you.
But how does faith affect your lives?
You get in the car and drive on faith. You don'' know if you''re going to make it to your destination alive or not, but you go.
You have faith that the food you buy that is grown by strangers is not harmful, so you eat it.
You have faith that the doctors you see are competent. So you put yourself in their hands.
If you did not have faith, if you did not trust others you wouldn'tbe able to drive, eat, or get help in times of sickness. Your life would be very difficult.
Let's look at this chapter a bit and see how faith affected the people of God.
Hebrews 11:4 says, "By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead." (NIV)
We do not know many details of Abel's faith.
We do not know just how much was revealed to him.
But we do know that his faith caused him to worship God.
He picked the best of his flock to sacrifice to God. "and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, (Genesis 4:4, RSV).
He brought it to the place of sacrifice. It was natural for Abel's faith in God to manifest itself in a blood sacrifice, a sacrifice that pointed to the Messiah.
It was natural for Abel to worship.
There is something wrong with the Christian who does not worship.
Faith looks for opportunities to worship.
Faith made Enoch walk with God, v. 5
"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5, NIV).
In Genesis it says, "And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away" (Genesis 5:22-24).
Your walk will change if you continue to trust in Christ
2 Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (NIV).
Enoch pleased God. Is God pleased with you?
Is God pleased with the places you choose for recreation?
Is God pleased with the books you read? with what you watch on T.V.?
Is God pleased with the words you use? the conversations you have?
Is God pleased with the plans you''ve made for your future?
Enoch's walk of faith delivered him from death.
Your walk of faith has already delivered you from death, the death called damnation.
Your faith is in Jesus; therefore, there is no death to come to you.
Faith made Noah work for God, v. 7.
We have in Gen. 6, the tragic story of the decline of humanity into sin.
But God's grace triumphs: God saves Noah (v. 8).
In Noah, his faith manifested itself in real works. James 2:26 says, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
Noah built an ark because he believed in God
Every swing of his axe said, "faith."
Every felled tree said, "faith."
Every swing of his hammer said, "faith.:
Faith will make you work today
Faith is not something for long ago; for trusting in Jesus for salvation and not trusting Him for anything else. It means you trust Him for everything--even when it is difficult sometimes. It means that every day you continue to trust Him and that you continue to manifest the fruit of your faith.
Caring, sharing, witnessing, forgiving, helping, etc. In these things you please God.
Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (NIV).
Faith connects you to God; it is your admission that you are dependent upon Him; that your hope is in Him. It pleases Him, because it is Him you are trusting and no one and nothing else.
Much more could be said about this chapter. By faith Abraham, by faith Isaac, by faith Jacob, by faith Joseph, by faith Moses, by faith Rehab,
By faith: we understand the universe was formed; people offered sacrifices; humanity was saved; people left their lands and moved; blessings were given; people were freed; death was escaped; and walls fell; and verse 32 "And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets," (NIV).
Conclusion

Faith is vitally important in the life of the Christian. It is by faith that you are saved; you are justified; cleansed, and look forward to the return of Jesus. Faith is where you please God, admit your dependence upon Him, and continually seek to rely upon Him and His grace. I would like to close by asking you these question: "What has faith changed in your life? What are faith's evidences in your life? Is faith growing in your life.

 

[sandorski]

As pointed out often, we know what Faith is. The problem is that many Theists don't seem to quite grasp what Faith means, even after reading Hebrews.

 

[JEDIYoda]

As pointed out often, we know what Faith is. The problem is that many Theists don't seem to quite grasp what Faith means, even after reading Hebrews.

Not to sound as if I don`t care, but the only way to explain faith is what I posted.

No I do not believe you know what faith is!
It is my opinion that until you have used the same faith as Hebrews 11:1 describes you actually have no working knowledge of faith!

 

[sandorski]

Not to sound as if I don`t care, but the only way to explain faith is what I posted.

No I do not believe you know what faith is!
It is my opinion that until you have used the same faith as Hebrews 11:1 describes you actually have no working knowledge of faith!

The words are very clear, we all have Dictionaries. Regardless, I did practice that Faith at one time, I know what it is.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

This is so deliciously amusing because the Christians making this defense are almost always ones to profess a rejection of moral relativism.

What's amusing? Explain step by step and maybe you'll see your mistake.