A case for religion, and against AA.

[SlowSpyder]

Let me use christian reasoning here and cut through the mental 'which cup is the ball under' parlor games christians like to play.

The bible is quite clear on how powerful prayer is, here are a bunch of verses to refresh your memory: http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/prayer-bible-verses/

Now, christians pray for jesus to appear to us. I'll pray to the flying spahgettin monster that jesus doesn't appear.

There, I've proven the flying spaghetti monster is real.

 

[SlowSpyder]

another ridiculous question. why?

Because you need to have an understanding of both the old and New testament and how they compliment each other.....

It`s easy to pick and choose and take out of context what is being said......

But if you understand that during the old Testament times we were under the law and in New Testament times we are under what is called the Age of Grace....

But to an Atheist this is so far over your head...and for some they would call this ridiculous......or fairy tales....crap...etc....

You really need to stop asking questions and using proof that a Christian could accept without calling your so called proof baseless prove there is no God.....that all..a simple request.....

Do you consider the god you believe in to be just and caring? Even before the new testament?

 

[dphantom]

There are discrepancies, if those are not, then the word is meaningless.



Jesus, if he existed, died 2000 years ago, doesn't know any of us, never mind has an opinion of us.

No, they are differences in emphasis of the writer. Different writers took different viewpoints to tell the story. JY explained this very clearly to you. You simply will not acknowledge it. Just like you won't acknowledge that Jesus was an actual historical figure. Accepting His existence in history opens a door that will challenge the very core of your faith, your beliefs. So is a door you are attempting to hold tight against the acceptance of Jesus.

Jesus did exist, does exist, does know all of us and very much has an opinion of us.

 

[crashtestdummy]

No, they are differences in emphasis of the writer. Different writers took different viewpoints to tell the story. JY explained this very clearly to you. You simply will not acknowledge it. Just like you won't acknowledge that Jesus was an actual historical figure. Accepting His existence in history opens a door that will challenge the very core of your faith, your beliefs. So is a door you are attempting to hold tight against the acceptance of Jesus.

Jesus did exist, does exist, does know all of us and very much has an opinion of us.

Whether or not there are discrepancies in the gospels is really part of a much larger question: why is it that we view this particular set of sources as infallible, as opposed to any other? Why are the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Odyssey not treated with the same level of literalist adherence?

Let's, for the moment, treat the gospels as historical sources on the level of Herodotus, Josephus, Livy, or even Sima Qian. While in many cases, these authors are considered the "best account" of the times and events that they cover, we don't assume any of them aren't subject to personal bias, hearsay, or simple inaccuracy. If presented with physical evidence that appears to contradict those accounts, most people would value the physical evidence over the author's writing.

Why, then, are the gospels special in this regard? Saying "because it is the word of God" is not going to satisfy someone the least bit skeptical of its content.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Why Doesn't God Settle This?

You might be frustrated with God -- thinking that He should have made things clearer so it would be impossible to doubt. (For one possible explanation, please read this.)

Here are some interesting Scriptures concerning people not being able to believe unless God reveals Himself to them : Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 6:44, John 6:64-65.

Obviously, God does not reveal Himself to everyone in the same measure. Does that mean God is unfair? No. Just that He knows people's heart and how they will respond.

This is the part that made me give up on religion.

I can not believe in God unless He reveals himself to me, He will not reveal Himself to me unless I belive.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Switching gears a little back to the main topic of why people speak out against religion, and since it is black history month I thought I'd post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gzBMgD_ZOM

 

[dphantom]

This is the part that made me give up on religion.

I can not believe in God unless He reveals himself to me, He will not reveal Himself to me unless I belive.

That is putting yourself above God. God has nothing to prove to you. Your Faith in Him is all He asks.

 

[SMOGZINN]

That is putting yourself above God. God has nothing to prove to you. Your Faith in Him is all He asks.

Which by the quote given I can not have unless he gives it to me. I'm not saying I WILL not believe him, I'm saying that in the bible it says that I CAN NOT believe in him until he reveals himself to me.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Do you consider the god you believe in to be just and caring? Even before the new testament?

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-different.html

Question: "Why is God so different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament?"

Answer: At the very heart of this question lies a fundamental misunderstanding of what both the Old and New Testaments reveal about the nature of God. Another way of expressing this same basic thought is when people say, “The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love.” The fact that the Bible is God’s progressive revelation of Himself to us through historical events and through His relationship with people throughout history might contribute to misconceptions about what God is like in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament. However, when one reads both the Old and the New Testaments, it becomes evident that God is not different from one testament to another and that God’s wrath and His love are revealed in both testaments.

For example, throughout the Old Testament, God is declared to be a “compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,” (Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31; Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5, 15; 108:4; 145:8; Joel 2:13). Yet in the New Testament, God’s loving-kindness and mercy are manifested even more fully through the fact that “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Throughout the Old Testament, we also see God dealing with Israel the same way a loving father deals with a child. When they willfully sinned against Him and began to worship idols, God would punish them. Yet, each time He would deliver them once they had repented of their idolatry. This is much the same way God deals with Christians in the New Testament. For example, Hebrews 12:6 tells us that “the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”

In a similar way, throughout the Old Testament we see God’s judgment and wrath poured out on sin. Likewise, in the New Testament we see that the wrath of God is still “being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness” (Romans 1:18). So, clearly, God is no different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament. God by His very nature is immutable (unchanging). While we might see one aspect of His nature revealed in certain passages of Scripture more than other aspects, God Himself does not change.

As we read and study the Bible, it becomes clear that God is the same in the Old and New Testaments. Even though the Bible is 66 individual books written on two (or possibly three) continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years by more than 40 authors, it remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. In it we see how a loving, merciful, and just God deals with sinful men in all kinds of situations. Truly, the Bible is God’s love letter to mankind. God’s love for His creation, especially for mankind, is evident all through Scripture. Throughout the Bible we see God lovingly and mercifully calling people into a special relationship with Himself, not because they deserve it, but because He is a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth. Yet we also see a holy and righteous God who is the Judge of all those who disobey His Word and refuse to worship Him, turning instead to worship gods of their own creation (Romans chapter 1).

Because of God’s righteous and holy character, all sin—past, present, and future—must be judged. Yet God in His infinite love has provided a payment for sin and a way of reconciliation so that sinful man can escape His wrath. We see this wonderful truth in verses like 1 John 4:10: “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” In the Old Testament, God provided a sacrificial system whereby atonement could be made for sin. However, this sacrificial system was only temporary and merely looked forward to the coming of Jesus Christ who would die on the cross to make a complete substitutionary atonement for sin. The Savior who was promised in the Old Testament is fully revealed in the New Testament. Only envisioned in the Old Testament, the ultimate expression of God’s love, the sending of His Son Jesus Christ, is revealed in all its glory in the New Testament. Both the Old and the New Testaments were given “to make us wise unto salvation” (2 Timothy 3:15). When we study the Testaments closely, it is evident that God “does not change like shifting shadows” (James 1:17).

 

[JEDIYoda]

Which by the quote given I can not have unless he gives it to me. I'm not saying I WILL not believe him, I'm saying that in the bible it says that I CAN NOT believe in him until he reveals himself to me.

which is a matter of the heart.....you will know when God reveals himself to you!

Will it be a visible tangible thing that can be explained by science? Probably not and that's where faith enters into the picture...

Peace!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Switching gears a little back to the main topic of why people speak out against religion, and since it is black history month I thought I'd post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gzBMgD_ZOM

your video proves nothing...

http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/does-the-bible-promote-slavery/

A myth propped up by secular skeptics is that Scripture sanctions slavery. Nothing could be farther from the truth. First, it should be noted that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The New Testament goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Timothy 1:10).

Furthermore, slavery within the Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery. A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave (Exodus 22:3).

Finally, while the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it never promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America. Israel’s liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:26–28; Galatians 3:28).

 

[dphantom]

Which by the quote given I can not have unless he gives it to me. I'm not saying I WILL not believe him, I'm saying that in the bible it says that I CAN NOT believe in him until he reveals himself to me.

yet another example of an atheist taking a specific passage out of context. Finish the rest of the passage...


Matthew 11:26-28

New International Version (NIV)

26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

 

[SlowSpyder]

your video proves nothing...

http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/does-the-bible-promote-slavery/

A myth propped up by secular skeptics is that Scripture sanctions slavery. Nothing could be farther from the truth. First, it should be noted that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The New Testament goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Timothy 1:10).

Furthermore, slavery within the Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery. A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave (Exodus 22:3).

Finally, while the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it never promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America. Israel’s liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:26–28; Galatians 3:28).

The video had to do with the OP, not the current conversation. It isn't meant to prove or disprove anything. It simply points out that the bible clearly sanctions slavery and christians were a big part of that trade, at least in North America. In the old testament the big man himself says slavery is ok. In the new testament jesus had ample opportunity to speak out against slavery, but instead he tells slaves to obey there masters and the masters not to mistreat slaves. That's as far as he goes.

Can you show me passages where god/jesus state that slavery is evil and/or wrong? That it is a sin? Any where jesus/god state that slavery should not exist? Any that state that jesus/god put up with it for economic reasons? Because I can find passages that state that slaves should obey their masters, that it is ok to own slaves and even beat/kill them. It seems as long as the person isn't Jewish, god doesn't care too much about slavery.

Maybe if this thread is still going next month I can post some of the better passages from the bible that seem to be ok with rape, too.

 

[Retro Rob]

In the old testament the big man himself says slavery is ok.

So God said, as you quoted: "Slavery is ok"? Where?

 

[SMOGZINN]

yet another example of an atheist taking a specific passage out of context. Finish the rest of the passage...


Matthew 11:26-28

New International Version (NIV)

26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

Okay, read it all in context. It still says the same thing.

 

[dphantom]

Okay, read it all in context. It still says the same thing.

oh my gosh...really??? Verse 28 clearly is Jesus revealing Himself to all who come.

 

[SMOGZINN]

oh my gosh...really??? Verse 28 clearly is Jesus revealing Himself to all who come.

Verse 25 clearly states that is not true, that he has hid from the wise and prudent and only revealed himself to those that are like babes.

edit: In fact that is what the entire chapter is about, that Jesus has went to all the cities of the apostles, but not revealed himself.

 

[SlowSpyder]

So God said, as you quoted: "Slavery is ok"? Where?

I was summarizing. Surely with as much wiggle room as you give to the bible with all of its inaccuracies and contradictions, you're willing to give me some too.

Leviticus 25 39-46 would make it appear that god is pretty happy with slavery so long as it isn't an Israelite.

Exodus 21.

Ephesians 6 5 doesn't sound like it is speaking out against slavery. Kind of the opposite, actually. It tells slaves to obey.

Timothy 6 tells slaves to obey their masters, again.


Jesus/god speak out against sin throughout the bible, but yet no speaking out against slavery...

 

[Retro Rob]

I was summarizing. Surely with as much wiggle room as you give to the bible with all of its inaccuracies and contradictions, you're willing to give me some too.

Leviticus 25 39-46 would make it appear that god is pretty happy with slavery so long as it isn't an Israelite.

Exodus 21.

Ephesians 6 5 doesn't sound like it is speaking out against slavery. Kind of the opposite, actually. It tells slaves to obey.

Timothy 6 tells slaves to obey their masters, again.


Jesus/god speak out against sin throughout the bible, but yet no speaking out against slavery...

Yet the Bible survives as the most influential book known to man, the most distributed, translated, read, and appreciated.

The Koran doesn't even come close.

People have been attacking the Bible just like you are for centuries, and it only kept going. You cannot stop God, can't stop his word.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Yet the Bible survives as the most influential book known to man, the most distributed, translated, read, and appreciated.

The Koran doesn't even come close.

People have been attacking the Bible just like you are for centuries, and it only kept going. You cannot stop God, can't stop his word.

Posting scriptures is attacking the bible? The bible attacks itself, then.

It is a very influential book, I think more in years past than now, but still it has a very large impact on the lives of many people even today. No arguments here about that...

...but, that's great and all, but it really doesn't address the fact that the christian god would appear to be very much ok with slavery as evidenced by scripture.

Can you show me a passage where god/jesus state that slavery is a sin?

 

[sandorski]

Yet the Bible survives as the most influential book known to man, the most distributed, translated, read, and appreciated.

The Koran doesn't even come close.

People have been attacking the Bible just like you are for centuries, and it only kept going. You cannot stop God, can't stop his word.

Argumentum ad populem .

Right after he clearly showed the Bible's position on Slavery which disagreed with you.

Why can't you admit it?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Speaking of bible/christian influence, a video I saw a little while back that fits with this thread and why atheists speak out against religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_hKv4pEM4

 

[Retro Rob]

Argumentum ad populem .

Right after he clearly showed the Bible's position on Slavery which disagreed with you.

Why can't you admit it?

How? I didn't say the Bible is true because billions believe its true, I said it true because in part, it is simply a mircale how it was able to survive throughout the ages when even religion made it illegal to have Bibles, tried making translating it into anything but latin a jaliable offense, and more terrible acts to keep the Bible out of people's hands in order keep wielding control over them.

That's in and of itself is a strong self-testimony, in my opinion, judging only a religious book and not any other work. Sure there are very popular religious books, but they really pale when compared to the availablity of the Bible.

The God of the Bible said his name would be known.

So what about slavery?

I've abadoned those pointless arguments a very long time ago. He's going to believe is true, and so am I.

EDIT: I can just feel people frantically googling rebuttals. LOL

 

[sandorski]

How? I didn't say the Bible is true because billions believe its true, I said it true because in part, it is simply a mircale how it was able to survive throughout the ages when even religion made it illegal to have Bibles, tried making translating it into anything but latin a jaliable offense, and more terrible acts to keep the Bible out of people's hands in order keep wielding control over them.

That's in and of itself is a strong self-testimony, in my opinion, judging only a religious book and not any other work. Sure there are very popular religious books, but they really pale when compared to the availablity of the Bible.

The God of the Bible said his name would be known.

So what about slavery?

I've abadoned those pointless arguments a very long time ago. He's going to believe is true, and so am I.

EDIT: I can just feel people frantically googling rebuttals. LOL

Don't be dishonest, you implied it.

The Bible certainly was kept out of the hands of the common folk, but again you are being dishonest as it still was the core of Religious practice and belief. The Catholic Church merely used their position to control the population by ensuring a consistent interpretation of what was in the Bible. Even they understood the flaws and knew that widespread reading would lead to fracturing Christianity into many small pieces.

 

[SlowSpyder]

How? I didn't say the Bible is true because billions believe its true, I said it true because in part, it is simply a mircale how it was able to survive throughout the ages when even religion made it illegal to have Bibles, tried making translating it into anything but latin a jaliable offense, and more terrible acts to keep the Bible out of people's hands in order keep wielding control over them.

That's in and of itself is a strong self-testimony, in my opinion, judging only a religious book and not any other work. Sure there are very popular religious books, but they really pale when compared to the availablity of the Bible.

The God of the Bible said his name would be known.

So what about slavery?

I've abadoned those pointless arguments a very long time ago. He's going to believe is true, and so am I.

EDIT: I can just feel people frantically googling rebuttals. LOL

What is there to search for on Google? You just said that the bible is true to you because it is the leader of a popularity contest while again deflecting the whole slavery subject.

Tell me why it is a pointless argument too, please. The only reason I think it isn't brought up in church these days is because that doesn't fill the collection plate nearly as well as telling sheeple what they want to hear. I bet that up to fairly recent history scriptures in the bible regarding slavery were in fact a big part of christianity.