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A british perspective on American Gun ownership

HAL9000

Lifer
I find it very interesting discussing gun ownership with Americans on this forum. The notion seems somewhat alien to me and discussing it with people so enthused about the legality of private ownership has always interested me. I struggle to explain how people in the UK often view American gun ownership, and while this article isn't indicative of everyone in the UK's views on American gun ownership it certainly seems to represent the majority of people I have ever come into contact with or anyone I've seen talk extensively on the subject.

interested to know your thoughts.

It's a well written, well researched article from a good writer, published on one of my preferred newspapers' website

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter

American gun use is out of control. Shouldn't the world intervene?

Last week, Starbucks asked its American customers to please not bring their guns into the coffee shop. This is part of the company's concern about customer safety and follows a ban in the summer on smoking within 25 feet of a coffee shop entrance and an earlier ruling about scalding hot coffee. After the celebrated Liebeck v McDonald's case in 1994, involving a woman who suffered third-degree burns to her thighs, Starbucks complies with the Specialty Coffee Association of America's recommendation that drinks should be served at a maximum temperature of 82C.

Although it was brave of Howard Schultz, the company's chief executive, to go even this far in a country where people are better armed and only slightly less nervy than rebel fighters in Syria, we should note that dealing with the risks of scalding and secondary smoke came well before addressing the problem of people who go armed to buy a latte. There can be no weirder order of priorities on this planet.

That's America, we say, as news of the latest massacre breaks – last week it was the slaughter of 12 people by Aaron Alexis at Washington DC's navy yard – and move on. But what if we no longer thought of this as just a problem for America and, instead, viewed it as an international humanitarian crisis – a quasi civil war, if you like, that calls for outside intervention? As citizens of the world, perhaps we should demand an end to the unimaginable suffering of victims and their families – the maiming and killing of children – just as America does in every new civil conflict around the globe.

The annual toll from firearms in the US is running at 32,000 deaths and climbing, even though the general crime rate is on a downward path (it is 40% lower than in 1980). If this perennial slaughter doesn't qualify for intercession by the UN and all relevant NGOs, it is hard to know what does.

To absorb the scale of the mayhem, it's worth trying to guess the death toll of all the wars in American history since the War of Independence began in 1775, and follow that by estimating the number killed by firearms in the US since the day that Robert F. Kennedy was shot in 1968 by a .22 Iver-Johnson handgun, wielded by Sirhan Sirhan. The figures from Congressional Research Service, plus recent statistics from icasualties.org, tell us that from the first casualties in the battle of Lexington to recent operations in Afghanistan, the toll is 1,171,177. By contrast, the number killed by firearms, including suicides, since 1968, according to the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI, is 1,384,171.

That 212,994 more Americans lost their lives from firearms in the last 45 years than in all wars involving the US is a staggering fact, particularly when you place it in the context of the safety-conscious, "secondary smoke" obsessions that characterise so much of American life.

Everywhere you look in America, people are trying to make life safer. On roads, for example, there has been a huge effort in the past 50 years to enforce speed limits, crack down on drink/drug driving and build safety features into highways, as well as vehicles. The result is a steadily improving record; by 2015, forecasters predict that for first time road deaths will be fewer than those caused by firearms (32,036 to 32,929).

Plainly, there's no equivalent effort in the area of privately owned firearms. Indeed, most politicians do everything they can to make the country less safe. Recently, a Democrat senator from Arkansas named Mark Pryor ran a TV ad against the gun-control campaign funded by NY mayor Michael Bloomberg – one of the few politicians to stand up to the NRA lobby – explaining why he was against enhanced background checks on gun owners yet was committed to "finding real solutions to violence".

About their own safety, Americans often have an unusual ability to hold two utterly opposed ideas in their heads simultaneously. That can only explain the past decade in which the fear of terror has cost the country hundreds of billions of dollars in wars, surveillance and intelligence programmes and homeland security. Ten years after 9/11, homeland security spending doubled to $69bn . The total bill since the attacks is more than $649bn.

One more figure. There have been fewer than 20 terror-related deaths on American soil since 9/11 and about 364,000 deaths caused by privately owned firearms. If any European nation had such a record and persisted in addressing only the first figure, while ignoring the second, you can bet your last pound that the State Department would be warning against travel to that country and no American would set foot in it without body armour.

But no nation sees itself as outsiders do. Half the country is sane and rational while the other half simply doesn't grasp the inconsistencies and historic lunacy of its position, which springs from the second amendment right to keep and bear arms, and is derived from English common law and our 1689 Bill of Rights. We dispensed with these rights long ago, but American gun owners cleave to them with the tenacity that previous generations fought to continue slavery. Astonishingly, when owning a gun is not about ludicrous macho fantasy, it is mostly seen as a matter of personal safety, like the airbag in the new Ford pick-up or avoiding secondary smoke, despite conclusive evidence that people become less safe as gun ownership rises.

Last week, I happened to be in New York for the 9/11 anniversary: it occurs to me now that the city that suffered most dreadfully in the attacks and has the greatest reason for jumpiness is also among the places where you find most sense on the gun issue in America. New Yorkers understand that fear breeds peril and, regardless of tragedies such as Sandy Hook and the DC naval yard, the NRA, the gun manufacturers, conservative-inclined politicians and parts of the media will continue to advocate a right, which, at base, is as archaic as a witch trial.

Talking to American friends, I always sense a kind of despair that the gun lobby is too powerful to challenge and that nothing will ever change. The same resignation was evident in President Obama's rather lifeless reaction to the Washington shooting last week. There is absolutely nothing he can do, which underscores the fact that America is in a jam and that international pressure may be one way of reducing the slaughter over the next generation. This has reached the point where it has ceased to be a domestic issue. The world cannot stand idly by.

• This article was amended on 21 September 2013. The original mistakenly said that Edward Kennedy was shot in 1968. This has been corrected
 
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1. You know that this is a satire article, right? The author is attempting to use Syria as a parallel.

2. You do know why it is ironic that a Brit thinks they should say anything about the US Bill Of Rights, specifically about an amendment which involves helping citizens protect themselves against a tyrannical .gov? Correct?

3. You do know that it is a good thing for gun rights if foreigners attempt to drum up anti-2A sentiment, right? That unites gun owners and makes it even tougher for domestic politicians pass legislation.

4. You do know that this "article" includes suicides, which is to say that somehow none of the people would kill themselves if guns weren't invented?


"Well researched"? He tried to make a point about a Kennedy shooting and didn't even get the right Kennedy. His editor should be fired along with him. Also, the caption on the picture is most likely incorrect, it looks like a gun show. Your mainstream media appears to be as ignorant as ours if not worse.

You are a Subject, not a Citizen. I understand your confusion on the matter, but in reality pro-2A Americans welcome foreign input, because the backlash is always beneficial.
 
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I would support increased gun control if it would result in a reduction of gun violence. However, that's been proven ad nauseum to be untrue in the US.

This entire article is BS because it seems to say : restrictions on law-abiding gun owners = less gun violence, which is patently idiotic. Killings by legal firearms owners are less common than being killed by hammers.

Why does gun violence happen? Well if you examine the statistics, you quickly find out that the overwhelming majority of gun crime is perpetrated by non-legal owners in poor neighborhoods with little social, education, and economic opportunity. There is simultaneously a broken criminal justice system which spends ludicrous amounts of money prosecuting drug crimes and warehousing those people, which strains the overall system, meaning that someone with a history of violent crime is often free in a brief period of time. The majority of the time, someone who is convicted of a murder by firearm has a history of violent crime.

A more real-world fix for the US :

End the broken drug war, increase dramatically penalties for violent crime, increase education and rehabilitation opportunities in the most affected neighborhoods.

Your odds of being killed in a mass shooting event are about as likely as being struck by lightning. Your odds of being killed by a single shooter in a particularly rough neighborhood are stratospherically higher. Want to guess if all those citizens and criminals in the rough neighborhood will want to voluntarily hand in their guns if tougher gun legislation is passed? Hah. No chance.
 
Read this with a Brit accent the way a couple of gun-owning/US-living Brits I know would say it:

Right. Piss off then.
 
Ehh, quick question. Even if the UK, and a few other countries want to intervene, how would they go about accounting for (and possibly rounding up) the 300+ million firearms estimated to be in the US?

Of course, that's assuming that an intervention can even be realistically considered out as you'd need a lot of manpower to enforce new laws, and public support. Given the scale of the US (not counting Alaska as they'd probably secede in such an event), it would probably take the entire world to force an intervention onto the US.
 
Ehh, quick question. Even if the UK, and a few other countries want to intervene, how would they go about accounting for (and possibly rounding up) the 300+ million firearms estimated to be in the US?

Of course, that's assuming that an intervention can even be realistically considered out as you'd need a lot of manpower to enforce new laws, and public support. Given the scale of the US (not counting Alaska as they'd probably secede in such an event), it would probably take the entire world to force an intervention onto the US.

That is satire.
 
2. You do know why it is ironic that a Brit thinks they should say anything about the US Bill Of Rights, specifically about an amendment which involves helping citizens protect themselves against a tyrannical .gov? Correct?

This is about as ironic or relevant in today's society as this response to a Brit living in London talking about building regulations with regard to fire safety: "Wow, that's so funny, didn't you guys have a fire problem in 1666?".

In Western culture, the days of empire building and tyrannical governments are long gone. Talking about gun ownership in the context of protection against a tyrannical government just makes the speaker look like a paranoid maniac. In Brit terms it would be like talking about needing to get rid of our monarchy because they might try to seize power. It's just utterly absurd.
 
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In Brit terms it would be like talking about needing to get rid of our monarchy because they might try to seize power. It's just utterly absurd.

Yes, it's absurd. Try to seize power? They have already seized it, peasant!
 
Although the article pretty much discredits itself immediately by using the total figure including suicides it's probably worth noting the following:

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, 467,321 persons were victims of a crime committed with a firearm in 2011.

In the same year, data collected by the FBI show that firearms were used in 68 percent of murders, 41 percent of robbery offenses and 21 percent of aggravated assaults nationwide.

Most homicides in the United States are committed with firearms, especially handguns.

Numbers are decreasing though and not increasing which would have probably been a good idea to mention.
 
So OP, I guess you got your curiosity satisfied, but apparenty, not in the way you framed your query?

Attitudes differ, but did you also know that the folks that are first up to reply will invariably have a hair trigger big bang response to questions like yours and that they are...uhhhhh, VERY "ardent" supporters of their interpretation of the Second Amendment? 😉
 
What part exactly do people in the UK agree with? Going to the UN to take action in the US over its gun violence? As mentioned, most of the gun deaths are suicides. Many (not all) of these would be suicides without guns, so we can remove most of that figure. The rest of the gun deaths are damn near all gang banger types, and these are quite likely to happen with knives, so what do you have left, the UK wants to intervene for mass killings which happen 1-5 times/year? Sounds like a great idea!

Don't y'all still have a queen? How quaint and delightful. It seems you guys are in need of some good ole 'murican freedom and intervention yourselves.
 
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The opinion of idiots who've capitulated to political correctness and have given up their right to free speech does not carry a whole lot of weight.

That article is complete drivel, the usual garbage pushing the idea that removing arms from law abiding citizens will reduce crimes. Utterly stupid. Then they throw out total deaths from firearms numbers that include suicides, which of course is also completely stupid.

In summary, garbage article is garbage.
 
This is about as ironic or relevant in today's society as this response to a Brit living in London talking about building regulations with regard to fire safety: "Wow, that's so funny, didn't you guys have a fire problem in 1666?".

In Western culture, the days of empire building and tyrannical governments are long gone. Talking about gun ownership in the context of protection against a tyrannical government just makes the speaker look like a paranoid maniac. In Brit terms it would be like talking about needing to get rid of our monarchy because they might try to seize power. It's just utterly absurd.

Why do people always believe tyrannical governments are a thing of the past. We may not see a tyrant of the Greek definition, who rules with no constitution or law, but tyrants as defined by John Locke still exists: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right, which nobody can have a right to; and this is making use of the power any one has in his hands, not for the good of those who are under it, but for his own private, separate advantage.”

Remember the UK went along with a war in Iraq in which the context for war was completely fabricated, and the intelligence for that war was achieved via torture. Doesn't this sound tyrannical to you? Unfortunately we did nothing about it, but at least the UK has gotten wiser and won't be fooled again.
 
Why do people always believe tyrannical governments are a thing of the past. We may not see a tyrant of the Greek definition, who rules with no constitution or law, but tyrants as defined by John Locke still exists: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right, which nobody can have a right to; and this is making use of the power any one has in his hands, not for the good of those who are under it, but for his own private, separate advantage.”

Remember the UK went along with a war in Iraq in which the context for war was completely fabricated, and the intelligence for that war was achieved via torture. Doesn't this sound tyrannical to you? Unfortunately we did nothing about it, but at least the UK has gotten wiser and won't be fooled again.

Because they are heinously ignorant. The world remains full of tyrannical governments. I could swear there is even a civil war in one right now that keeps getting news. Statements like mikey's are the result of either excessive pride--the notion that people are inherently superior to how they used to be--or ignorance of even contemporary history.

What was nazi Germany if not a tyranny? Are we really to pretend the western world is immune from such so soon?
 
Because they are heinously ignorant. The world remains full of tyrannical governments. I could swear there is even a civil war in one right now that keeps getting news. Statements like mikey's are the result of either excessive pride--the notion that people are inherently superior to how they used to be--or ignorance of even contemporary history.

What was nazi Germany if not a tyranny? Are we really to pretend the western world is immune from such so soon?




There's a certain hilarity to his statements as well when we're looking at Syria and a people fighting against their tyrannical government. Even more hilarious when it's the USA arming those people with weapons to fight back.

I suppose they don't count though because he stated "western" nations. A thinly veiled bit of racism. See, "western" nations, ie, white nations, are evolved and above such petty civil war nonsense and above the petty tyrannical governments that all the rest of the world live under. (the brown world)
 
1. You know that this is a satire article, right? The author is attempting to use Syria as a parallel.

2. You do know why it is ironic that a Brit thinks they should say anything about the US Bill Of Rights, specifically about an amendment which involves helping citizens protect themselves against a tyrannical .gov? Correct?

3. You do know that it is a good thing for gun rights if foreigners attempt to drum up anti-2A sentiment, right? That unites gun owners and makes it even tougher for domestic politicians pass legislation.

4. You do know that this "article" includes suicides, which is to say that somehow none of the people would kill themselves if guns weren't invented?


"Well researched"? He tried to make a point about a Kennedy shooting and didn't even get the right Kennedy. His editor should be fired along with him. Also, the caption on the picture is most likely incorrect, it looks like a gun show. Your mainstream media appears to be as ignorant as ours if not worse.

You are a Subject, not a Citizen. I understand your confusion on the matter, but in reality pro-2A Americans welcome foreign input, because the backlash is always beneficial.

I'm not sure if you are very good at identifying satire. This article was not satiric.

Additionally, you might want to do some research on the relationship between gun ownership and suicide rates.
 
Well researched... but then poorly written. The bias in the article is enough that any attempt at fact is overridden by the bias.

In edition, Starbucks didn't ban firearms in their locations... They are simply making it policy to not allow OPEN CARRY. Concealed carry is still perfectly welcome at any starbucks in a jurisdiction that allows it.
 
EUlogic: Take away guns from people who want to obey the laws, thus leaving guns solely in the hands of criminals.

#chicago
 
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