A british perspective on American Gun ownership

[Pray To Jesus]

We have a gun problem in this country, its just a fact. No matter how people try to skew the numbers or break them down to support denial, the fact remains glaring clear, we have a gun problem.

Typical classy ignorance of issues. :thumbsdown: It's a fact for her posts.


BTW, its is not the same as it's.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

We have a gun problem in this country, its just a fact. No matter how people try to skew the numbers or break them down to support denial, the fact remains glaring clear, we have a gun problem.

Typical classy ignorance of issues. :thumbsdown: It's a fact for her posts.


BTW, its is not the same as it's.

 

[rudder]

Thirty two into nine is 28%

And there in lies the issue. The media and liberals lump suicides into the "guns are a serious issue" bag.

Take away all the guns from legitimate owners and the number of suicides by firearm will drop. It would also be a safe bet to say the number of gang related gun homicides would be pretty steady.

 

[fskimospy]

You mean like say access to mental health care?

Now which country do you think has greater access to mental health care: Norway or the US?:hmm:

/facepalm

You quoted a bunch of suicide rates by country, I provided methodologically sound, peer reviewed research into the topic. There's no contest.

I know you'll never admit to being wrong because...well... that's your MO. We can just leave it at the fact that you said something stupid and got called on it.

 

[classy]

See the numbers above. We don't have a gun problem. Given that the US suicide rate is comparable to countries such as the UK and Norway I think it is fair to discount gun deaths by suicide. Dead is dead.

Now the vast majority of the rest of gun deaths are gang related. So maybe we have a gang problem? But so long as the gang bangers are mostly taking each other out I don't see a real problem.

That is just deaths, not injuries. For everytime a gun is used in a correct manner, there are at least 6-7 other times it is not.

 

[classy]

Typical classy ignorance of issues. :thumbsdown: It's a fact for her posts.


BTW, its is not the same as it's.

Let me make this clear, I have no clue who you are. Never had any issues with whatsoever. So unless you got something to contribute concerning my post here, do that. But if all you got is some wild generalization about me, kma.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

We have a gun problem in this country, its just a fact. No matter how people try to skew the numbers or break them down to support denial, the fact remains glaring clear, we have a gun problem.

Typical classy ignorance of issues. :thumbsdown: It's a fact for her posts.


BTW, its is not the same as it's.

Let me make this clear, I have no clue who you are. Never had any issues with whatsoever. So unless you got something to contribute concerning my post here, do that. But if all you got is some wild generalization about me, kma.

I remember posters who are either clueless, stupid, or both.

If all you got is some wild generalization about guns, kma.

Classy's posting pattern in a nutshell:

I'm going to go ahead and say you're talking out of your @$$.

 

[z1ggy]

That is just deaths, not injuries. For everytime a gun is used in a correct manner, there are at least 6-7 other times it is not.

Had to quote this, sorry. Got a good laugh out of it.

So every time a person goes hunting, goes to a range... Uh.. Idk, cleans their gun, etc.. Theres 6-7 more times that somebody else uses it for crime? Since no stat could ever accurately predict or track that.. I'm going to go ahead and say you're talking out of your @$$.

 

[nehalem256]

/facepalm

You quoted a bunch of suicide rates by country, I provided methodologically sound, peer reviewed research into the topic. There's no contest.

I know you'll never admit to being wrong because...well... that's your MO. We can just leave it at the fact that you said something stupid and got called on it.

And yet if we were to believe that idea that gun ownership increases the risk of suicide countries like the UK and Norway should have a lower rate of suicide than the US.

I mean sure their could be confounding variables such as for example the previous "access to mental health care" or "income inequality". But oh wait both of those would once again favor the UK and Norway having a lower rate of suicide.

EDIT: Its called the scientific method. For a theory to be worth anything it has to have predictive value.

 

[fskimospy]

And yet if we were to believe that idea that gun ownership increases the risk of suicide countries like the UK and Norway should have a lower rate of suicide than the US.

I mean sure their could be confounding variables such as for example the previous "access to mental health care" or "income inequality". But oh wait both of those would once again favor the UK and Norway having a lower rate of suicide.

There are tons and tons of confounding variables, none of which are being taken into account. The study I quoted makes the most sense by far in terms of measuring the effect of gun prevalence on suicide rates as it all takes place within the same country.

If you think that gun availability has no link to suicide risk, please present a competently conducted study that says so. I'd love to read it. If you think quoting random numbers from other countries without actually conducting a competent analysis is a good counterpoint, you're just trying to find ways to ignore information that goes against your ideological beliefs.

 

[ralfy]

Related:

"The Secret History of Guns"

The Ku Klux Klan, Ronald Reagan, and, for most of its history, the NRA all worked to control guns. The Founding Fathers? They required gun ownership—and regulated it. And no group has more fiercely advocated the right to bear loaded weapons in public than the Black Panthers—the true pioneers of the modern pro-gun movement. In the battle over gun rights in America, both sides have distorted history and the law, and there’s no resolution in sight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/

 

[ralfy]

Also, about multiple factors:

"On Guns, America Stands Out"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/blow-on-guns-america-stands-out.html

 

[BlueWolf47]

There are tons and tons of confounding variables, none of which are being taken into account. The study I quoted makes the most sense by far in terms of measuring the effect of gun prevalence on suicide rates as it all takes place within the same country.

If you think that gun availability has no link to suicide risk, please present a competently conducted study that says so. I'd love to read it. If you think quoting random numbers from other countries without actually conducting a competent analysis is a good counterpoint, you're just trying to find ways to ignore information that goes against your ideological beliefs.

Why, it's so much easier to just claim all those studies are biased or inherently flawed.

 

[Juddog]

I would support increased gun control if it would result in a reduction of gun violence. However, that's been proven ad nauseum to be untrue in the US.

This entire article is BS because it seems to say : restrictions on law-abiding gun owners = less gun violence, which is patently idiotic. Killings by legal firearms owners are less common than being killed by hammers.

Why does gun violence happen? Well if you examine the statistics, you quickly find out that the overwhelming majority of gun crime is perpetrated by non-legal owners in poor neighborhoods with little social, education, and economic opportunity. There is simultaneously a broken criminal justice system which spends ludicrous amounts of money prosecuting drug crimes and warehousing those people, which strains the overall system, meaning that someone with a history of violent crime is often free in a brief period of time. The majority of the time, someone who is convicted of a murder by firearm has a history of violent crime.

A more real-world fix for the US :

End the broken drug war, increase dramatically penalties for violent crime, increase education and rehabilitation opportunities in the most affected neighborhoods.

Your odds of being killed in a mass shooting event are about as likely as being struck by lightning. Your odds of being killed by a single shooter in a particularly rough neighborhood are stratospherically higher. Want to guess if all those citizens and criminals in the rough neighborhood will want to voluntarily hand in their guns if tougher gun legislation is passed? Hah. No chance.

^^ This is the best post in this thread by far and spot-on. Ridding the jail system of people locked up because of the war on drugs will free up room to keep the actual violent criminals in.

 

[nehalem256]

There are tons and tons of confounding variables, none of which are being taken into account. The study I quoted makes the most sense by far in terms of measuring the effect of gun prevalence on suicide rates as it all takes place within the same country.

If you think that gun availability has no link to suicide risk, please present a competently conducted study that says so. I'd love to read it. If you think quoting random numbers from other countries without actually conducting a competent analysis is a good counterpoint, you're just trying to find ways to ignore information that goes against your ideological beliefs.

There are certain people who will react to life situations with suicide.

There are certain people who like to own guns.

Why is it such a surprise to think maybe there is significant overlap between these to groups.

Correlation does not equal causation. Which is the relevant question. If guns caused suicide then we would expect the UK and Norway to for example have a lower rate of suicide than Texas.

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

 

[fskimospy]

There are certain people who will react to life situations with suicide.

There are certain people who like to own guns.

Why is it such a surprise to think maybe there is significant overlap between these to groups.

Correlation does not equal causation. Which is the relevant question. If guns caused suicide then we would expect the UK and Norway to for example have a lower rate of suicide than Texas.

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

lol. The best part is that you have no idea how stupid what you just wrote is.

Read this and get back to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_analysis

 

[nehalem256]

lol. The best part is that you have no idea how stupid what you just wrote is.

Read this and get back to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_analysis

Please point out how that in any way contradicts what I said. for example straight from your linked article:

In restricted circumstances, regression analysis can be used to infer causal relationships between the independent and dependent variables. However this can lead to illusions or false relationships, so caution is advisable;[1] for example, correlation does not imply causation.

Wow, that looks like exactly what I said.

All your study shows is that people who own guns also commit suicide.

It doesn't show if owning a gun makes you commit suicide. Which would seem to be the relevant question based on the OP.

If gun ownership really caused you to commit then one would expect the UK to have a higher rate of suicide than the Gun Mecca of Texas. Especially given the obvious higher access to mental health care in the UK 😉

 

[fskimospy]

Please point out how that in any way contradicts what I said. for example straight from your linked article:


Wow, that looks like exactly what I said.

All your study shows is that people who own guns also commit suicide.

It doesn't show if owning a gun makes you commit suicide. Which would seem to be the relevant question based on the OP.

If gun ownership really caused you to commit then one would expect the UK to have a higher rate of suicide than the Gun Mecca of Texas. Especially given the obvious higher access to mental health care in the UK 😉

No, the question is not if a gun makes you commit suicide, the question is if greater ratios of gun ownership are associated with increased suicides. They are. You would only expect suicides to certainly be higher in Texas than in the UK if gun ownership were the only variable. Since it is not, we use regressions.

If you think my link supports your argument, you need to go read it again. I don't blame you for not understanding research design to begin with, but I do blame you for not learning once you've been told.

 

[moonbogg]

Wait a second. Aren't guns legal in the UK? I think they are. I found this answer somewhere. If guns are legal in the UK, why don't people get shot more often? I think its the lack of semi auto guns.

"As far as pistols are concerned, only air or historic weapons, ie muzzle loaders, are permitted, and they cannot be carried on the person other than in a secure container, eg from car to club range.

Rifles are under Firearms Certificate, and a certificate is not difficult to obtain if you're a shooting or hunt club member or have your own suitable land, or a right to shoot over suitable land, and don't have a serious criminal record - no violent offences, no imprisonment - or medical record of mental health problems.

Rifles have to be stored at home in an approved safe, with ammunition stored separately. Weapons have to be transported 'securely,' and cannot ordinarily be carried in a public place (there are a few exceptions in practice, such as where land being shot over is divided by a country road, and hunters have to cross.)

There are type restrictions, basically intended to prevent ownership of assault rifles, but there is no problem with any classic deer rifle or vintage military rifle such as a Lee-Enfield or Mauser.

Finally, only criminals see any need for concealed weapons here."

 

[classy]

Had to quote this, sorry. Got a good laugh out of it.

So every time a person goes hunting, goes to a range... Uh.. Idk, cleans their gun, etc.. Theres 6-7 more times that somebody else uses it for crime? Since no stat could ever accurately predict or track that.. I'm going to go ahead and say you're talking out of your @$$.

It is a FACT, a gun in a home will be 3-4 times more likely be used against a family member or friend, either through death or injury. Its also a high number of people who buy guns within a year or so before they commit suicide. It is completely asinine given all the numbers to think guns are not a huge part of the problem we have in this country given our culture of violence.

 

[classy]

Let me also add, this is not about the 2nd amendment or any of that. But it is clear that gun ownership clearly has reached the level of problems similar to when we dealt with smoking and drunk driving. Not enough is being done to prevent gun violence and we have too many stupid people who are not willing to see the elephant in the room.

 

[z1ggy]

It is a FACT, a gun in a home will be 3-4 times more likely be used against a family member or friend, either through death or injury. Its also a high number of people who buy guns within a year or so before they commit suicide. It is completely asinine given all the numbers to think guns are not a huge part of the problem we have in this country given our culture of violence.

Ahhh.. There you go! So you really do see that it's the culture here in America.. Not guns themselves. You were just too ignorant to realize it.

And btw, gun owners with half a brain lock there guns in a safe if they know family and friends will be coming into contact with them. So again.. Is that the guns "fault"?

 

[classy]

Ahhh.. There you go! So you really do see that it's the culture here in America.. Not guns themselves. You were just too ignorant to realize it.

And btw, gun owners with half a brain lock there guns in a safe if they know family and friends will be coming into contact with them. So again.. Is that the guns "fault"?

Huh? Ignorant? I brought up. You are apart of that culture I bet lock and step. I bet you loved the Sopranos and the like. Fact is you are more likely to shoot an innocent person than the drug dealer from 45th and MLK blvd in any major city. You are more likely to shoot your wife and kids as well than some criminal. Criminals have always been here and always will be. But its the "new breed" that is the ever growing problem.

 

[classy]

Let me put it like this, real killers will always kill. But what has happened has we have turned the average family man into a potential mass killer. I don't think we can ever save the ghetto from gun violence. But I think we can prevent many of the other tragedies that happen everyday. That's all I am saying.

 

[z1ggy]

Huh? Ignorant? I brought up. You are apart of that culture I bet lock and step. I bet you loved the Sopranos and the like. Fact is you are more likely to shoot an innocent person than the drug dealer from 45th and MLK blvd in any major city. You are more likely to shoot your wife and kids as well than some criminal. Criminals have always been here and always will be. But its the "new breed" that is the ever growing problem.

Riiiightttt.... I love how all your "facts" have been backed up with studies, statistics.. Hell even a survey or something.

You are just a victim of all the fear mongering the media and government has been feeding to uneducated people to force them to slowly give up rights.

The real "fact" here is a very small percentage of gun violence are mass murders. Do I think that if you eliminated ALL guns in this country, that it would reduce crime and death related to firearms? Sure I do. Will that ever happen? Not a chance.

So then the issue is you need to accept guns are not going to get banned/outlawed here. Not unless the government AND citizens work together to form a collective agreement. Which again, will likely not happen. The culture of violence and gun crime/death are outcomes of the ever growing gap in socio-economic status, lack of affordable health care and lack of education and parenting skills within the lower class among other things.

If you simply think taking guns away from law abiding citizens who wish to obtain them legally is going to greatly reduce crime and death.. then I unfortunately believe you are mistaken.