A british perspective on American Gun ownership

[nehalem256]

Rifles are hardly ever used in crimes, yet the big push is to ban...rifles...

Banning rifles also is not going to do much to reduce suicides for obvious reasons

 

[mikeymikec]

I'd say it's more recognition of reality that anything.

A government that admitted that it basically didn't have any decent ideas or solutions to fix a problem ought to be voted out, not the worst idea picked because of apathy.

This is a geographically huge country, many of us live in rural areas. There is simply way that police can respond in time to prevent crimes. It simply isn't possible.

Interesting point, but unless you're advocating strict gun control except in certain scenarios (which I'm sure you're not), you're simply picking non-average environments and scenarios to justify general gun-owning freedoms. It's as flawed a philosophy as creating rules based on the assumption that all of society is as unprincipled or stupid or delusional as the lowest common denominator in society.

And given recent examples of where police do arrive in time (shooting an innocent person for example) I'm not sure I'd want them.

That sounds like you're pro guns but against the police having firearms. This isn't logical. I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

 

[OCGuy]

A government that admitted that it basically didn't have any decent ideas or solutions to fix a problem ought to be voted out, not the worst idea picked because of apathy.

Please, continue to lecture Americans on how government should work. It is quite amusing.

It is almost as if the first thing a newborn English subject does is suck the Queen's teat, and they don't ever really stop.

 

[fskimospy]

So then why do the UK and Norway have an essentially equal suicide rate?

Why don't you read the study, they went through all the trouble of writing it and all.

Or of course you could just realize that you were wrong and admit it. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Murloc]

Is it? What use would one have for a handgun if it isn't for self-defence? The only reason I can think of would be if one wished to use one at a gun club, and I can't think of a good reason why not, but that's about the only reason I can think of against the law.

Firearms aren't banned in the UK completely, you just need a good reason and a licence for one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom


I don't see that listed here:
https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife

well I heard of people getting asked documents just to buy a kitchen knife.
I guess the <18 ban is the reason of that, as if minors are more likely to stab people than 18-21 young adults.... also even in prison which is arguably the most controlled place they build prison shanks out of tooth brushes, so the minors can do the same, or use a screwdriver.

Collecting and sports use are reason enough to not allow a ban on pistols in my opinion.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Why don't you read the study, they went through all the trouble of writing it and all.

Or of course you could just realize that you were wrong and admit it. I won't hold my breath.

Did they now? Searching a non-PDF version, 'Europe', 'United Kingdom', 'England', 'Britain', etc don't appear anywhere, and in the discussion they clearly admit that their study cannot be extrapolated to other regions...

Case–control studies offer many advantages over geographic comparisons and time-series designs, but they are prone to potential sources of bias.31 We minimized selection bias by including all victims of suicide in the home as eligible case subjects and by using an explicit protocol for the random selection of matched controls. High response rates for both case proxies and controls (80 percent) limited any potential nonresponse bias. To minimize differential recall between case proxies and controls, we delayed our interview to allow for the initial grief process and selected relatively objective variables for our final regression analysis.

...

Three additional limitations warrant comment. This study addresses only suicides in the home and does not examine the relation between the availability of firearms and suicides out of the home. However, during the study period the proportion of out-of-home suicides involving firearms in each county exceeded the prevalence of gun ownership in the respective control group. Second, our research was conducted in two metropolitan counties with relatively small rural populations. Therefore, our conclusions may not be generalizable to rural communities.

 

[exdeath]

The Brits are still sore they didn't get our guns the first time.

 

[fskimospy]

Did they now? Searching a non-PDF version, 'Europe', 'United Kingdom', 'England', 'Britain', etc don't appear anywhere, and in the discussion they clearly admit that their study cannot be extrapolated to other regions...

/facepalm

This thread is about gun control in America. Nehalem (as usual) posted a poorly thought out rebuttal to my statement that there was a link between gun ownership and suicide by posting statistics from other countries that clearly had not controlled for other risk factors. When I post a peer reviewed, methodologically sound study on the link between gun ownership and suicide, you want to know why I am not addressing his original ignorant and tangential counterpoint.

This place sometimes.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

/facepalm

This thread is about gun control in America. Nehalem (as usual) posted a poorly thought out rebuttal to my statement that there was a link between gun ownership and suicide by posting statistics from other countries that clearly had not controlled for other risk factors. When I post a peer reviewed, methodologically sound study on the link between gun ownership and suicide, you want to know why I am not addressing his original ignorant and tangential counterpoint.

This place sometimes.

This thread was created by a proud Briton wondering why the USA does not follow the footsteps of his country and other Euros. That alone makes the discussion of other countries and their respective gun policies relevant. When you demonstrate a correlation between gun availability within a home and suicide, it tells that guns may make suicide more convenient, sure. However, when you simply say "you might want to do some research on the relationship between gun ownership and suicide rates" in response to OCGuy's statement that the suicidal will seek out other means when guns aren't available, it is perfectly relevant to the discussion to mention the suicide rates of nations where guns aren't a factor.

 

[rudder]

To be fair, the numbers I've seen are closer to ~10% of firearm homicides being due to gang activity. Doesn't matter though since preventing one person from defending himself is a worse consequence than ten people killed thanks to availability of firearms.

Rough numbers here... 32,000 gun deaths per year. Subtract 21,000 suicides and 1,000 accidental deaths. Of the remainder about 9000 gun deaths are gang related. Like I said... rough numbers but a hell of a lot more that 10%.

 

[Fayd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

US 12.0
Norway 11.9
UK 11.8

Pretty strong?:hmm:

in disarmed japan, 21.7.

I can't see a link between suicide and firearms, but I can see that the US isn't doing too badly in the suicide department.

 

[Cr0nJ0b]

I have to say that you all are missing the real enemy in the UK. It's rope and bag violence. at least 2,400 people died last year due to violence related to rope and bag injury resulting in suffocation and death. It's a sad statement that the government of UK can't stop this epidemic.

and by the way...that's just from suicides (the top method used in the UK 51%). I'm sure if they look into all of the other incidents of rope and bag violence that they would see how bad things really are. We need more laws to protect the people from these crimes!

 

[xj0hnx]

Not even bothering to read the OP, Americans don't give a fuck what you think, go play in traffic.

 

[Angry Irishman]

The last time the British decided to formulate a perspective on Americans gun ownership a war commenced at the North Bridge in Concord Massachusetts.

Take a moment to worry about your empires problems, go have some crumpets and a spot of tea and Bob's your uncle. Pip Pip Cheerio......

 

[woolfe9998]

I don't mind reading foreign perspective on US problems. However, the problem with gun violence in America is undoubtedly multi-causal.

Particularly given the past successes of our firearms industry (aka the gun lobbies), and a general lack of public support for gun control, there are too many guns already in circulation such that any criminal who wants one could find it even if we suddenly toughened up our gun laws.

As has already been pointed out, the relationship between availability of firearms and homicide is questionable. Regarding suicide rates, assuming, arguendo,that free availability of guns increases the frequency of suicide somewhat, I find this to be an insufficient justification for gun control. Suicide is a choice, and is fundamentally different from homicide for that reason. I'm aware that many people commit suicide on impulse and might make a different choice given the opportunity to cool off, perhaps if a quick and painless method like firearms was not readily available. Yet the suicide rate in the US isn't abnormally high anyway. It isn't exactly an epidemic here. Furthermore, I think taking one's own life when terminally ill is wholly rational, and I for one would want to have firearms as an available option because other choices are quite a bit scarier and more painful, or are less likely to succeed (pills).

Given that violence is multi-causal, we should look to addressing other causes. We can start by ending or at lest toning down this war on drugs. We can also attempt to improve education, particularly in inner cities and other areas with high rates of violence.

 

[AdamantC]

in disarmed japan, 21.7.

I can't see a link between suicide and firearms, but I can see that the US isn't doing too badly in the suicide department.

Don't forget the US has a population of 316 million compared to Japan's 126 million or the UK's 63 million.

Also I like how no one has mentioned the fact the Brits, while they may not be shooting each other, are certainly stabbing each other.

 

[BlueWolf47]

Don't forget the US has a population of 316 million comare Japan's 126 million or the UK's 63 million.

Also I like how no one has mentioned the fact the Brits, while they may not be shooting each other, are certainly stabbing each other.

Thats why they use rate per 100,000 people not the total. Im going to assume you know what the difference is.

 

[fskimospy]

This thread was created by a proud Briton wondering why the USA does not follow the footsteps of his country and other Euros. That alone makes the discussion of other countries and their respective gun policies relevant. When you demonstrate a correlation between gun availability within a home and suicide, it tells that guns may make suicide more convenient, sure. However, when you simply say "you might want to do some research on the relationship between gun ownership and suicide rates" in response to OCGuy's statement that the suicidal will seek out other means when guns aren't available, it is perfectly relevant to the discussion to mention the suicide rates of nations where guns aren't a factor.

Not without controlling for other suicide risk factors. And no, the fact that someone is from another country does not make stating that country's suicide rate any more relevant. As with gun homicide, suicides have many risk factors involved. To simply look at a country's suicide rate vs gun ownership is a stupid way to do it, which of course is why we have research into the topic like I presented.

If you would like to present some other actual research that disputes the link between gun prevalence and suicide I am all ears. Until then, what is the point?

The lengths people will go to in order to ignore information they don't want to hear is impressive sometimes.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Don't forget the US has a population of 316 million compared to Japan's 126 million or the UK's 63 million.

Also I like how no one has mentioned the fact the Brits, while they may not be shooting each other, are certainly stabbing each other.

Britain is stabbing her own people.

 

[Scotteq]

Rough numbers here... 32,000 gun deaths per year. Subtract 21,000 suicides and 1,000 accidental deaths. Of the remainder about 9000 gun deaths are gang related. Like I said... rough numbers but a hell of a lot more that 10%.

Thirty two into nine is 28%

 

[classy]

We have a gun problem in this country, its just a fact. No matter how people try to skew the numbers or break them down to support denial, the fact remains glaring clear, we have a gun problem.

 

[z1ggy]

We have a gun problem in this country, its just a fact. No matter how people try to skew the numbers or break them down to support denial, the fact remains glaring clear, we have a gun problem.

To suggest we have a "gun problem" would seem to indicate you think the guns cause the crime. Ie, if you said in relation to your home that "we have a termite problem" I would have to assume you are blaming the termites for the problems being caused within the home.

The statement I quoted above really shows how some people lack a clear understanding of the problem at hand.

 

[exdeath]

We have a violence problem in this country, its just a fact. No matter how people try to skew the numbers or break them down to support denial, the fact remains glaring clear, we have a violence problem.

FTFY and agreed.

 

[nehalem256]

Not without controlling for other suicide risk factors. And no, the fact that someone is from another country does not make stating that country's suicide rate any more relevant. As with gun homicide, suicides have many risk factors involved. To simply look at a country's suicide rate vs gun ownership is a stupid way to do it, which of course is why we have research into the topic like I presented.

If you would like to present some other actual research that disputes the link between gun prevalence and suicide I am all ears. Until then, what is the point?

The lengths people will go to in order to ignore information they don't want to hear is impressive sometimes.

You mean like say access to mental health care?

Now which country do you think has greater access to mental health care: Norway or the US?:hmm:

 

[nehalem256]

Rough numbers here... 32,000 gun deaths per year. Subtract 21,000 suicides and 1,000 accidental deaths. Of the remainder about 9000 gun deaths are gang related. Like I said... rough numbers but a hell of a lot more that 10%.

We have a gun problem in this country, its just a fact. No matter how people try to skew the numbers or break them down to support denial, the fact remains glaring clear, we have a gun problem.

See the numbers above. We don't have a gun problem. Given that the US suicide rate is comparable to countries such as the UK and Norway I think it is fair to discount gun deaths by suicide. Dead is dead.

Now the vast majority of the rest of gun deaths are gang related. So maybe we have a gang problem? But so long as the gang bangers are mostly taking each other out I don't see a real problem.