7900gt ko...x1800xt... which one?

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
There should be no difference whatsoever if the screenshot was generated using the Image Quality button in 3dmark (perhaps the IQ shots that get generated during a benchmarking run use a different frame. I admit I assumed the guy generated the screenshot correctly). I fail to see what your interest in all this is anyway cainam, since you own an ATi card. It seems to me you are just a sh!t-stirring fanATIc in this thread...

how hard is it to comprehend you're comparing 2 different scenes (one the light is directed at the tank, causing it to be illiminated, the other the light is away from the tank, so there is no illumination on the tank)?

my interest? well, it's two-fold. first is the perpetuation of misinformation. people should not be mislead, period.

second, i also run an nvidia card. it's not about supporting either nvidia or ati, but about supporting the facts.

Who's misleading? I used the IQ tool in 3dmark, without altering the frame it renders by default on any test. It's not my fault the comarison shot wasn't done with the IQ tool, but by some other method. I admit I didn't verify the two images were the same frame at the time.

yet you used it as "proof" to back up your claim of "improved IQ" (even mocking me as if you couldn't be proven wrong).

then further tossing me in as a "sh!t-stirring fanATIc", questioning why i am even participating in this thread, when i can at least state i have both a g70 and r520 - of which you have neither. hmm...

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
You'll have to wait awhile for screenshots - some of us have to work to earn a living.

meaning what? i don't? perhaps you simply talk big and have difficulties backing it up.. or you just can't manage time as well as those of us that work as well...

 

[BFG10K]

You can use any of the 4 SSAA mode - I used 4x4

That's rather interesting given 4x4 limits both resolution dimensions to 1024 or lower (nHancer backs this claim) yet I noticed your 3DMark06 images were done at 1280x960, the very same images you claimed HDR+ 4x4 AA was working in.

Is this another clueless oversight on your part or another blatant lie, Gstanfor?

And for the record neither 4x4 or 2x2 forced into Serious Sam 2 worked until I disabled HDR in the game so again I'd have to say you're either clueless or you're lying.

So lets see some AA screenshots when HDR is running, the kind of AA that only seems to exist in your little world.

ATi cards prior to R5xx can ONLY perform SSAA when crossfire AA is enabled.

This is totally and utterly false. Hell even before AAA was around Humus had forced SSAA into Direct3D applications when using alpha textures.

AAA is simply a driver level switch to enable SSAA when it detects alpha textures and it just happenes to be enabled by default on R5xx cards but not on earlier cards.

(I'm not even sure Transparency AA can use SSAA on R5xx).

You're not sure because you're clueless yet you continue to spread lies.

Click.

Enabling transparent textures on the FSAA sample application shows the same number of texture samples as geometry samples in each mode of FSAA. With Adaptive AA ("AAA") enabled the scene will have normal Multi-Sampling enabled on opaque textures, resulting in geometry anti-aliasing as normal, but where transparent textures are enabled the driver detects them and automatically issues multiple draw calls to Super-Sample the texture, resulting in Anti-Aliasing of transparent textures.

You can also see SSAA is clearly being used in the AA tester images on that page and once you enable AAA on R3xx and R4xx cards you'll find they behave in exactly the same way as R5xx cards.

16xAA combined mode can't be used at 1600x1200 for instance on 256mb cards, notbecause of performance but because of framebuffer storage requirements

Rubbish - I run it at 1920x1440 on my 256 MB 7800GT in many games.

 

[Gstanfor]

Screenshots will be forthcoming soon (converting to jpeg then uploading atm), oh Ye of Little Faith... 20 of them, from farcry... I set the supersampling in nHancer to 2x2 because of the performance hit for these shots, even then it felt like I was playing farcry on a 5700LE...

And cainam, while I'm pretty much surrounded by computers at work, I hardly ever get to play on them, they are for our clients, not us, and obviously I don't have my personal system at work...

BFG10K, you are getting 8xS at 1920x1440, not 16xS...

 

[Gstanfor]

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
81
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

Here you go.

Note that Ordered Grid sampling (what SSAA performs) isn't quite as nice as Rotated Grid sampling (what MSAA performs). Lets hope nVIDIA gets around to imlimenting OG sampling for SSAA as well as MSAA eventually.

 

[BFG10K]

I set the supersampling in nHancer to 2x2 because of the performance hit for these shots

:roll:

You mean because 4x4 doesn't even operate at 1280x960.

BFG10K, you are getting 8xS at 1920x1440, not 16xS...

Sorry, the performance hit and IQ difference between the two AA modes disagree.

An appetizer...

Where's the comparison shot at the identical spot without AA?

 

[Gstanfor]

Where's the comparison shot at the identical spot without AA?

You can damn well provide it for yourself!

 

[BFG10K]

You can damn well provide it for yourself!

You make claims but you can't back them up as usual, but that's because your claims are nothing more than big steaming piles.

Your credibility is zero right now and still dropping rapidly, and as far as I'm concerned anything you post about nVidia or ATi is a clueless lie.

But just to demonstrate what a liar you are here are Far Cry images at 2x2 AA with and without HDR:

Far Cry HDR.

Far Cry Normal.

With HDR enabled there is visible aliasing around the top of the green box below the gun crosshair and also on the metal rack to the right of it.

Disabling HDR allows the 2x2 AA to operate and you can see those edges are visibly smoother.

 

[josh6079]

Gstandfor, thankyou for posting pics of what we wanted you to post. Had you not lied so much throughout the thread, maybe I would be quicker to think that they are actually your pics. Truth is, you could have easily gotten them from somewhere where an ATI card produced them, and due to BFG 10K's-he has an Nvidia card and knows what both ATI and Nvidia are capable of right now-credibility, I tend to believe his screen shots more than yours. I'll try it myself here sometime (gee, I have to work too) and see for sure.

It would have been nice to know from you a bit earlier that your claim of 4x4 supersampling would not work for your specs when you claimed it did. (Thanks BFG10k).

As for the screen shots:

I set the supersampling in nHancer to 2x2 because of the performance hit for these shots

What performance hit? Go ahead and use your supposed 4x4 supersampling because performance hits don't matter in screen shots. All we're going to be looking at is a frame, doesn't matter if your getting 1 frame per second, that's good enough for a pic.

 

[thilanliyan]

So has this HDR + SSAA on NVidia cards been proven?? debunked?? Anyone with a very good technical understanding wanna take a shot at this?? Pete??

I'd really like to see if this true. So far BFG10K has given screenshots and they don't seem to have AA in the HDR screenie.

 

[5150Joker]

FRAPs is the best way to prove it.

 

[BFG10K]

So has this HDR + SSAA on NVidia cards been proven?? debunked??

It's been totally debunked: neither Far Cry nor Serious Sam 2 work with pure super-sampling forced and both games use FP HDR.

I suspect Gstanfor thinks SSAA is working because he's seeing a performance hit when he enables it; of course anyone with even a basic understanding of HDR rendering can explain why there's a performance hit but no actual AA.

That and all of the lies and misinformation he's spread in this thread alone gives him less than zero credibility with the issue.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The screen shots doesnt have much if any jaggies at all

Gstanfor, can you create a new thread about this. Im interested in it.
Maybe comparisons of HDR, HDR plus SSAA, No HDR shots would be nice.

 

[BFG10K]

There is no reference point for a comparison and even with the small size of the images which masks the jagged edges, I can still see some in all of his screenshots.

If he's really running AA then he should have absolutely no trouble taking two HDR screenshots in identical places, one with AA and one without and highlight the differences in aliasing between the two.

Of course he doesn't do this because he's not actually running AA and therefore his "comparison" screenshots would look identical.

It's exactly the same tactic he tried with his 3DMark06 images - put up some screenshots that totally fail to back his claims and then dodge the issue for the remainder of the discussion.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
It's exactly the same tactic he tried with his 3DMark06 images - put up some screenshots that totally fail to back his claims and then dodge the issue for the remainder of the discussion.

which, i think we can safely say, is pretty much over

 

[Gstanfor]

I said the IQ in the 87.xx series was good and I posted screenshots showing the IQ. I said SSAA can be forced and showed that as well. If people are interested in comparison shots then they can create their own. I'm not about to install older drivers on my system just to please a pack of fanATIcs - I've better things to do with my time, thanks.

If you don't wish to believe me don't - I don't give a rat's arse if you do or don't. And, yes, so far as I'm concerned this the end of the discussion. Now the fanATIcs can go pat themselves on the back - they have managed to completely derail this thread with their nonsense, and have people thinking about other things rather than if a 512mb (or 256mb) 7900 Gt would be a better buy than one of their precious Radeons.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I said the IQ in the 87.xx series was good and I posted screenshots showing the IQ. I said SSAA can be forced and showed that as well. If people are interested in comparison shots then they can create their own. I'm not about to install older drivers on my system just to please a pack of fanATIcs - I've better things to do with my time, thanks.

If you don't wish to believe me don't - I don't give a rat's arse if you do or don't. And, yes, so far as I'm concerned this the end of the discussion. Now the fanATIcs can go pat themselves on the back - they have managed to completely derail this thread with their nonsense, and have people thinking about other things rather than if a 512mb (or 256mb) 7900 Gt would be a better buy than one of their precious Radeons.

I take this as a way of tucking your tail between your legs and running when pressed for hard evidence - why am I not surprised?

 

[dagabs]

The Lord said:

" There is another way, a way where one can have HDR and AA in one, but in an Nvidia graphics card"

The poor man asked:

"How can that be possible my Lord, please show us the way."

The Lord said:

"You must believe, you must have faith, my child"

And the Lord went back on his Donkey and road away to the sunset...

The poor man questioned in silence......




"wtf???"

I apoligize in advance if Ive offended anybody. Peace.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: dagabs
The Lord said:

" There is another way, a way where one can have HDR and AA in one, but in an Nvidia graphics card"

The poor man asked:

"How can that be possible my Lord, please show us the way."

The Lord said:

"You must believe, you must have faith, my child"

And the Lord went back on his Donkey and road away to the sunset...

The poor man questioned in silence......




"wtf???"

I apoligize in advance if Ive offended anybody. Peace.

Hahaha, blind faith...I myself like hard evidence. Seriously if I had a Geforce 6/7 series card I'd try it myself, but I dont. I may be able to try on a friend's card. I'll post it if I get a chance to do it.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I said the IQ in the 87.xx series was good and I posted screenshots showing the IQ. I said SSAA can be forced and showed that as well. If people are interested in comparison shots then they can create their own. I'm not about to install older drivers on my system just to please a pack of fanATIcs - I've better things to do with my time, thanks.

If you don't wish to believe me don't - I don't give a rat's arse if you do or don't. And, yes, so far as I'm concerned this the end of the discussion. Now the fanATIcs can go pat themselves on the back - they have managed to completely derail this thread with their nonsense, and have people thinking about other things rather than if a 512mb (or 256mb) 7900 Gt would be a better buy than one of their precious Radeons.

Once again you really don't look into things. BFG10K is hardly a fanATIc. He simply understands the differences between the two cards. I seriously can't understand why your using the fanATIc scapegoat when being confronted for truth. We ask for screen shots of AA+HDR of which you supposedly already posted. Why would you need different dirvers to show us some different screenshots of which you've already made? Since you can enable/disable HDR from the console in FC, stand inplace without it and with your precious AA, then type the command in from the console for HDR, not moving your stance, and take another screenshot. That, or you could make a fraps recording of you doing this and we'll just hold our tounges when we see the performance hit in the video. You are only on a 6800 granted. But you probably wont do any of this because it wouldn't back your false claims. Frankly, you haven't provided a single peice of evidence that fell in line with your claims. Instead, you provided fragmented, disconnected information just so you could try and say, "See, I showed evidence! I SHOWED evidence!" when really all you probably did was show someone elses screenshots from an ATI board. It wouldn't surprise me with your credibilty.

 

[thilanliyan]

Well, I was able to try out GStanfor's theory on my friend's 6800 with FarCry.

Used the 87.25 driver(as was suggested by GStanfor) and nHancer to set the profile.
HDR worked fine... But forcing SSAA(2x2 or 4x4) or MSAA with HDR on didn't do anything to the IQ.

In fact, forcing SSAA even without HDR didn't do anything to the IQ but forcing MSAA without HDR did change the IQ.

People with Geforce 6/7 series cards try this out for yourselves...I'm sure you guys wanna find the truth for yourself.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: BFG10K
It's exactly the same tactic he tried with his 3DMark06 images - put up some screenshots that totally fail to back his claims and then dodge the issue for the remainder of the discussion.

which, i think we can safely say, is pretty much over