7900 cards are scarce because it's outselling its ATI competitor by a ratio of 4:1

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5150Joker

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2002
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www.techinferno.com
Originally posted by: openwheelformula1
because the G70 is more overclockable due to it's higher efficiency. Those simple volt-mod techniques are a plus as well. Let's face it 7600 and 7900 series are simply better for the price than ATI's counter parts.


Huh? ATi has software based voltage modifcation and doesn't require the "simple" conductive pen mess that GT's need. As for overclocking, you might want to look here: http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=440151&page=1&pp=30
Every single one of those overclocks was done without any sort of hardware voltmage mod. You could only dream to do the same with a G71.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
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Well, of course the 7900's are outselling the X1900's. Have you seen the prices for those X1900's - they'll make you shiver with terror.
 

imported_Crusader

Senior member
Feb 12, 2006
899
0
0
lol.. the few extremely verbal ATI fans here just cant stand the fact that people want quality Geforce boards that run cool and quiet :thumbsup: or AMDs best platform, the Nforce.. the stuff just works right and people dont want to mess with dongles, unproven motherboards, or loud cards that require far more juice than performance advantage they output over Nvidia.
Its what people want, get over it and move along.
 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
277
136
Originally posted by: Crusader
lol.. the few extremely verbal ATI fans here just cant stand the fact that people want quality Geforce boards that run cool and quiet :thumbsup: or AMDs best platform, the Nforce.. the stuff just works right and people dont want to mess with dongles, unproven motherboards, or loud cards that require far more juice than performance advantage they output over Nvidia.
Its what people want, get over it and move along.

err the 7600GT and the 7900GT are very loud if using the stock fan. Just = to ATI counterparts. So I am a tad bit confused on your statement, the 7900GTX has the good stock cooler but you pay 100$ more then the 1900XTX which 100$ can provide a damn good fan replacement. So I wish I knew what you are talking about.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
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Well, for every person who buys a 7900gt(x), that's one more who will lhave a slower card then me, so I dont mind, really...:D
 

openwheelformula1

Senior member
Sep 2, 2005
727
0
0
5150joker, don't take me wrong I am no fanatic of either Nvidia nor ATI. Overclocking wise everyone can make a case either way. You wouldn't want me to link you to extremely high Nvidia overclcoks. However, Nvidia's 7 series runs much cooler and efficient. 7800GT and 7900GT are capable of passive coolilng. That's not something ATI can brag about. This day and age it's important to have both performance and efficiency. In fact efficiency is a vital part of the performance.

Image quality wise, it's really a myth depending on your setup. HTPC communities are overwhelmingly Nvidia favored. Partly due to efficiency, but partly due to Nvidia's PureVideo. There are countless of image comparisons that favor Nvidia as well as ATI. It all depends on the setup.

Performance wise, ATI doesn't have the edge either. 7900GTs hits the sweet spot in so many people's budget, and ATI has been very slow to respond. (Same as 7600GT) The amount of extreme enthusiasts are in the minority of minorities. Seriesouly what the difference between 65 and 70 frames? I'll still get the headshot with 30 frames.

With that said, I won't spend another dime on grahpic cards until someone offers HDCP over DVI. It's understandable that ATI has bad marketing strategy, but it's not excusable to have false advertising.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
0
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God this is strange, the x1' series in general overclocks very well w/o volt mods yet people are pushing the volt mod thing like its a convenience? I've seen nowhere that GT's overlocked to the max perform better than ati's clocked to the max, i've seen nowhere that GT's on average overclock higher percentage wise, so why would this be pushed so hard?


THis is too odd. First we get strange stories about old farts whose children were killed by ATI cards, then we have people claiming you shouldn't replace atI STOCK FANS because if voids the warranty but say you should volt mod 7900gt's, and now crusader is dropping FUD about stability.

Bring back Rollo! at least he was amusing.

 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Originally posted by: framerateuk
With the enthusiast gaming sector ATI do very well, and as far as OEM stuff theyre doing well too, its just in the casual sector they dont seem to be doing too well. Ati need to get their logo on more games, and have a "the way its meant to be played" type slogan and logo.

Exactly....I've never been a real fan of ATi, due to driver issues and such...(that, and I prefer companies such as XFX, BFG and eVGA)...but I don't want ATi to go under, or nV will suddenly have a monopoly...
 

Canterwood

Golden Member
May 25, 2003
1,138
0
0
Originally posted by: Crusader
lol.. the few extremely verbal ATI fans here just cant stand the fact that people want quality Geforce boards that run cool and quiet :thumbsup: or AMDs best platform, the Nforce.. the stuff just works right and people dont want to mess with dongles, unproven motherboards, or loud cards that require far more juice than performance advantage they output over Nvidia.
LoL, what a fvcking tool.
The POS cooler on my 7900GT is the loudest cooler I've ever had on a video card.
It ran constantly at 100% and I was forced to buy a Zalman cooler just to shut the fvcking thing up.

It was also necessary to overclock the POS just to get it comparible in speed to an X1800XT, which, in the UK can be bought for £70 cheaper than I paid for my GT from one of the biggest etailers in the country.

Frankly I'll be sticking this 7900GT POS on ebay shortly cos I'm really not that impressed with it tbh.
 

tvdang7

Platinum Member
Jun 4, 2005
2,242
5
81
Originally posted by: munky
Well, for every person who buys a 7900gt(x), that's one more who will lhave a slower card then me, so I dont mind, really...:D

LOL Big Balla! i would feel the same.

and whats all this marketing talk. you make it sound like nvidia has it on commercials or something. i see both companies advertised throughout the computer enthusiasts website so im sure they both are advertised correctly unless there is something im missing?
 

imported_ST

Senior member
Oct 10, 2004
733
0
0
Originally posted by: munky
How exactly is slower performance and worse IQ better?


so why again aren't you running HDR+AA for Oblivion on your X1900? o_O

"...was playing at 1280x960 with maxed out settings (HDR but no AA) and the frames would sometimes drop into the 20's outside..."
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
0
0
why has this turned into a performance arguement? what part does that play in sales numbers? why can't you people act civilized...oh wait this is the video forum.

carry on.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,552
136
Repost. And my take is, except for Newegg, no one goes on record. I won't argue with nVidia selling more cards but I question it being an overwhelming number compared to ATI. The article is also not scientifically accurate so it can't be taken as an indication of the market as a whole, merely that of those retailers surveyed, nVidia was the better selling card.

Here's my take, nVidia did not have such shortages when they were the unquestioned performance leader for 6+ months with their 7800 vs the X800's due to the X1800's being late. It's strange that with such a performance lead and running on 110nm (theoretically less cores per wafer) they would be able to fulful demand while on a 90nm process which should enable more cores per wafer and losing any real performance advantage they are unable to fulfil demand. Spring/Summer should be the slow season for computers as well.

Without access to any hard data, my own take is that ATI's cards are selling well and certainly not doing as bad as the fanboys would indicate. However, nVidia has a much better reputation and that's helping push it past ATI's sales numbers. And in truth, I don't really think you can go wrong with either card as performance is pretty similar barring the traditional strengths and weaknesses of ATI and nVidia in certain type of games. This would account for some of the extra demand for nVidia cards but again, nVidia should be able to produce more cards due to 90nm. I would have to say that, while things aren't going bad, the shrink to 90nm is probably not going as good as nVidia hopes and that actual yield is probably at this time about on par with 110nm but with cores that can be pushed higher. These are just my opinions and should not be taken as fact.

As for Crusader, he mostly talks out of his rear. Too many times I asked him to prove what he said and was met with silence. Most recently, he said the Steam survey was an accurate representation of actual sales of video cards. The Steam survey had an overwhelming nVidia presence. I asked him for proof...and well...I haven't heard from him. This is not the only example, just the most recent. Lotta BS, lotta lies.
 

Jules

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,213
0
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Originally posted by: ST
Originally posted by: munky
How exactly is slower performance and worse IQ better?


so why again aren't you running HDR+AA for Oblivion on your X1900? o_O

"...was playing at 1280x960 with maxed out settings (HDR but no AA) and the frames would sometimes drop into the 20's outside..."

X1900xt HDR+AA Ftw.
 

imported_ST

Senior member
Oct 10, 2004
733
0
0
Originally posted by: MyStupidMouth
Originally posted by: ST
Originally posted by: munky
How exactly is slower performance and worse IQ better?


so why again aren't you running HDR+AA for Oblivion on your X1900? o_O

"...was playing at 1280x960 with maxed out settings (HDR but no AA) and the frames would sometimes drop into the 20's outside..."

X1900xt HDR+AA Ftw.

1 liners ftl =/

maybe you can explain why he doesn't utilize hdr+aa, except at lower res (1024x768)?

Or better yet, actually help some of your fellow ATI brotherins and their problems with X1900s and performance issues : http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1844863&enterthread=y

 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,686
787
126
The speed factor is really a toss-up, depending on what games are important to you and what settings you use. The 7900 GTX is equal or faster in all but one of my games. At the normal prices I would still have bought an X1900 (the XT and XTX are cheaper by about $80 and $50 respectively) especially given the HQ AF feature, but at the recent Dell discount, the 7900 GTX was $43 less than the XTX and $33 more than the XT, so I went for that.

I think I may have made the wrong decision though, not for speed reasons, but stability. I probably would have taken a slower card that doesn't cause alt-tab BSODs in some of my older games. I hadn't realized the likely cause of those crashes at the time and kept thinking they had something to do with SLI, as I never got them on my old 6800 GT.

As for features, the main things for me are HQ AF and SSAA. The Nvidia 2x2 SSAA mode is useful in a few old games that don't work with MSAA, while the HQ AF sounds much better than the crap AF on the 7 series cards. I don't consider HDR+AA useful, as you have to compromise on the resolution or framerate far too much for my liking. ATI still has an advantage in features though when you add in the software voltage controls and the smartshader thing.

On a side note, has anyone here done the 7900 GTX voltmod? It's not as simple as the 7900 GT one, but you can apparently get nice results on just the stock cooler (750mhz or so seems to be doable). I might give it a try at some point.
 

imported_Crusader

Senior member
Feb 12, 2006
899
0
0
Originally posted by: akugami
As for Crusader, he mostly talks out of his rear. Too many times I asked him to prove what he said and was met with silence. Most recently, he said the Steam survey was an accurate representation of actual sales of video cards. The Steam survey had an overwhelming nVidia presence. I asked him for proof...and well...I haven't heard from him. This is not the only example, just the most recent. Lotta BS, lotta lies.

It was proven with the GF6 series as far as the correlation between Valve and actual sales. Its represenative, but I'm not searching out the relevant threads that drew this out. I'm just telling you that it came out that way.
If you have proof saying it doesnt correlate, then I'll have to dig up the proof showing that it does.. but you have no such proof and none is available. Yet the sales numbers did line up near to the Valve survey in the X800/GF6 days.
If you dont remember this finding on the forums, then you might want to search for it. I do remember it.

Originally posted by: tvdang7and whats all this marketing talk. you make it sound like nvidia has it on commercials or something. i see both companies advertised throughout the computer enthusiasts website so im sure they both are advertised correctly unless there is something im missing?

Well. Check out the Get in The Game site, then check out The Way Its Meant To Be Played for one... GITG sucks and theres even dead links on the page and it references the X800s still!
Also just read the product descriptions of the X1900s and then read the GF7900 descriptions on NVs site.. the X1900 site reads like a 8 year old wrote their marketing material.

Im not even bashing.. but this sort of stuff is a good example as to how ATI sucks at marketing bigtime.

If you check out their "X1K Image Quality" page they keep saying "NOT SO WITH ATI!".. it just reads funny if you read the page.
I'd definitely change it if I ran their marketing materials..

Originally posted by: Canterwood
LoL, what a fvcking tool.
The POS cooler on my 7900GT is the loudest cooler I've ever had on a video card.
It ran constantly at 100% and I was forced to buy a Zalman cooler just to shut the fvcking thing up.

It was also necessary to overclock the POS just to get it comparible in speed to an X1800XT, which, in the UK can be bought for £70 cheaper than I paid for my GT from one of the biggest etailers in the country.

Frankly I'll be sticking this 7900GT POS on ebay shortly cos I'm really not that impressed with it tbh.

As far as you.. you are a noob dude. Nothing else to say.

If the 7900GT is the loudest cooler you've heard then you dont have any experience in this market. Its not even close. Sorry.
Enjoy that X1900 if you think the 7900GT is loud.
 

Ika

Lifer
Mar 22, 2006
14,264
3
81
Originally posted by: MyStupidMouth
Originally posted by: ST
Originally posted by: munky
How exactly is slower performance and worse IQ better?


so why again aren't you running HDR+AA for Oblivion on your X1900? o_O

"...was playing at 1280x960 with maxed out settings (HDR but no AA) and the frames would sometimes drop into the 20's outside..."

X1900xt HDR+AA Ftw.

7900GT + $100 FTW.

pick your priorities, 100 bucks or better game quality? me, i'm a cheapo; i would rather get $100 bucks.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
Originally posted by: ST
Originally posted by: munky
How exactly is slower performance and worse IQ better?


so why again aren't you running HDR+AA for Oblivion on your X1900? o_O

"...was playing at 1280x960 with maxed out settings (HDR but no AA) and the frames would sometimes drop into the 20's outside..."

actually i run hdr+aa on my x1800xt @ 700mHz/1600mHz (1440x800WS, 4xAAA/16xHQAF, all details high except grass_shadows OFF).

it does drop into the low 20's from time to time outdoors, but it's not an issue with an RPG. if i want to keep it near 30 outdoors i can simply use 2xAA w/o the "adaptive".

hell, a 7900GT runs low 20's outdoors with HDR/NO AA lol, so i'm not sure why you would want to pick THAT subject to argue:

1600 HDR 0xAA/8xAF
x1800xt 39.9fps
7900gt 24 fps

perhaps you should pick another point to talk smack about ati performance?
 

imported_ST

Senior member
Oct 10, 2004
733
0
0
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
Originally posted by: ST
Originally posted by: munky
How exactly is slower performance and worse IQ better?


so why again aren't you running HDR+AA for Oblivion on your X1900? o_O

"...was playing at 1280x960 with maxed out settings (HDR but no AA) and the frames would sometimes drop into the 20's outside..."

actually i run hdr+aa on my x1800xt @ 700mHz/1600mHz (1440x800WS, 4xAAA/16xHQAF, all details high except grass_shadows OFF).

it does drop into the low 20's from time to time outdoors, but it's not an issue with an RPG. if i want to keep it near 30 outdoors i can simply use 2xAA w/o the "adaptive".

hell, a 7900GT runs low 20's outdoors with HDR/NO AA lol, so i'm not sure why you would want to pick THAT subject to argue:

1600 HDR 0xAA/8xAF
x1800xt 39.9fps
7900gt 24 fps

perhaps you should pick another point to talk smack about ati performance?


it was not a point, but a mere question since you munky (on an alias i presume?) didn't answer it in the original thread ( http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1844863&enterthread=y ) . When I come back home from my current business trip, I'll have a chance to post my fps comparitively as well on a volt moded 7900GT.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
well, no munky is certainly not me, lol... and frankly rather illogical for you to think so.

still, you cannot post comparitively, as your hardware is not capable of running HDR and AA at the same time.

also, here's a review of XFX's XXX version (560Mhz/1.32GHz) which shows the GT needs to run at a substantially higher clock than reference just to keep up with even an x1800xt (mine is clocked a bit higher, but i didn't need to void my warranty to do so, nor did i need a conductive pen!), let alone an x1900xt.

the 7900GT is certainly a nice card and it has its share of strengths, but the ati cards certainly have their strengths as well (strong performance, lower price vs nv, and more features). i just found it amusing you used one of the nvidia's weaknesses (oblivion performance, lack of ability to run both HDR & AA) to try and put down the ati card.
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,499
560
126
Wow, this is old "news".

1. There are zero facts to back up their claims of 4 to 1 in some reselers. You're taking their baseless claims, and making a huge blanket statement that it carries over to all stores, and thats just dumb.
2. Thats not the reason they are scarce.

Want proof? The 7800GTX and 7800GT were NEVER in such low supply. Why is the 7900 series? The 7800 series at launch pretty much had no competition, since ATi was late with their X1800's. So anyone wanting a high end card, had only NV to look at. That is far from the case today, as ATi has cards to compete in price, and performance. What does that tell you? It tells me that NV sold more 7800 cards in the same time frame as the 7900 series, all the while never having the availability problems that they have now, and the 7800 series was WELL under MSRP. While that is not the case with the 7900 series.

Originally posted by: guoziming
7900GT + $100 FTW.

pick your priorities, 100 bucks or better game quality? me, i'm a cheapo; i would rather get $100 bucks.

X1800XT is cheaper than the 7900's, and can have the game quality you speak of.
 

Cookie Monster

Diamond Member
May 7, 2005
5,161
32
86
Its either demand or yield problems. But looking at this article, NV produces WAY more GPU dies per wafer compared to ATI and infact cheaper to produce each GPU die due to decreasing unwanted transistors and smaller GPU die to boot. I dont think yields are a problem. Simply demand for the card.

Link

Not only the cheaper to make but they are selling at a higher price!

That said, ATi's only option is probably to reduce price on existing cards. The X1900 series look really nice at those pricepoints but why arent they the ones going out of stock every hour compared to the 7900 series which are selling so fast its a matter of how fast you could click on the buy button.

I guess NV made a great impression through better marketing to the average joes but this sort of reminds me of intel/amd couple of years back. AMD had a great product but the pentium always outsold its competitor by quite a margin thanks to its much more effective and better marketing.

The thing is when you OC X1800/X1900 series, you have to deal with increased power usuage and increased heat as well. Some rarely OC at all, while others OC mad. But to most people the cards itself reaches 70~80C at load. Imagine what would happen by increasing the core clock? In case of a 7900GT it consumes 47~W at load. Compared to 120~W of the X1900XTX. A 7900GTX reaches 80~90W at load. So even with mad OCes on the 7900GT, the card is still cooler and consumes less power to boot as well.

Anyhow increased power usuage does infact mean more money toward your electricity bill. Sometimes its not good idea to have a power hungry card when your playing oblivion 24/7 at almost max settings :). But this is another matter.

IQ is really subjective and i agree with others who say this. You can barely notice the differences unless you play the game JUST to find the differences. However one thing that i have to note is that NV looks better on LCDs while ATi looks better on CRTs. Dont know why, but also NV cards get rid of LCD ghosting which is pretty good.

But at the end of the day, the card you buy is normally the better performer in the games you play. Im anticipating for Prey/Quake Wars/RTCW2 which are all openGL titles so i guess if i was to buy a card i would be looking at NV cards. Shader intensive titles? I would be looking at ATi cards especially the R580 core based cards.

edit - to Ackmed. You know why? we all know the G70 core is the NV47. The NV47 "was" supposedly the refresh of the NV45 to counter the R480 which was the X850 series refresh. However there was no need as the NV45 was neck to neck with the R480 and the "nv47" wouldve killed the idea of SLI at that time. (We all know a 7800GTX can kill a 6800GT SLI setup most of the time). NV had lots of time stocking "nv47" cores all over the place. This is why i am led to believe that NV had never faced any supply problems. but we also have to remember that most were waiting for the R520 to compare.