60 minutes eviscerates Lumber Liquidators

[MongGrel]

Sorry. I was just making a lame sarcastic comment about cheap flooring in a thread about problems with cheap flooring.

You're dissing my dining room, it still looks new after 25 years

 

[Hugo Drax]

80 percent of contractors suck at what they do and are always trying to figure out how to rip off the customer. the trades industry is really bad.

If the airline industry was piloted by contractors 90% of flights would result in hull losses and deaths.

 

[Humpy]

80 percent of contractors suck at what they do and are always trying to figure out how to rip off the customer. the trades industry is really bad.

This perception is why I now work as an accountant with a cushy government desk job and a big window. Halfway through my life I realized I would be best served following the advice of Yosemite Sam "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" Couldn't be happier.

 

[Humpy]

You're dissing my dining room, it still looks new after 25 years

Yeah, but what did it look like new?

 

[highland145]

The main issue that most consumers hard is it is VERY difficult to find out whether it is product A or B as it gets relabeled etc.. Even worse is cases where they label it as one thing and it is actually another. Sometimes consumers are willfully ignorant and they are to blame then, but a lot of times they are lied to.

Post 55
The problem is that Americans don't/didn't know. This is one area where testing/intervention by the government would be very welcome. Same with the food products that come in.

 

[MongGrel]

Yeah, but what did it look like new?

Crappy carpet.

 

[DrPizza]

It says "You can only float Armstrong engineered hardwood floors, not solid hardwoods." Be careful with marketing literature.

Depending on how it's milled, solid wood flooring can be edge glued to create a single layer floating floor. It can also be nailed down to non-fastened plywood to create a multi-layered floating floor. We use a lot of concrete slabs with radiant heat in my area where it would be risky to drive fasteners into the slab. In this instance the installers will often use the floating plywood with any hardwood over it and sometimes foam under to dampen noise. It can be over concrete or any other surface.

The main thing that matters here is to understand the properties of the material and environment you are working with and managing expectations. For example, wood flooring over concrete isn't really the issue. One issue is moisture moving through concrete, or temperature differences causing condensation, that leads to unexpected movement of the flooring. Those things can be controlled.

Thank you!

 

[Zorkorist]

Our Government protects us from such things!

LOL... go to hell 50 minutes!

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Obviously not.

If we didn't have this false perception, that Government protects us, then we would ask more questions, including, this is from China? I know they don't adhere to the standards we ask for in America. Why is it cheaper?

-John

 

[brycejones]

Obviously not.

If we didn't have this false perception, that Government protects us, then we would ask more questions, including, this is from China? I know they don't adhere to the standards we ask for in America. Why is it cheaper?

-John

Yeah but in your world there would be no regulation even making this an issue in the first place.

 

[Ns1]

here's the article

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lumber-liquidators-linked-to-health-and-safety-violations/

daaaaaaaaaaaamn

 

[holden j caufield]

I actually have a problem with people betting on a company's failure. In this case it may lead to discovering a potential hazard but it seems very shady that you can short a company and then go about trying to destroying it.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

^^^I was reading about that. I agree however in this case the ends justify the means.

 

[Cerb]

I actually have a problem with people betting on a company's failure. In this case it may lead to discovering a potential hazard but it seems very shady that you can short a company and then go about trying to destroying it.

True. OTOH, suspecting illegal behavior seems to be a key reason they were shorting it.

 

[DrPizza]

I actually have a problem with people betting on a company's failure. In this case it may lead to discovering a potential hazard but it seems very shady that you can short a company and then go about trying to destroying it.

At first, I was going to agree. But then, you need to remember - what these people are doing is balancing out the people who are cutting corners to make the stock go up.

 

[Genx87]

The more I read about this story the more interesting it gets. The people bringing the lawsuit are also shorting the stock? Seems a bit a conflict of interest no? Also this other guy Tilson basically admits to insider trading when he says he was tipped off about these issues months ago from somebody in China. Sounds like a movie script.

 

[Blanky]

The more I read about this story the more interesting it gets. The people bringing the lawsuit are also shorting the stock? Seems a bit a conflict of interest no? Also this other guy Tilson basically admits to insider trading when he says he was tipped off about these issues months ago from somebody in China. Sounds like a movie script.

It is a conflict of interest of course. However, if their desire to see the stock trashed ends up in proof that LL broke actual laws, their underhanded motivations can nonetheless serve the greater good, rather like if I shot a gun in the air randomly, an immoral action, but the bullet ends up falling down into the skull of somebody about to commit a mass murder.

If I hate my neighbor and want to see him kicked out of the neighborhood, and this ends up being one of the reasons I report him for domestic violence, but that domestic violence, independent of my raising the issue to police, ends up alone being legitimate and getting him kicked out, does my original reason really matter?

 

[Subyman]

Perhaps you mean Allen Roth. I bought a thousand square feet of Allen Roth from Lowes on Saturday. Not a great deal about the product online, but it seems to be made by Unilin, and when I contacted Lowes yesterday online the guy on the chat window assured me the stuff is made in the USA. If it shows up at the store with Made in China stickers, just to be safe, I will refuse delivery and buy something else. This stuff is well reviewed, though, and $1.99/square 10mm with pad already attached. pergo is $2.50. There is also clickable hardwood (bamboo of various colors), which is compelling, but not at the $5/square cost.

I'm installing that exact laminate in a reno right now. The pad attached is nice, but that means it isn't a proper vapor barrier because it doesn't fully cover the subfloor. I'm putting 15lb tar paper under it as I go.

I already have the stuff at the house, so I can check to see where it is marked from. I'm not worried at all about it though.

A question I have is if the formaldehyde is even dangerous when used in the flooring. Is it only dangerous when cutting it? Or does it out gas over time? I've used that super cheap crap before and never again. Anything less than 10mm is garbage IMO.

Someone mentioned vinyl flooring. I've put down a lot of that stuff in bathrooms. I wouldn't want it anywhere other than that right now. It looks like plastic to me. I don't like the look at all in large spaces. Reminds me of a gym floor.

 

[brycejones]

A question I have is if the formaldehyde is even dangerous when used in the flooring. Is it only dangerous when cutting it? Or does it out gas over time?

It out gasses.

 

[Subyman]

It out gasses.

That is unfortunate.

 

[Cerb]

It is a conflict of interest of course. However, if their desire to see the stock trashed ends up in proof that LL broke actual laws, their underhanded motivations can nonetheless serve the greater good, rather like if I shot a gun in the air randomly, an immoral action, but the bullet ends up falling down into the skull of somebody about to commit a mass murder.

Hardly. If Tilson and friends' account is is the truth of the matter, then there isn't any conflict; they just found the reason why the financials looked odd in the first place, and are in the best position to try to do something about it, having an interest, and evidence. No randomness, or serendipity.

Tilson may technically have run afoul of insider trading regulations, but if this all turns out to be true, will likely be treated more as a whistleblower. I don't see any underhanded motivations, personally. If this is as bad as expected (IE, the board members knew), then LL deserves far more punishment than they could possibly receive. If it was middle management, or some isolated part of LL, then they need to be hammered, and forced to reorganize, with some oversight, auditing, and product testing. In addition, the public at large needs to be aware that this crap didn't end with FEMA trailers being swept under the rug. The investors bringing suit have the best means to help get it done. Enlightened self-interest may sound noble, but it may get a bit dirty when it comes to practicing it.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Well scratch lumber liquidators off business I'd buy stuff from. Apparently they like they're suppliers too much.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/03/13/news/companies/lumber-liquidators-chinese/index.html

 

[who?]

Lumber Liquidators claims that the laminate seals in the formaldehyde but the state of California doesn't buy that reasoning. Are you not supposed to cut the flooring?

 

[who?]

http://www.npr.org/2015/03/13/39276...-defends-its-products-after-60-minutes-report

 

[Blanky]

Lumber Liquidators claims that the laminate seals in the formaldehyde but the state of California doesn't buy that reasoning. Are you not supposed to cut the flooring?

Well it would seal the top, and I don't think the cutting is the problem because it is off gassing over time.

Of course, the top sealed is stupid for the same reason if I hold a plastic bag in front of my butt and fart you'll still smell it; the gas could get through the edges of each piece and, more substantially, underneath into the sub floor. It's hardly an air tight setup.

I'm not going to take LL's word on the testing methods. Either they are lying or 60 minutes was. 60 minutes specifically identified a manufacturer (not by name) on camera who said he doesn't produce product to legal spec. So did 60 minutes lie about that? If so, I want to see a libel suit brought against them by LL. Otherwise, LL is trying to pull wool over our eyes.

The laminate I ordered recently from Lowes (just arrived this week) is Allen Roth brand and I'm assured it's made in the USA (boxes will affirm that, else won't be picked up). Why save a fraction of a dollar (at the most) to get something that may be Chinese and has extra poison baked into it?